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Thread: Building an Experimental PA11

  1. #1

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    Building an Experimental PA11

    I decided to start a thread on my build. There's a thin chance that I will enlighten anyone with my building prowess....more likely I stand to benefit from the knowledge of this group at large I've shared pictures on other threads, but I'll start here so they are all in the same place.

    info:

    Scratch built fuselage PA11 style (back seat tubing is J3 style but I plan to remove the arch and vee tubes in favor of a folding rear seat)
    Wings - aluminum spars, wood ribs (except for tank area, strut attach area, and outboard rib)
    2 - 18 gal wing tanks (from a Piper colt) with small header.
    Engine - O-200A with B&C starter and 8A alternator (mounted on front vacuum pump accessory pad)
    Folding, adjustable front seat
    external baggage door
    LED Landing lights (left wing) and position lights on each wing tip
    balanced tail feathers
    J3/Pa11 style rudder
    elevator trim tab (I've been breifed on the potential shortcomings of this in a previous thread) decisions will be made along the way
    welded on float fittings
    left hand upper door/window mod
    I'm using the Stewart's process to cover it. I already have all the envelopes....so it's getting covered using that method. I would definatley use the blanket method if I didn't already have these to use.
    The stewarts allows me to do the majority of the fabric work in the house (see basement) nice to have it readily available.
    Right now I plan on a combo steam gauge, stratus 2/iPad mini panel
    boot and firewall almost done...I'll share details later.






    I shared a minor setback in an earlier thread about deforming my butt rib when I shrunk the fabric. I added some bracing and fixed it. I will add the aluminum angle on the other wing. I think that is really the way to go. I'll post pictures when I get to that part.


    I will ill post more after I make some progress. Thanks for all of the help so far guys!
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  2. #2
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    I would add an inspection hole where each lift strut attaches.

    Glenn

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    I would add an inspection hole where each lift strut attaches.

    Glenn
    I am adding a rectangular access plate by the front one....I just need to make the frame to glue in. I want to use nut plates or tinnerman nuts to attach the access plate. Anyone know what size this plate usually is? Or is an inspection ring sufficient?
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    Last edited by Dan Gervae; 12-21-2015 at 04:42 PM.

  4. #4

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    I dont remember if 11 wings are like a 18? On a 18 where the aileron cable comes out the top of the wing the cover sits at a little angle, some make the mistake and put the grommet straight front to back, also bending down the area so the turnbuckle dosent hit the wing there, you might know what i mean if not look at some. In the bottom right side of your drawing you will see the angle.

  5. #5
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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  6. #6

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    Nice! Just what I need. Good ol Pierce Aero......And temp Doug...your right. I have a recess in my trailing edge to account for the cable exit to the aileron and I made the mistake on the first cub I recovered of putting the teardrop on straight.. I'll make sure I do it right on this one. Thanks guys!

  7. #7
    jrussl's Avatar
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    Where in the UP are you Dan? I'm heading up to Marquette for the new year and would love to stop by to see your project if you are in the area.

    Jeff

  8. #8

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    I work in Ishpeming. So I'm right by Marquette...the project however, is in Ontonagon. I would still show it to you, but it is about 2 hours from Marquette. It's in my dads basement....after ma died I found a way to get up and spend time with my dad who is now alone up there......I decided to build an airplane in his basement��....he's an old cub pilot and loves planes so that's how this started. If we can't make that work...lets do lunch. I work at the power company right in Ishpeming, so we could get together in Marquette...it's right down the road ..I'll pm you my phone number.

  9. #9
    stknrddr's Avatar
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    Dan,
    I am interested in learning how to attach a Wood Rib to an Aluminum Spar as was done on some bays of your PA-11 project's wings as you mentioned. Maybe they are not really attached, simply captured, I'd like to learn about this? Do you have any photos of a wood rib at the spar prior to covering?
    thank you,
    john
    Thanks Frank Blaesbjerg thanked for this post

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by stknrddr View Post
    Dan,
    I am interested in learning how to attach a Wood Rib to an Aluminum Spar as was done on some bays of your PA-11 project's wings as you mentioned. Maybe they are not really attached, simply captured, I'd like to learn about this? Do you have any photos of a wood rib at the spar prior to covering?
    thank you,
    john
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  11. #11
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    Dan, is that just a small PK screw going into the 1/16" gusset? Thanks for that pic, I have always wondered how that was done.

  12. #12

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    Can anyone tell me the best way to attach wing tip position lights...do you just attach them to the wing after it's painted (leaving mounting holes access of course) or do you glue in some fabric to blend it into the wing?
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub junkie View Post
    Dan, is that just a small PK screw going into the 1/16" gusset? Thanks for that pic, I have always wondered how that was done.
    Yes....same thing on the trailing edge and leading edge....pk screws

  14. #14

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    Another build day. Boy applying tapes is time consuming!
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  15. #15

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    Little spot for the pitot tube to go thru the wing and come out at the front jury strut?

  16. #16

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    the tube is there and I have to poke the hole for it yet. I can reach the tube from the fuel tank bay and shove it through....I will do that when I cut some dollar patches for the jury strut tabs. That's what I love about this site, it is very helpful to have experienced builders/rebuilders on here to keep the rest of us out of trouble....if that pitot tube was not reachable from inside the tank cutout it would be a bugger to get it where it needs to be��

  17. #17

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    Some members have asked for more pictures on how my wood ribs attach to the aluminum spars. Here is a good example.

    Today I was finishing up covering my left wing and even though I was careful not to rib stitch my aileron cable into the wing....I somehow got it jammed between the rear spar and a rib....I had to cut out an inspection ring to fetch it without damaging something.....then, I had an issue with the pulley...so I cut the other one out��

    Ill have to block those off from the inside when I paint....any suggestions?
    i decided to go with the inspection ring instead of the rectangle access panel by the front strut attach fitting because I didn't remember it being a problem on my other cub when I covered it. I think the rectangular panel would have made access a little better, but it is not terrible the way I did it.


    My left wing is now all covered....I don't plan to do any painting until spring....do you think I should do the brush coats of EkoFill ? Or is it fine to leave them like this until I'm ready with the right wing and tail feathers so I can set up and do them all?
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    Last edited by Dan Gervae; 12-27-2015 at 07:13 PM.

  18. #18
    Bearhawk Builder's Avatar
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    Do the brush coats of ekofill, you can then scuff and shoot the rest in the spring. Looking good!

  19. #19
    aktango58's Avatar
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    My mind says the more protection for that fabric the better. Probably easier to clean coffee or any thing else off a painted surface than one not painted. Also, having a surface that will need sanded anyway might be another layer of protection.

    Looks very nice. Great way to spend time with your dad.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  20. #20

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    Working on my panel. Plan to use industrial Velcro to attach iPad. I still have the USB receptacles and a few other little gizmos to install, but this is the layout. Anybody know if my tranceiver will affect my whiskey compass where I have it mounted. I thought about that after I placed it so close.
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    Last edited by Dan Gervae; 10-12-2016 at 09:22 AM.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    Anybody know if my tranceiver will affect my whiskey compass where I have it mounted. I thought about that after I placed it so close.
    Don't know about the others, but I can't make out which is the whiskey compass, and which is the transceiver... Picture is pretty dark on my screen(s). Maybe if you tell us which is which, or lighten up the picture and re-post it?

  22. #22

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    Picture sucks. Sorry, I'll take another in a bit. The compass is top center and the radio is directly below it. Very close.

  23. #23

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    Here is a picture in daylight....maybe I should move the compass to where the fuel gauge is. Thought welcome.
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  24. #24

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    Or take the compass out all together and mount a SIRS to your skylight???

  25. #25

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    Swapping the compass and fuel gauge would put the compass right next to a bunch of tubing on the left side. Might make it really hard to adjust it (swing) for any degree of accuracy. You might be better off swapping the radio with the fuel gauge. But I would still be concerned about the compass being mounted so close to the EFIS screen, which might also interfere with it.

    I think TempDoug has the right idea - mount the compass up towards the skylight / top of the canopy where there is less possibility of interference.

  26. #26

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    Key should be above primer. Mixture and carb heat in front of throttle. The whiskey compass is there for the FAA so it makes little difference where you put it. You'll use the iPad for heading info. That's my opinion, anyway.
    Thanks Frank Blaesbjerg thanked for this post

  27. #27

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    updates long overdue.
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    Made some bolt on ski mounts for the used Trick Air skis I bought, I have a set of Cleveland wheels with 8.00-6 tires so instead of using the small 6.00-6 normally used with trick air...I made these mounts to use the bigger tires. I will be starting fabric on fuselage within the next 2 weeks. Wings are almost done....one is in silver...the other jus finished rib stitching. I should be able to see this through now after sporadic progress
    Last edited by Dan Gervae; 05-20-2018 at 08:54 AM.
    Thanks stknrddr thanked for this post

  28. #28

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    Looks good Dan! I'll try and get those float measurements this week for you. Haven't been out to the float hangar in over a month. I'll be going to OSH on wheels this year and hope to see you there.
    Blue Skies,
    Denny
    If you get lost while flying, don't try hail a cop. Pick up the first railroad you find and hug it until you get somewhere.

  29. #29

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    I’ll be there Denny....question..... has anyone put a Maule tailwheel on a T3 tail suspension? I’m trying to decide if I should buy a matco 8.5 pneumatic tw or get T3 and use the brand New Maule I have sitting here. I could try it I guess. I seem to be spending lotsa money lately....lol... Aircraft Spruce, Airframes AK, and others seem to by my weakness. Wife sees aircraft spruce boxes and says “how many thousands in that Tiny box”? Anyways...speaking of the Matco tw...anyone have a product report on it? It seems like a cheap alternative to the 3200

  30. #30
    gbflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    I’ll be there Denny....question..... has anyone put a Maule tailwheel on a T3 tail suspension? I’m trying to decide if I should buy a matco 8.5 pneumatic tw or get T3 and use the brand New Maule I have sitting here. I could try it I guess. I seem to be spending lotsa money lately....lol... Aircraft Spruce, Airframes AK, and others seem to by my weakness. Wife sees aircraft spruce boxes and says “how many thousands in that Tiny box”? Anyways...speaking of the Matco tw...anyone have a product report on it? It seems like a cheap alternative to the 3200
    We use the 8” Matco on our Rans S7S. Pretty simple and light weight. Durable enough so far. It’s hard to inflate/check air pressure, requires temporary use of a valve stem extension. I think it would be fine for your -11 experimental.

  31. #31

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    I've had the Matco 8" on my Tcraft for a few years. It took some experimenting to get the spring tension right so it would lock. Of course it is heavier than the Heath that I took off, but I think it was worth it.

  32. #32

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    I have elevator trim tab on balanced elevator with Ray Allen Electric Servo....I get 14 degrees up and 14 down....wonder if that’s enough ??? Seems like it would be, just wondering if anyone had done it before

  33. #33
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    I have elevator trim tab on balanced elevator with Ray Allen Electric Servo....I get 14 degrees up and 14 down....wonder if that’s enough ??? Seems like it would be, just wondering if anyone had done it before
    Why no jack screw? The difference between a cub and everything else is a trimable stab

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Why no jack screw? The difference between a cub and everything else is a trimable stab

    Glenn
    ugh, I know Glenn, I’ve been back and forth in my head so many times about this one. So many guys told me they like their trim tab fine....and others wish they had put in jackscrew. I keep thinking...I’ve made up my mind and done all the work to go this route....then I have second thoughts. My Tcraft trim works good....but it’s not tandem....it really wouldn’t take that much welding to put the jackscrew in....(my nice epoxy primed fuselage) lol. I’ll have this coffee and think some more.

  35. #35
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Sorry, you didn't need that monkey wrench thrown in right now. My J4 has a tab on the left elevator and also works fine, but I always wonder if I could get slower with a movable stab? But the J4 lands really slow now. Never happy, always looking to improve.

    Forget that I mentioned the screw

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  36. #36

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    Linear actuator. Easier than a jackscrew. No trim cables to fuss with.

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  37. #37

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    Is that an SQ2 system? I like that!
    Last edited by Dan Gervae; 05-26-2018 at 10:39 AM.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    ugh, I know Glenn, I’ve been back and forth in my head so many times about this one. So many guys told me they like their trim tab fine....and others wish they had put in jackscrew. I keep thinking...I’ve made up my mind and done all the work to go this route....then I have second thoughts. My Tcraft trim works good....but it’s not tandem....it really wouldn’t take that much welding to put the jackscrew in....(my nice epoxy primed fuselage) lol. I’ll have this coffee and think some more.
    A trim tab will work. Any time that the elevator is not streamlined with the stabilizer there is extra drag. A trimming stabilizer eliminates that drag. If you do not care about getting the most available speed out of your plane, go with the trim tab on the elevator.
    N1PA
    Likes Southern Aero liked this post

  39. #39

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    Dan, here's my actuator set up and almost ready for cover. The vertical tubes in the airframe are critical for lateral stability. Fore-aft is determined by the stab. Up-down is all on the actuator. The little unattached eye on the back is a string potentiometer for a digital trim position indicator.

    Hopefully Bill Rusk or others will chime in on how they installed similar actuators in their Javron Cubs. More examples and different ideas are always good.

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    Last edited by stewartb; 05-27-2018 at 09:29 AM.

  40. #40
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Has anyone just mounted a small gearmotor back there to run a belt/cable to just turn the stock pulley on the jackscrew?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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