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Thread: Winter Oil, Aviation oil/auto oil

  1. #81
    algonquin's Avatar
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    My thought is if you do it don't carry anyone else in your plane as they look to the pilot to keep them safe. Don't fly over any property you don't own. Don't fly over any people. Have fun.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senior View Post
    Since I run strictly 91 auto fuel in my 85hp, I should not have to worry about lead.

    Zenairdave: what oil specifically are you running? I really find it hard to justify $120+ for 12 pk av oil up here. I'm real tempted to try diesel oil like Rotela thinking it may lend itself better to flat tappet type engines as opposed to roller rockers & modern auto oil.
    Thought?
    As a precursor, Remember----your results may vary.

    The purpose of my experiment was not about saving money over the price of oil, it was about causing less harm to a cold engine with thick oil that will not circulate at cold temperatures. When it does start to circulate, it is likely bypassing the screen/oil filter until warmed up significantly. These are not desirable issues.
    Other things I considered that were likely happening with cold thick oil.
    Hyd. lifters not able to fill/adjust, oil not able to pass bearings making hot spots, oil not returning to pan, rings unable to scrap the cylinder properly nor get the gel out of the rings.
    Potential risks with car oil include, not being able to handle lead, detergents that clean 50 years of sludge from internals and plug the screen, some secret ingredient that eats 75 yr old metal or seals. Maybe its not as slippery as Aviation oils??
    When aero shell comes out with 5W30, I will gladly buy it at whatever price. Until then, the Castrol GTX synthetic blend for high mileage engines is what seems to be working. I was warned by someone to make sure it is rated with SL from API.
    I never checked what that was because on the back it has stamped, meets SN,SM,SL,SJ. Whatever that rating is, it has it.
    In the end, it's your engine, your money, your choice. Do what you want at your own risk.

  3. #83
    zenairdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by algonquin View Post
    My thought is if you do it don't carry anyone else in your plane as they look to the pilot to keep them safe. Don't fly over any property you don't own. Don't fly over any people. Have fun.
    Clearly you would never fly an experimental aircraft anywhere, auto conversions would be out of the question. You must put new tires on your vehicles every year because rubber deteriorates and could cause a blow out. Do you have assistance when you climb a set of stairs or get in the bath tub?

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenairdave View Post
    ... Do you have assistance when you climb a set of stairs or get in the bath tub?
    Is this the beginning of one of those Cialis commercials?

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  5. #85
    algonquin's Avatar
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    I did say have fun! I've done enough test flying and stated my basic rules when doing it. Been flying since 66' and good lord willing I'll be around a bit longer, sorry to offend you.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by algonquin View Post
    I did say have fun! I've done enough test flying and stated my basic rules when doing it. Been flying since 66' and good lord willing I'll be around a bit longer, sorry to offend you.
    Not so much offended as frusturated. The certified aviation world is stuck in 1960 because the authorities are convinced that if you do something that was not tested 50 years ago, the plane is going to crash and kill everyone nearby.
    While that might happen, with a bit of caution, it likely won't.
    Also I have been around long enough to know if someone wants to sue you, there is a lawyer somewhere that can find something you did which caused his clients grief. That is a fact but I prefer not to live my life being scared of that lawyer hiding in the bushes.
    Last edited by zenairdave; 02-10-2016 at 10:13 AM.

  7. #87
    algonquin's Avatar
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    I think you would find most of us old guys agree with you on everything you said, but have lost lots for friends over the years. That said how about making a test stand and mic everything and take pic's to compare and run the engine several hours and really see what happens to all the components, both in size and color changes ( heat problems ). It would be hard to tell if it were flown, too many variables.
    A side note on cert. Parts- Cessna door handle 275.00 1963 ford falcon 21.00. The diference is the Cessna part # ends with a -C. They didn't even go to the trouble to change the #.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenairdave View Post
    Not so much offended as frusturated. The certified aviation world is stuck in 1960 because the authorities are convinced that if you do something that was not tested 50 years ago, the plane is going to crash and kill everyone nearby.
    While that might happen, with a bit of caution, it likely won't.
    Also I have been around long enough to know if someone wants to sue you, there is a lawyer somewhere that can find something you did which caused his clients grief. That is a fact but I prefer not to live my life being scared of that lawyer hiding in the bushes.
    What he's getting at is; experiment away. More power to you and, as a matter of fact, most of us ARE interested in any results you may come up with. But, in the process of experimenting, make sure not to hurt anyone. You may think something is perfectly safe, but until you put flight time and measurements to it, you'll never know for sure. We don't need to lose family or friends (or even enemies) and when someone crashes while doing something 'unusual', it makes all of us look bad to the non flying public.

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  9. #89

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    I have a couple of questions for someone who knows the science. Most of us are familiar with ashless dispersent oil. As I understand it that's the aviation alternative to detergent oil, the difference being that technically speaking detergents are metallic compounds and they leave ash residue. Is that residue because of our use of leaded fuel or is it that our airplane engines being 4-cycle air cooled are unusual in that we routinely operate in the 400* CHT range (well above what our liquid cooled engines run)? I recall stories about detergent oils causing valve problems but never understood the science of why. I have talked to a couple of famous aviation oil guys about things like STP and they still reject additives that use metallic components. Does anyone here know the real answer?

  10. #90
    algonquin's Avatar
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    I was racing cars in the 60' and 70's and the factory guys told me if they found traces of STP on the parts they were dropped from the factory program. It was explained to me that the molecules were long and thin and would brake down and not lub under high presure and heat.

  11. #91

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    And yet Lycoming recommends a mixture of STP and mineral oil for engine assembly. Which was part of why I talked to those experts about STP and similar additives.

    The science question remains.....

  12. #92
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    I believe that the sticky thick STP and mineral concoction is to ensure that the parts all have lubrication in place for the initial startup. After it is run the regular oil will be dispersed throughout the engine. The STP will be diluted and removed at the first oil change.
    N1PA

  13. #93
    algonquin's Avatar
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    Also a big difeence in presure between a a/c engine and a 500 hp race engine doing 8000+ rpms

  14. #94
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    STP these days contains a lot less ZDDP due to catalytic converter contamination , and 'motor honey' contains none. Oil should contain a mixture of viscosities to perform it's function.

    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...&Number=258648

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I believe that the sticky thick STP and mineral concoction is to ensure that the parts all have lubrication in place for the initial startup. After it is run the regular oil will be dispersed throughout the engine. The STP will be diluted and removed at the first oil change.
    This is exactly what I was taught when building car or aircraft engines. The pre lube is only there for the first minute, strictly to protect moving parts until the oil has began to circulate. Just an observation, but I don't believe that some of these additives should be in car or aircraft oil in normal ops.

    Any one here know an engineer from Philips or Shell?

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  16. #96
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    The zinc content of ZDDP is an anti-wear component that is thought to be possibly problematic in aircraft engines, but I had a friend who ran several O-470's to overhaul with minimal wear using (pre-cat converter) STP in the oil regularly. I recall that he only used half a can per oil change. I think you would need only half of that as ZDDP-free 'motor honey' to coat the cam....

    My dad was an engineer for Mobil, does that count a little?

  17. #97
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    What was the 'problematic' part? Did it have to do with heat or pressures. Fuels or other materials?

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  18. #98

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    I know guys who use STP in their summer aircraft oil and I've been told a respected engine builder in Wasilla advises it. I asked Ed Kollin about it and he told me it was a bad idea. I already was a Camguard user so he didn't need to sell me on that. I had been curious so I asked the best expert I had access to. Ed used to chime in here a little. Maybe he will again. I do remember asking what oil he used in his own plane. Phillips X/C with Camguard.

  19. #99
    fobjob's Avatar
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    When we were having a discussion here about Camguard and other things, Ed "speculated" that ZDDP would bond to various metals in the engine and that probably wouldn't be a good thing.....

    By the way, 'motor honey' is the same stuff in your multi-vis oils that thickens up when it gets hot....that makes it multi-viscosity.... The low number is the regular oil viscosity, and the high number is the viscosity it simulates when hot.
    Last edited by fobjob; 02-11-2016 at 06:11 PM.

  20. #100
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    If I was to guess, I would guess that the ideal aviation oil would be: 5 qts of Phillips XC with 1/2 pt of Camguard, 1 pt of kerosene or Stoddard solvent, and 1/4 pt of motor honey. I would say 90 weight gear lube, but that has sulfur in it, which could be a mistake.
    The kerosene to scavenge carbon deposits, and the motor honey to coat the cam. Thoughts?

  21. #101
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    Lol, and you guys called my 5w30 oil a "risky" experiment. Let me know how that turns out.
    BTW, my local ame likes Rislone.

  22. #102
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    Well, I didn't....BUT, the average viscosity probably needs to be a bit higher....bear in mind, that with wear, the max viscosity tends to lower as molecules get sheared, and approach the lower number...and due to the large clearances in air cooled engines, the minimum viscosity needs to higher than auto engines. According to my dad, any given weight oil needs to have a mixture of shorter and longer molecules mixed in it to penetrate smaller spaces and cling to surfaces for startup lube.
    They kinda helped that with multi-vis , but not completely, IMHO...

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by fobjob View Post
    If I was to guess, I would guess that the ideal aviation oil would be: 5 qts of Phillips XC with 1/2 pt of Camguard, 1 pt of kerosene or Stoddard solvent, and 1/4 pt of motor honey. I would say 90 weight gear lube, but that has sulfur in it, which could be a mistake.
    The kerosene to scavenge carbon deposits, and the motor honey to coat the cam. Thoughts?
    Hey guys, don't be playing witch doctor with your engine oil. The oils that we use in our airplane engines are formulated and tested to run safely by engineers and chemists that have the required knowledge. Our airplane engines run at much different speeds and have different tolerances and cooling methods than automotive style engines. This makes the lubricating requirements much different. Mixing oils on your own is asking for trouble, even between different brands. Additive packages between brands and especially oil additives may not be compatible with each other. This can create issues with contaminants precipitating out, sludge buildup, degradation of lubricating properties and a whole host of other bad stuff to occur in your engine. Cam Guard is a good thing to run with your oil. It has been tested and is compatible with the aviation oils we use. I don't think I have ever heard of anyone having an engine problem that was caused from using the correct oil changed at the correct intervals. Most engine issues are caused from improper engine usage/management, lack of use, or abuse. Engine problems are not caused by using the correct oil.

  24. #104
    fobjob's Avatar
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    "Engine problems are not caused by using the correct oil."

    Speaking of "correct" oil, I had two cylinders lock up their rings and burn 6 qts in 20 minutes, most likely from shell 15-50 and lotsa tetraethel lead.... left a nice smoke trail, along with a nice stain down the right side of the fuse....

  25. #105
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    I suspect that those two cylinders had some other issue other than the oil. I have been using Shell 15W-50 for more than 40 years without any ring or other problems which could be traced to oil.
    N1PA

  26. #106

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    Forget all these comparisons with water cooled auto engines, I think I'll just ask what was used in thousands of 1950-60s & 70s air cooled Harley engines, seems they run forever with little or no cooling while negotiating in the city, ample bearing clearances & about the same operating rpm

  27. #107
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    A steady diet of avgas and 15-50 was the only common factor we had after eliminating all others...if it was only one cylinder....but two? You are aware of the history of complaints about oil consumption and 15-50?

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senior View Post
    Forget all these comparisons with water cooled auto engines, I think I'll just ask what was used in thousands of 1950-60s & 70s air cooled Harley engines, seems they run forever with little or no cooling while negotiating in the city, ample bearing clearances & about the same operating rpm
    Do they have pressure oil systems or are they splash systems?
    N1PA

  29. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Senior View Post
    Forget all these comparisons with water cooled auto engines, I think I'll just ask what was used in thousands of 1950-60s & 70s air cooled Harley engines, seems they run forever with little or no cooling while negotiating in the city, ample bearing clearances & about the same operating rpm
    As I remember, H-D marketed their own oil. I don't remember anyone using anything else except one buddy who had a worn out 61 cube springer. He only got about 50 miles to a quart until he started using 90 weight gear lube. That really cut back his oil consumption but boy did the exhaust stink. Every ride turned into a race to keep him at the back of the pack. jrh
    You can't get there from here. You have to go over yonder and start from there.

  30. #110
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    Gear lube has a lot of sulfur in it....my bud has a Sportster, and uses a synthetic, but still has CHT issues in the rear cylinder, and won't run it above 95F OAT....

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