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Artificial Horizon Instruments

Just waiting for it to come back from powder coat and labeling then she gets weighed. I chose to go with the back up compass, airspeed and altimeter for the sake of my own mind set. They are simple and not much weight added. IMO

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Just waiting for it to come back from powder coat and labeling then she gets weighed. I chose to go with the back up compass, airspeed and altimeter for the sake of my own mind set. They are simple and not much weight added. IMO

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compass will not work there well, if at all... swap to other side away from all the electrical/magnetism
 
My vertical card compass worked very well in the panel like that - for a while. Then it decided I was ALWAYS headed east and I could not correct it, even with the external compensation balls. A SIRS didn't help any either, so I returned that. I moved the vertical card unit to the top of the left windshield diagonal in an aluminum mount, right at the front of the left wing root. It's still working well there, been about a year now.
 
A guy on the BCP site installed one of the new Garmin G5's in his C180 and his mechanic signed it off as a minor.
Good deal if you can swing it, but these instruments are in a bit of a gray area as far as whether or not they are a minor or major alteration and so a lot of mechanics don't want to stick their neck out. I'm hoping that the FAA comes out with a clear-cut policy relaxing the requirements (for TSO's and whatever) which will allow us to install these safety-enhancing devices in our factory aircraft.
Here's a pic of a G5, about $1200 and all the flight info you could want (and then some!).

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The G5 does about half of what my iPhone/Garmin Pilot/GDL39-3D does now and I don't need approval for my phone. When I asked the Garmin engineers about using the G5 with my G3X Touch they asked why, when my iPhone will already do it all including bluetoothing to my G3X. I guess the G5 may have a niche but with smartphones and bluetooth ADHRS units I don't see it.
 
A guy on the BCP site installed one of the new Garmin G5's in his C180 and his mechanic signed it off as a minor.
Good deal if you can swing it, but these instruments are in a bit of a gray area as far as whether or not they are a minor or major alteration and so a lot of mechanics don't want to stick their neck out. I'm hoping that the FAA comes out with a clear-cut policy relaxing the requirements (for TSO's and whatever) which will allow us to install these safety-enhancing devices in our factory aircraft.
Here's a pic of a G5, about $1200 and all the flight info you could want (and then some!).

View attachment 26234
If you're worried about it, make sure you have the minimum instruments as per your TCDS. Then you can install as many G5's as you want as the TCDS requirements are being met. Remember that you can add to your instruments but you cannot replace a certified instrument with a non certified one. And CAR 3 does not require a TSO just to hang an item on an airplane.

Web
 
directly from the policy letter:

"Electronically-driven attitude indicatorsmay replace the existing attitude indicators used in VFR or IFR airplanes"

But I'm kinda confused about the policy statement-- it doesn't clarify if they're talking about equipment for IFR flight or VFR flight.
 
...make sure you have the minimum instruments as per your TCDS. Then you can install as many G5's as you want as the TCDS requirements are being met. Remember that you can add to your instruments but you cannot replace a certified instrument with a non certified one. And CAR 3 does not require a TSO just to hang an item on an airplane.

I agree, but I'm not an A&P, and unfortunately a lot of mechanics don't see it like this. Even one very reasonable IA who I've worked with before, and who has a lot of experience with old CAR 3 airplanes, isn't comfortable signing off a G5 or similar without an STC or field approval. There's actually two aspects to this: first of all, finding an A&P to sign it off as a minor installation. And secondly, in a future annual inspection possibly having an IA decline to sign off the airplane as airworthy with the EFD instrument installed.
 
I am toying with the idea of fitting 'Falcon Gage' Vacuum horizon and DI in our equivalent of an Experimental. However as they are uncertified and probably of far eastern origin was wondering if anyone out there had any experience as to their reliability - the price is right but would I be buying a load of trouble?
Thanks for your thoughts and experiences.
Frank
 
I am toying with the idea of fitting 'Falcon Gage' Vacuum horizon and DI in our equivalent of an Experimental. However as they are uncertified and probably of far eastern origin was wondering if anyone out there had any experience as to their reliability - the price is right but would I be buying a load of trouble?
Thanks for your thoughts and experiences.
Frank

I wouldn't install them. It's been my experience that they aren't very accurate and they don't hold up well over time.

Web
 
I ended up pulling the horizon & DG and installing a Garmin G5 as a minor alteration.
FWIW the G5 weighs a pound, but all the vacuum stuff I removed weighed 14.
My IA buddy talked to his maintenance inspector who gave it his blessing, however he said it would require a backup battery. The verbiage he sent along was clipped right out of the policy statement mentioned earlier.

So using the policy statement as a basis for approval, you can install the non-STC'd set-up which only costs $1400. But about a month ago, Garmin came out with an STC for the G5. $2150 for unit and STC, and I'm betting Garmin will sell a lot of them. Lots of people (including mechanics) will feel better going that route, or won't know about the policy statement (and I'm sure garmin won't mention it!).

Either way you go, the bummer is that the G5 is only approved for use as an attitude indicator and turn-and-slip indicator, so for IFR use you'd still need a vacuum or electric DG.
 
Per the AvWeb press release for the G5 STC:
" When installed per the STC, the G5 will be approved for use as a primary attitude and turn coordinator instrument when installed in the six-pack instrument layout of 562 certified aircraft. The G5 will be approved for VFR and IFR flight and it has a 4-hour emergency backup battery."
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Garmin-Announces-STC-For-Its-Experimental-G5-Flight-Instrument-226600-1.html

From a similar AIN online press release:
"[FONT=&quot]The [/FONT][FONT=&quot]G5[/FONT][FONT=&quot] fits in standard 3.125-inch instrument holes and can replace either the existing attitude indicator or turn coordinator, and it is certified for[/FONT][FONT=&quot]VFR[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]IFR[/FONT][FONT=&quot] operations “as a primary source for aircraft attitude or turn coordination information and secondary source for altitude, airspeed and vertical speed in a single instrument,” according to Garmin"
[/FONT]
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/2016-07-24/garmin-g5-efis-stcd-certified-aircraft[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

If the G5 is installed as a minor alteration, the policy statement says you can replace a vacuum attitude indicator with an electronic one. But it doesn't say a word about replacing the directional indicator.
See page 3:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgPolicy.nsf/0/6a24902ae5f1aeac86257ec1005b2fbc/$FILE/PS-ACE-23-08.pdf
 
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Thanks all for the interesting and informative replies. It seems that 'Falcon Gage' is not the best value for money with regard to longevity and accuracy. While electronic wizardry is possibly the way to go I will stick to vacuum for the sake of authenticity - My 'Other aircraft' - 1944 Fairchild UC61K.
Frank
 
If the G5 is installed as a minor alteration, the policy statement says you can replace a vacuum attitude indicator with an electronic one. But it doesn't say a word about replacing the directional indicator.
See page 3:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgPolicy.nsf/0/6a24902ae5f1aeac86257ec1005b2fbc/$FILE/PS-ACE-23-08.pdf
From this Policy Statement on page 3 item 1. "...may also be replaced with an electronically-driven attitude indicator that provides a secondary (advisory) function (such as turn & slip indication)."

The directional gyro instrument IS a secondary instrument. The primary directional instrument is the required magnetic compass. You may not have thought this to be the case since one tends to use the DG as a primary directional indicator. If you have been using an HSI with a remote magnetic source, you have already been using a secondary electric directional indicator. SO you will only be replacing one old standby electric DG with a new standby electric DG.

The question would be, and I'm not sure that it would be relevant for this purpose, "what is the source of the new directional information?". Is the source GPS information or is it magnetically derived? If it is GPS info, you would not have the ability to determine drift angle since the information would be track not heading.
 
The G5's directional info is GPS derived.
Still not convinced the G5 would be approved as a substitute for the DG, for IFR use.
Is the DG a required instrument for IFR?
 
The actual STC for the Garmin G5 seems to allow the G5 to replace either the "Attitude Indicator" OR the "Rate of Turn Indicator" but not both. If I'm reading this right, the "Rate of Turn Indicator" would not be the Directional Gyro, but the "Turn and Slip" or "Turn Coordinator", right?

The STC includes a "Limitations and Conditions" section that says (in part):
2) The installation of the G5 requires the retention of the mechanical airspeed indicator, altimeter, and vertical speed indicator. If the G5 is installed as the primary attitude, it requires retention of the existing rate of turn indicator. If installed in place of the rate of turn indicator, it requires retention of the existing primary attitude indicator.

The STC doesn't seem to say anything at all about keeping the Directional Gyro. Given that the mag compass is the "primary" heading instrument, and that the G5 would have GPS-derived track info, would it be possible to dump the DG as well and the AI, and just keep the T&B indicator?
 
The G5's directional info is GPS derived.
Still not convinced the G5 would be approved as a substitute for the DG, for IFR use.
Is the DG a required instrument for IFR?

Yes, the Directional Gyro is part of the required equipment for IFR flight: FAR 91.205:

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.
(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:
(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in §121.305(j) of this chapter; and
(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of ±80 degrees of pitch and ±120 degrees of roll and installed in accordance with §29.1303(g) of this chapter.
(4) Slip-skid indicator.
(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.
(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.
(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.
(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).
(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).

Note the "or equivalent", which likely would be a flight director in general. Nevertheless, an instrument with GPS derived directional data is probably not going to be acceptable.

MTV
 
The actual STC for the Garmin G5 seems to allow the G5 to replace either the "Attitude Indicator" OR the "Rate of Turn Indicator" but not both. If I'm reading this right, the "Rate of Turn Indicator" would not be the Directional Gyro, but the "Turn and Slip" or "Turn Coordinator", right?
Right.

I take back what I said above, a DG is required. See here: FAR 91.205(d)(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...D97FA35A1232A3988625768F005C12DE?OpenDocument
Your out would be the word (equivalent).

oops, Mike typed while I went to dinner. I would argue with the FAA on the meaning of "or equivalent".
 
From this Policy Statement on page 3 item 1. "...may also be replaced with an electronically-driven attitude indicator that provides a secondary (advisory) function (such as turn & slip indication)."

The directional gyro instrument IS a secondary instrument. The primary directional instrument is the required magnetic compass. You may not have thought this to be the case since one tends to use the DG as a primary directional indicator. If you have been using an HSI with a remote magnetic source, you have already been using a secondary electric directional indicator. SO you will only be replacing one old standby electric DG with a new standby electric DG.

The question would be, and I'm not sure that it would be relevant for this purpose, "what is the source of the new directional information?". Is the source GPS information or is it magnetically derived? If it is GPS info, you would not have the ability to determine drift angle since the information would be track not heading.


I need to buy you a beer for this post!

Thanks
 
From the FAR's cited in posts 51 & 52, a directional gyro IS required.
The Garmin G5 STC apparently does not approve it as a substitute for a DG, nor does the policy statment.
You might be able to get a field approval to substitute it, as in one G5 for attitude and another (below it?) for DG--
as per a recent article in AOPA Pilot magazine.
But probably not.
 
The actual STC for the Garmin G5 seems to allow the G5 to replace either the "Attitude Indicator" OR the "Rate of Turn Indicator" but not both. If I'm reading this right, the "Rate of Turn Indicator" would not be the Directional Gyro, but the "Turn and Slip" or "Turn Coordinator", right? ........

Better to install the G5 using the policy statement as an approval basis.
From page 3 of the PS:
"1. A single function vacuum-driven attitude indicator may be replaced with a single primary function electronically-driven attitude indicator. A single function vacuum-driven attitude indicator may also be replaced with an electronically-driven attitude indicator that provides a secondary (advisory) function (such as turn & slip indication)." There are several other conditions, the remainder of page 3 lists them.

The Primay Flight Display (PFD) page on the G5 provides rate-of-turn and turn-and-slip (ball) indicators at the bottom of the display.
 
Yeah, but it costs $3600 and has no directional information.
But if a guy wanted to lose his airspeed indicator & altimeter AND the artificial horizon, that might be the way to go.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...-attitude-indicator-also-certified-as-primary

So you can replace your horizon with this unit as a minor per the FAA policy statement.I'm not sure what you have to do as far as paperwork if you want it to also replace your airspeed and altimeter. From the linked article:

"Sandia Aerospace’s solid-state SAI 340 Quattro four-in-one attitude, altitude, airspeed, and slip standby instrument has received FAA technical standard order approval, the company announced Oct. 22. It can augment traditional six-pack steam-gauge instrument panels as a primary attitude indicator and can be used as a backup attitude indicator in glass-cockpit aircraft.
Additionally, Sandia founder Dennis Schmidt said the FAA sign-off allows the unit to replace an existing vacuum attitude indicator as a minor installation under the the FAA’s new policy statement for Part 23 aircraft."



 
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The Sandia is a really nice certified unit, considered it for my backup. I understand that a local A&P had to go through a lot to get just two Garmin units, he says, "because they have moved to certified quickly, are inundated with orders on that side,......and are going to be charging more for both."

Before the garmin was available I installed the L-3 ESI-500 with svt when I converted my 185 panel to all electric. Pricy, but has it's own adahars, will couple with the AP and is a full function display with battery back up. Can even display ILS info. Heading, alt, att, airspeed, nav, terrain, and so on. Great little piece. Was thinking about using one in a cub build as its size and weight are both low. Admittedly overkill for many applications. Haven't played with the Garmin yet, but can see some possible advantages. Very happy with the L-3.

Perhaps the reason for the priciness of the L-3 and the Sandia is that they were built and marketed to the glass panel jet crowd. Doubt cubs or 185s were on their mind during development, but this market segment is changing quickly. The addition of the Garmin unit to the market place could get them all competing, which is good for us.
 
I've enjoyed flying with the Dynon D2 in my VFR panel. It's easy to read and seems to be rock solid (as rock solid as any GPS derived unit can be). I only have a few hours on it, so time will tell.
 
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