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Thread: Building an Experimental PA11

  1. #281

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    I could only get 2200 static with the 76AK. That’s 100 less than the Catto

  2. #282
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    I could only get 2200 static with the 76AK. That’s 100 less than the Catto
    Please try w/o the air filter as well. The cam and ignition timing of the O-200 is different than for a C-90....made more for higher rpm horsepower with short C-150 prop, I suspect. Specs are in the overhaul manual for each. C-90 max rated 90 hp at 2475; 95 hp at 2625 5 min. O-200 100 hp @ 2750, etc. You have a C-90 on the "T". What's the static on that with that prop?

    However, JimC used to report good things about the O-200's here and elsewhere. He developed a graph that I have that showed the O-200 mo betta' at all rpms. Guess it all depends on prop-carb-ignition timing-compression-cam-intake-exhaust. The Piper exhaust may be more restrictive than say a C-150 exhaust for example. Same for air filters.

    Gary
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  3. #283
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    Make sure your carb heat is fully off and flapper leakage minimal. Make sure your throttle throw is fully open. Confirm magneto timing is correct. Try static w and w/o air filter. Compare static to your C-90 as mentioned. It would also be nice to confirm compression and check if valve timing and lift is per specs with a degree wheel on the crank. In other words make sure the O-200 is sound before chasing props. The C-90's are a torquey engine. The intake valve closes a few degrees earlier than the O-200 which helps some.

    Gary

  4. #284

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    Same result without air filter. Anyone know the best setup for a Marvel carb on an O-200? Like a start point and then fine tune. The idle mixture may be slightly rich as I occasionally get a stumble on takeoff...usually on a touch and go or full stop and then go again....any pointers on optimizing this?

    compressions are 77,78,78,76
    timing is 24 degrees (old serial number cylinders).
    engine has 300 Ish hrs on top and 30 on lower (new bearings after tear down and internals magnafluxed and yellow tagged) I can get over 2800 on full throttle in cruise.

  5. #285
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    0200 is like a 2 stroke bike, needs to rev. I had a 7636 catto on my 0200 cub and got about what you got. The 7440 1b90 was worse, my stroker will turn the Mac 2550 on takeoff

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    Same result without air filter. Anyone know the best setup for a Marvel carb on an O-200? Like a start point and then fine tune. The idle mixture may be slightly rich as I occasionally get a stumble on takeoff...usually on a touch and go or full stop and then go again....any pointers on optimizing this?

    compressions are 77,78,78,76
    timing is 24 degrees (old serial number cylinders).
    engine has 300 Ish hrs on top and 30 on lower (new bearings after tear down and internals magnafluxed and yellow tagged) I can get over 2800 on full throttle in cruise.
    Stumble sounds lean?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  7. #287
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    Best to compare the C-90 to O-200's performance with that AK76 prop.

    Accelerator pump has three adjustments. See MA-3-SPA Manual for troubleshooting and options. Page 2-3 and Fig. 4.

    Edit: Install a manifold pressure gauge. Note the indicated ambient pressure prior to takeoff. Note it WFO near the ground as safe. Should be close like within 2" or even less if the engine's volumetrically efficient. Note at idle. Should be low around 10"+- if the engine is tight internally and intake leak-free. Also good for setting power and detecting carb ice early.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 06-08-2021 at 09:01 PM.

  8. #288

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    https://msacarbs.com/carburetor-troubleshooting/

    I feel like the Engine is fine...just need to turn it faster. I wasn’t surprised that the 76AK Was too much prop to spin fast. I would like to try the adjustable Sensenich....I wish I had bought one....at the time I was buying my Catto there was all that stuff about vibration/harmonics on an O-200...it was the 72” version then. The 76 adjustable sounds intriguing....but I could wrong. I love the ideas so far. I remember Glenn telling me a while back that he had not been happy with the 76-36 on his O200. I tried and seems like the same results he had. Nicole at Catto said you get 30-40 rpm per inch on static and 50-60 rpm per inch at max.....She can move it up to 3”...so the full 3” should get me 2390-2420 static and I’m thinking I’d gain 120-150 rpm on takeoff which would change my takeoff performance quite a bit
    Last edited by Dan Gervae; 06-08-2021 at 09:26 PM.

  9. #289
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    The C-150 seaplane w/ O-200 swinging a 1A90/CF75-35-38 range wants to see 2400 to 2500 static. That Sen AK76-2-40 I can run 2440+-15 static with the Stroker and max just over 2600. Apples and fresh oranges of course. I'd consider the Sen adjustable.

    But.....If I had a Taylorcraft C-90 capable of speed and a PA-11 O-200 capable of STOL I might swap engines. You have a beautiful plane that you're figuring out what it's for and how it's going to be used. My PA-11-90 on floats flew upper 80's - lmaybe ow 90's at the same 2400 rpm and prop (AK76-2-40) as my Taylorcraft now goes over a hundred. Fun choices Dan.

    Edit: How about 8.5:1 pistons and cylinders to put some lead in that pencil?

    I was born in Escanaba and lived in the UP 14 yrs. Nice place.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 06-08-2021 at 11:15 PM.

  10. #290
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    If you haven't already done so, you might want to check the tachs for accuracy too.

  11. #291

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    Quote Originally Posted by supercrow View Post
    If you haven't already done so, you might want to check the tachs for accuracy too.
    good point. I’ll borrow my buddies digital tach. I ran a static check on the C90 with the 76AK-2-40 and it statics around 2300. That’s 100 more than the O200 will spin it. Provided either of my analog tachometers are accurate. I do know that the plane performs fine (for an electric equipped 840 lb cub)....it’s been in the 90s here the last few days with DA nearing 4000’ so early mornings are when I’ve been flying. I just know when I put this thing on floats I’ll need to get more RPMs on takeoff for sure. That won’t happen until next year, but I’d like to get it sorted out. Again, my mission starts to point towards. Ground adjustable. I’d sure like to try one out. Anyone out there running a stock O-200 with the Sensenich 76” ground adjustable? I’d like a pirep before I make such a purchase.
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  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    ......so I can send my Catto for a re-pitch.......
    As I understand it, the Catto prop is wood with a composite covering.
    How do they repitch it?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  13. #293

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    They remove material from one side and add to the other, then recoat as I understand it. That's as far as my understanding goes though. Appearently it is fairly easy.....But I would sure like to see it done just to satify my curiosty.
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  14. #294
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    Building an Experimental PA11

    Dan Ive had two Sensenich 76 ground adjustable props, an early one on my C-90 (first of the new design) and then again on my O-290.
    Compared with the props used prior the C-90 took better advantage and really shined, but I was very happy with both, and would highly recommend it.

    On my C-90 it literally felt like I added 20-30 hp during the ground roll due to the rate of acceleration.

    Note : these two engines use two different props - the c85/90/o-200 uses a sq tip 76 and the o-290 was two blades from a 3-blade design that was more of a tapered ninja blade.
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  15. #295

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    After flying 20 hrs on my new plane, I then installed Stolspeed Vortex generators on my wings. After flight testing I noted the following:
    the wing comes to life faster on takeoff….it was noticeable. My stall speed decreased about 4 mph indicated….stall doesn’t break anymore…just mushes and recovers over and over…ailerons stay responsive.
    seems to indicate 3-4 mph faster in cruise.
    as I said though…most noticeable was on takeoff. I could feel it create lift sooner. Very typical results yes. Bottom line….stolspeed vgs are cheap improvement.
    mill install them on horizontal next after a little more flight testing
    Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #296
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    What % of chord station did you choose?

    Gary

  17. #297

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    What % of chord station did you choose?

    Gary
    directions said between 8-10%, then they said calculate 7% from leading edge, run your string line and place the front tips of the vgs at that location. This puts the high spot of the vgs at approx 8.8%
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  18. #298

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    I tested a few different VG locations on my flapless 11-like wing (Wag Aero leading edge is slightly rounder like the Husky leading edge so my milage my vary). I found I preferred the VGs slightly forward of the suggested installation station line. This was most noticeable during landing/stall attitudes, although they worked wonders during takeoff as well as you noted already.

    It is entirely possible the rounder leading edge on my wing caused this variance. However, I somewhat suspect our the lack of flaps and our AoA (relative wind) during flare is slightly higher thus requiring the VGs to be slightly forward to be able to vortex the air before the laminar flow interruption creeps up the rear of the wing.

    Update: I really suggest adding the VGs under the horizontal stab. That, and elevator gap seals helped immensely in a variety of ways. Your mileage may vary, but they work real well for me.
    Last edited by Colorado-Cub; 06-16-2021 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Added more info
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  19. #299

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    I landed last night at 38.6 hrs…all was grand. Plane has performed flawlessly…went to go tonight to fly the last of the 40 hrs off and as soon as I started I knew I had stuck a valve. I pulled the valve cover and # 3 exhaust valve was stuck open…I freed it with a rope, but now I’m trying to decide if I pull the jug and ream the guide, or try shoving the valve into the barrel with floss on the end and ream it out….I’m leaning towards pulling the jug. Stuck valves never fix themselves. Ugh! Wondering if it’s something I’m doing ? Over leaning??? Maybe it was morning sickness. Either way….gotta do something .

  20. #300
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    From above "Maybe it was morning sickness"

    6/8-21:
    #279 "Actually now that we are talking about this, my Catto has a strange harmonic at about 2375 as I’m just transitioning from liftoff to climb out ...only for a few seconds then it goes away"
    #284 "
    The idle mixture may be slightly rich as I occasionally get a stumble on takeoff...usually on a touch and go or full stop and then go again"
    "...
    engine has 300 Ish hrs on top and 30 on lower (new bearings after tear down and internals magnafluxed and yellow tagged)"

    Maybe it was talking to you earlier?

    Edit: If I were out in the bush and had a stuck valve - I'd apply Kroil or spray brake cleaner and tap it with my rubber hammer. They have it removed and repaired when back in town.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 07-12-2021 at 11:27 PM.

  21. #301

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    Before you pull a jug, drop it into the cylinder and run a flex-hone through the guide a few times. I was having fits with a sticky valve any time the OAT was under 40*F, did this, and it's been trouble free for 200+ hours now.
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  22. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    From above "Maybe it was morning sickness"

    6/8-21:
    #279 "Actually now that we are talking about this, my Catto has a strange harmonic at about 2375 as I’m just transitioning from liftoff to climb out ...only for a few seconds then it goes away"
    #284 "
    The idle mixture may be slightly rich as I occasionally get a stumble on takeoff...usually on a touch and go or full stop and then go again"
    "...
    engine has 300 Ish hrs on top and 30 on lower (new bearings after tear down and internals magnafluxed and yellow tagged)"

    Maybe it was talking to you earlier?

    Edit: If I were out in the bush and had a stuck valve - I'd apply Kroil or spray brake cleaner and tap it with my rubber hammer. They have it removed and repaired when back in town.

    Gary
    Ironically that went away after I indexed the prop 180 degrees. But I hear what your saying….it sure had been running well too. It’s not the end of the world. I’ll fix it right. It wasn’t stuck too bad and I hope I can get it feeling good again before Oshkosh/New Holstein.

  23. #303
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Hi Dan....I knew you got it figured out so my comments were just speculation. I hope it gets looked at.

    Actually there is a product that has been proven to remove valve and cylinder carbon. There are other brands but this is what I use. It was originally developed by the outboard motor industry that was forced to deal with carbon buildup prior to modern synthetic oils (they called it a motor tuner). Now it's popular when dealing with intake valve sticking in gasoline direct injection (GDI) motors that don't feed fuel upstream of that valve. Carbon forms from inducted crankcase fumes and stem leakage. The active ingredient is Polyether Amine and has been sold by Chevron as Techron fuel additive.

    Gary
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  24. #304
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    MMO


    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  25. #305

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    https://www.avweb.com/ownership/deal...-stuck-valves/

    I decided to call my IA…I told him I’d feel best if I reamed the valve guide. He offered to help as he has done it before and he will supply the proper reamer. Many say MMO, and I’m sure it has had its successes…this article says not to use it. What are your thoughts on this a web article?

  26. #306

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    Like others have said, it is obvious if an engine is running MMO just by taking off the rocker cover.

    I run it with good results, but for different reasons. My O235 makes lead no matter how lean you constantly run it and MMO has helped the buildup on piston tops and valve stems. In my case, it works better than TCP. Others may disagree...
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  27. #307

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    Also note that reaming the guide is good, but for the valve to stick, it will have buildup on the stem (possibly) like this:

    Click image for larger version. 

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  28. #308

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    I am borescoping all 4….we have an expensive flex cam at work that I can take pictures and video with if I want…nice led light on the end. I should be able to see the stems some with the valve open. I did shut it down hot when I landed the other night and it was stuck as soon as I started it. It will be interesting to see.
    compressions were high 70s when I checked them in May.
    Last edited by Dan Gervae; 07-13-2021 at 08:21 PM.
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  29. #309

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    I am willing to be it will be just fine after you ream it out. Good luck!

  30. #310
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Mogas or 100LL?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  31. #311
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    MMO is a solvent based oil. My 1300hr 33 hp mower stuck a valve last summer, bent the push rod. I freed it up with MMO, straighted the pushrod on my anvil and run a few ounces of MMO in the gas once in awhile an all is good

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  32. #312
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    ...I did shut it down hot when I landed the other night and it was stuck as soon as I started it...
    That can be a problem especially if the exhaust valve is still open when stopped. The hot valve has to get rid of the heat and w/o a seat to contact it drains though the guide plus springs and rocker arm. Any gunk in the guide or on the valve stem and it can make glue. Cool it off some before shutdown.

    Gary
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  33. #313
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    Building an Experimental PA11

    I had 3 stuck valves, did the rope trick to unstick & also reamed the guides and buffed the valve stems as much as possible. Everyone recommended MMO, so I tried it. Made it home then up to the Idaho backcountry and two of the exhaust valves started sticking again, less than 20 hrs after the reaming exercise. Removed the cylinders & had them overhauled by a reputable engine shop. A lot of time & money spent and the overhauled jugs got me about 400 hrs before two more valves were sticking. Bit the bullet and overhauled the engine & found a spalled cam shaft. 2400SMOH when I did the OH. If I had to do it over again, Id have done the reaming enough to make it home, then overhaul the engine or install new cylinders. The MMO and overhaul of worn out tired cylinders were both a waste of time and money. IMHO

    windy


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  34. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by windy View Post
    I had 3 stuck valves, did the rope trick to unstick & also reamed the guides and buffed the valve stems as much as possible. Everyone recommended MMO, so I tried it. Made it home then up to the Idaho backcountry and two of the exhaust valves started sticking again, less than 20 hrs after the reaming exercise. Removed the cylinders & had them overhauled by a reputable engine shop. A lot of time & money spent and the overhauled jugs got me about 400 hrs before two more valves were sticking. Bit the bullet and overhauled the engine & found a spalled cam shaft. 2400SMOH when I did the OH. If I had to do it over again, Id have done the reaming enough to make it home, then overhaul the engine or install new cylinders. The MMO and overhaul of worn out tired cylinders were both a waste of time and money. IMHO

    windy


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    Mogas or 100LL?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  35. #315
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    Building an Experimental PA11

    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Mogas or 100LL?

    Glenn
    100LL. Im religious about leaning at the high DAs where I live & at all lower elevations too. The spark plugs rarely had more than a tiny lead glob or two and were always light gray. It was a LyCon engine. Cylinders were new Lyc nitride ones at the previous overhaul. It took me 8 years to put the 2400 hrs on the engine.
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  36. #316

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    I was unable to get the valve freed up enough to ream the guide on the plane. Also checked the pushrod….ever so slight wobble in a drill. There was a fair amount of crusty carbon build up on the springs and around the guides. I decided to buy 4 new jugs…about $1K each. I called Lycon and they said TCM Continental cylinders went up $700 on July 1st, so I decided to buy Superior Millenniums. They will be here Tuesday, so if I get it going I’ll still aim to fly into NES Holstein then Oshkosh. I have a puke of pushrods to weed through to find one serviceable/within tolerances. Since my cylinders are fairly low time I will see about cleaning them up and either build a spare motor, or keep them around as spares. Hopefully prices don’t get too out of control….but I decided to hedge my bets and buy the Millenniums while they are still “cheap” eye roll.
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  37. #317
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    From what I've read it helps to keep the oil from getting bulked up with combustion byproducts. That can lead to excessive deposits. How much is too much - not sure. Most oil filters won't remove the fines and of course the screen doesn't either. I'd not go more than 25 hrs between changes and maybe even less if the oil turns black quickly. Oil's cheap compared with parts replacement.

    Gary
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  38. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by windy View Post
    100LL. Im religious about leaning at the high DAs where I live & at all lower elevations too. The spark plugs rarely had more than a tiny lead glob or two and were always light gray. It was a LyCon engine. Cylinders were new Lyc nitride ones at the previous overhaul. It took me 8 years to put the 2400 hrs on the engine.
    I was asking because most little Continentals can't handle the lead and stick a valve. 100LL has 5 times the lead that 80 had

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  39. #319

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    Ok guys…I’m looking for advice…I’ve swapped one jug without pulling the motor, but I’m aiming to do all 4 on Wednesday and Thursday….is it worth the effort tho pull the motor and place on a stand? I fell like it could save some work not pulling it. Thoughts?

  40. #320
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    When I do it I leave it on the plane. By the time you take the engine off and put it back on you would have two cylinders swapped out


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