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J3 Float Performance In and Out Of Small Ponds

39-J3

39-J3

FRIEND
Maine
We are looking at buying a camp on a small pond. The pond is roughly 2,100' long by 1,000 wide with a tree line all the way around it. My question is.. Would a J3 with a C-85 on EDO floats get in and out of it OK? I do not have floats on my cub as of yet but hope to one of these days. I would hate to buy a piece of property that I could not fly in and out of. I have landed on this lake in the winter on Skis with no problem getting in and out, I am just not sure about float operations in the summer.

Thanks
Larry
 
prop it correctly and don't expect to take big loads out and you shouldn't have a problem depending on how tall the tree's are, just get lots of practice on a bigger lake first and be really careful of the glassy water effect on your pond.
 
39-J3 said:
We are looking at buying a camp on a small pond. The pond is roughly 2,100' long by 1,000 wide with a tree line all the way around it. My question is.. Would a J3 with a C-85 on EDO floats get in and out of it OK? I do not have floats on my cub as of yet but hope to one of these days. I would hate to buy a piece of property that I could not fly in and out of. I have landed on this lake in the winter on Skis with no problem getting in and out, I am just not sure about float operations in the summer.

Thanks
Larry
Click to expand...
Sounds pretty tight. Especially with trees all around. Dealing with a glassy water landing would also be asking for trouble. You could verify with Jack Brown's operation in Florida- they'd know the answer, in fact, watch some YouTube of their takeoffs, that'll help you decide. By the way, J3 85 is a nice plane!
 
Larry, do the stroker kit get rid of the clipped wings, put on a flat prop and it should work for you. Like Glenn and others have said hot days and glassy water make it interesting at times.
 
Douten said:
Larry, do the stroker kit get rid of the clipped wings, put on a flat prop and it should work for you. Like Glenn and others have said hot days and glassy water make it interesting at times.
Click to expand...

Getting off the water isn't always the big problem, it's the dead air that a slight CW makes. Problem is you don't know you have a problem till you give it a few seconds to see if you can climb, and if no you need to park it on what ever is left in front of you real quick. Some days your not sure till you get half a mile from the pond. You won't get bored flying floats.

Glenn
 
That sounds like my type of pond. How high above sea level is it? And, is the J-3 really a clip wing or is Douton pulling your chain? Haven't flown one clipped, but don't think that it would be a good idea to float it. Particularly with a small pond in mind. When going from a sea level operation to Moosehead Lake at 1030' asl you will notice that the engine doesn't put out as much power. This means that if that sized pond is marginal for you at sea level don't try it at 1000 feet or higher. A pond 2100' x 1000' is plenty big enough to get on the step going down wind then doing a step turn into the wind thereby reducing the take off run. There are methods, but that isn't the question here. Another question, are there hills nearby where the fair weather wind will be flowing down into the pond? Even small hills. This could create marginal performance where otherwise all would be good. What about rocks under the surface? One known or unknown rock in the wrong place could render the entire pond unsafe. If you know where they are perhaps you can work around them. There are rocks in ponds in Maine. How deep is the pond? Shallow spots?

Can you post here the location of this pond so that we can look it up on google earth? That would help us to answer your question with some authority. No I don't want to buy the property out from under you. If you prefer send me a PM on the location.
 
Can you post here the location of this pond so that we can look it up on google earth? That would help us to answer your question with some authority. No I don't want to buy the property out from under you. If you prefer send me a PM on the location.[/QUOTE]

The pond is Kimball Pond in Vienna Maine.
I do have a clipped wing but either going to build up a set of long wings to put back on or look for another J3.

Larry
 
i think you will want long wings with VG.s, and if your going in and out of a small pond droop the ailerons a bit
 
39-J3 said:
Can you post here the location of this pond so that we can look it up on google earth? That would help us to answer your question with some authority. No I don't want to buy the property out from under you. If you prefer send me a PM on the location.
Click to expand...

The pond is Kimball Pond in Vienna Maine.
I do have a clipped wing but either going to build up a set of long wings to put back on or look for another J3.

Larry[/QUOTE]
Hi Larry; Don't see it as an anytime, all the time, type of place. You would want long wings and an 85 stroker with the right prop. Would have to stay light. Those are the kind of places that you fly to and then decide this isn't the right day. Same can be said for ponds half that size or twice that size; but into that one on a regular basis may be looking for an eventual bad day that isn't worth it. Buy it and enjoy the hell out of it without the plane or look for a place in a more suitable pond. Just my two cents. Reid
 
Kimball Pond elevation 904 feet. Slight power loss, but with proper propeller and 85 hp not bad.
Prevailing south westerly summer fair weather winds. The shape of the pond would discourage step turns for take off since the northern end is narrow. The southern end would be suitable but that is the wrong end for takeoff purposes. Not good
The terrain is generally flat surrounding the pond making downdrafts over hills unlikely. Good
There do not appear, from what I can see, to be any significant rocks near the surface nor does the shoreline indicate that there may be some. Good
The outlet is at the southern end indicating that taking off into the prevailing wind should provide lowering terrain after take off. Good thing.
The higher terrain is to the east of the pond and departure path. Good when considering prevailing wind
This means that you can slide over to the up slope side of the hill after take off for lift during climb.
https://www1.maine.gov/ifw/fishing/lakesurvey_maps/kennebec/kimball_pond.pdf Some shallow spots in the southern end. Not bad

Try to find a good set of 1320s. I like the bottom shape better than the 1400s for performance purposes.
I don't think that you would need VGs. That's me.

In my opinion Kimball is not a small pond. I call small, something in the 1000' x 75' range, particularly when there are trees surrounding it.

My opinion from where I sit is: Go for it.
 
skywagon8a said:
In my opinion Kimball is not a small pond. I call small, something in the 1000' x 75' range, particularly when there are trees surrounding it.

My opinion from where I sit is: Go for it.
Click to expand...

But remember Larry, Pete has a lot more float experience then you, a better power to weight ratio then you, and has flaps. I say get your J3 set up at the dock and get Pete to do the maiden takeoff in it. ;-)

Glenn
 
Larry,
I have the upper lodge in the middle of China Lake I can rent you cheap with a place for the J3 and plenty of lake to take off. I have a cove that we can add a second pallet to so you can tie down the J3. Kimball Pond appears to be a risk you may not want to take.
John

~https://www.bing.com/mapspreview?&ty=17&q=Kimball%20Pond%2c%20Maine&vdpid=-7999652613&mb=44.578671~-69.989731~44.575779~-69.986557&ppois=44.5772743225098_-69.9879302978516_Kimball%20Pond%2c%20Maine_~&cp=44.577274~-69.98793&v=2&sV=1&qpvt=Kimball+Pond+Vienna+Maine&FORM=MIRE
 
cubdriver2 said:
But remember Larry, Pete has a lot more float experience then you, a better power to weight ratio then you, and has flaps. I say get your J3 set up at the dock and get Pete to do the maiden takeoff in it. ;-)

Glenn
Click to expand...
I have head lots of stories about pete as well, all good. Heard he lands anywhere.lol. The guys
Telling the stories are great stol pilots and are amazed where he takes his plane.
 
Last edited:
Thank you all for the compliments. Glenn, I would accept that challenge. I was not thinking of my Super Super Cub when I was talking about a 1000' x 75' pond, that could handle a 600' pond. The 1000' x 75' one with a raised railroad track no more than 100' beyond the departure end has seen a 150 hp 172 on 2000, a Stinson SR on 4000, an Acy Ducy on 1650, a 206 on PK 3500 and many more. The 206 was very tight and will not be repeated. This is a sea level pond.

Look at the pond at the south end of the runway at Cranland Airport. That is it. It is called Chandler Millpond.
https://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=4..._-70.838111_Cranland Airport___&ignoreoptin=1
 
After looking at it on google earth it looks doable. If a south wind you should be ok. If a west wind you have room to turn west 3/4 of the way down the lake. A J3 climbs a little better then I do. I get off the water quicker but don't climb as fast.

Glenn
 
Sounds like it would be marginal at best. I have flown floats at Jack Browns last year and now I am hooked. If I recall the lake that Jack Browns is on was right around 2,500' and we had no problem getting out. But that was with a stroker motor.

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Larry
 

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Glenn, That is good, it appears to be about 1300 feet long at 2000 msl. How much power in your J-4? Larry shouldn't have too much trouble in Kimball Pond. Don't know about his experience level, but certainly he can be trained if needed.
 
skywagon8a said:
Glenn, That is good, it appears to be about 1300 feet long at 2000 msl. How much power in your J-4? Larry shouldn't have too much trouble in Kimball Pond. Don't know about his experience level, but certainly he can be trained if needed.
Click to expand...

C85 stroker 8.6 pistons 7440 Mac. At 90'msl at Island Bobs it's off in under 300'. At my pond 1340'msl 600' All J4s are nose heavy when light, great for getting on step and off the water, not so good for climb. J3 climbs better with pilot in back seat

Glenn

Glenn
 
That's good information for Larry. At 1250 feet in altitude change he can expect roughly double the take off run.
 
Larry, My camp is ten minutes flight time from home but last summer drove most of the time as plane is a lot safer in the hanger than parked outside when weather is calling for possible hail and sever thunder storms. Floats are fun,nice etc. but amphibs are great and easier to make a judge met call if plane is under cover. Hated to go check on the plane after heavy storms but was lucky nothing ever happened. Good luck on your decision.
 
I see from everyone's responses that you might be able to pull it off, my experience in a super cub really isn't relevant. My question is not about wether you can do it once, but if you do it repeatedly what happens when you want to abort? How about an engine sputter? Or perhaps some extra water hiding in a compartment? Just sounds like there are no outs, in flying I've learned outs are everything.
 
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