Winter Oil, Aviation oil/auto oil

[zenairdave]

Surely this has been discussed but I cannot find it. One of the worst things I think you can do below freezing is start your engine when the oil is like mud and will not flow. Since I do not preheat, I would like thinner than SAE 40 or 50 and from what I see, thinner is discontinued. Even mulitgrade 15-40 seems too heavy for me. So, just what is it that makes plain old automotive 5W30 engine oil for a high mileage car, a bad idea? I am using Continental O-200 that hardly has anything in it that I see needs special oil?

Speak up before I pour it in.

[cubdriver2]

The thing that sold me on aviation oil was when I had to use it in my 8hp generator. Power was off for 5 days and I was changing oil every morning because the engine was running WOT for 24 hrs. I change it in the 0200 every 25hrs so why not the little screaming generator? First 3 days I was using 15/30 Havalin and when I drained the 7/8th oz out it ran like water. On the 4th morning I couldn't find any car oil so I dumped in some 15-50 aeroshell. Next morning I drained it out and it comes out like oil, not thin and runny like the car oil. I now use it in everything thats air cooled, even ran it in my Shovelhead.

Glenn

[Richgj3]

I'm not sure about this but I think that aviation oil is designed for higher oil temps found in air cooled motors. Having said that, I used to get 50 degree F higher oil temps in my Corvette than I get in my O-200. There is also that "ashless dispersant" thing. That's something else I don't know.

Rich

[zenairdave]

Good point, Air cooled engines run hotter(normally) than liquid but in this application, I stuggle to get oil warm enough to move the gauge which means it is about 100 F degrees when operating. I was more concerned with some strange additive that would attack old school bearing inserts????
Using mogas there is not much need for ashless dispersant.
I actually have Kohler engine oil on the shelf in several grades. That is for air-cooled engines and if they can make engine primers for the Cub---- why not engine oil??? LOL

[cubdriver2]

Why not just preheat?

Glenn

[zenairdave]

Why not just preheat?

Glenn

LOL. Not set up for it, and mostly don't have the time. pleasure flying and a job means when I get to the plane, I want to start it and get going. Piper recommended 20 weight oil in the cold from what I can find. If I could buy aviation SAE 20 (W40) I would buy it. Tell me where.

[Skycop]

Well a heat pad on the oil sump is better than nothing. I've been leaving my planes plugged in 24/7 with a cowl cover over them in the hangar. In the middle of the MN winters the oil temp will be around 100 degrees. And the radiant heat will keep the cylinder around 60. Plug it in after shut down and the engine never even really cools off.

[Tim]

I know of an engine builder ( aircraft ) that uses Shell Rotella in his engines and has for years

[NunavutPA-12]

Since I do not preheat, I would like thinner than SAE 40 or 50 ........

You don't pre-heat in Ontario? Either you're in Windsor or you don't fly in the winter - or both.

The time you save by not pre-heating will be lost when you have to wait for months while your engine gets re-built!

[stewartb]

Aviation oils typically use ashless dispersants. Car oil uses detergents.

[larrym]

No car oil - it would not even keep the oil pressure up in my Beetle. Even 1 qt of aviation oil and had no problems.

Have you consider fuel dilution ? I used to fly a 182 that had the sytem intalled. It was quick and easy, as you pulled the control for so many seconds allowing fuel to mix with the oil while the engine was running. Can't recall all the details, but for the next flight, the oil would be thinner. After start and with a hot engine, the fuel would burn out.

Perhaps someone can provide details......

larry

[Olibuilt]

I was looking to put new car oil in my airplanes. But I don't feel safe for the engine.

I now put the 25-40 hrs airplane oil in every motor I have. From my old 12v Cummins to my 2002 Civic, lawn mowers, generators or chainsaws chain lube.

[mvivion]

LOL. Not set up for it, and mostly don't have the time. pleasure flying and a job means when I get to the plane, I want to start it and get going. Piper recommended 20 weight oil in the cold from what I can find. If I could buy aviation SAE 20 (W40) I would buy it. Tell me where.

Sorry, but LOL my arse. If you don't have time to pre-heat your engine prior to flight when temperatures are below about 30 degrees F, then you don't have time to fly the aircraft in winter. Pickle the thing and come back to flying when you "have time".

Or, figure out how to properly pre heat that engine.

If you persist in the notion that you don't have time to properly pre heat that engine, don't you dare take ANY passengers flying with you.

MTV

[DENNY]

Oil is not the only issue for a cold engine moving parts are not happy at - 30 that is where the problem lies. It would be very easy to bring warm oil for flight and drain after flight, only 5 min time. Simple old school stuff but they still put cover to ground over engine and heated it. Lots of ways to skin this cat but I would try to stick with aviation oil. I fixed the issue by buying my wife a hanger!!
DENNY

[eskflyer]

You don't have time to preheat?. I'm with MV. Do you even have time to preflight. STOP take a reality check either sell it to someone who will treat it with the respect it deserves or use it for a lawn ornament. You must be a believer in the Darwin theory , you can fix stupid , yep takem out of the DNA chain and ya just fixed it.

[Ruffair]

I know of an engine builder ( aircraft ) that uses Shell Rotella in his engines and has for years

Saw this synthetic 0-40 wt oil in the New Holland tractor store today.

Recommended for use when you can't plug O'l Big Blue in for the night.
But I didn't tell ya to use it...!!!

[stewartb]

Continental recommends pre heat below 20*F, Lycoming says 10*F. FWIW.

[stewartb]

Saw this synthetic 0-40 wt oil in the New Holland tractor store today.

Recommended for use when you can't plug O'l Big Blue in for the night.
But I didn't tell ya to use it...!!!

I use 0-30 Amzoil in all my gasoline equipment year-round but there's no way in hell I'd consider using it in my airplane. I use Delo 400 in 10-30 for the diesel engines. I burn #1 fuel in them all year because that's all I haul. No problems.

[Pacerfgoe]

I wouldn't use Automotive oil in my plane, because the aditive package for flat tappet cams has been removed due to emissions. As a result of this, most manufactures have gone to roller cam setups.
Thats reason enough for me...

[skywagon8a]

I have heard of an engine failure with a Continental engine which had a kidney tank like yours. The engine was NOT preheated in the winter. It was started, oil pressure came up, and the oil temperature rose. The plane went flying. After a while the oil pressure went to zero followed by a forced landing with damage. What happened? It is presumed that the oil was drawn up the pickup tube run through and warmed in the engine, draining back into the sump along side the pickup tube. Drawn back into the pickup etc. This gave the pilot the assumption that the oil was warm. When in reality it was just the oil next to the pickup tube recirculating. The remainder of the oil was still thick and cold. Eventually the remaining oil warmed enough for a large glob of thick oil to move to and cover the pickup holes. Presto, no oil flow. No oil pressure. Dead engine. Bad day. I know that a lot of Ontario is a long distance from nowhere. If you don't have the time to heat your engine, do you have the time to walk (hopefully) home?

[algonquin]

You need to give God a little room to weed out the stupid, my guess is your going to do what you want because your way smarter than everybody here. Just be fair to any passengers and tell them your operating in opposition to all standard practices and procedures, give them a fair chance walk away alive.

[spinner2]

I ruined a chainsaw cylinder and piston once using outboard 2-cycle oil rather than chainsaw oil. The outboard oil is designed to run at cooler temperatures because the engines are water cooled.

Since then I'm more aware of the oils I use. Although I have used aircraft engine oil in other air cooled engines. All oils have a temperature range they're designed for. Using them outside of that range is likely to cause problems.

[zenairdave]

Shots fired. LOL
First off, When I say cold weather that I may fly in, I mean 20 to 30 degrees F. When it is colder than that, I am in the house, at work or Snowmobiling.
Canada is a big place but unless you live South of Detroit or Buffalo, I am South of you.
In my opinion, most hobby flyers do a poor job of preheating enough to warm the oil(which takes hours if you ask me) and yes, that can cause problems if you insist on using 50W oil because you are thinking it is OK because you preheat. I am not going to keep my engine warm 24/7 just to fly once a month to keep things lubricated. (Waste of hydro and a fire hazard IMO)
I have a farm dealer and powersports back ground. Wrong oil can ruin your day. But, old farm tractors used to require non detergent ash free oil or they sludged up with lead. Those oils used to be supplied by the OEM's (IH, Ford, Case etc) but has since disappeared along with the lead in the fuel. Those same tractors (although being used less) seem to be running just fine on the current offering of oils and straight 10W has been replaced with 0W40 in a lot of cases.(synthetic or not) Most engines do not have roller rockers but I am aware some oils do a better job of keeping camshaft lobes in tact.
As for warming up the engine, my drill goes like this. One shot of prime, 4 blades, hot mag and one flip and it runs, likely a bit of prime to keep it running the first 10 seconds, I let it run 2 minutes (800 rpm) and watch the oil pressure. I shut it down with mags and feel the cylinders and tappet covers. (they will be cold) I do a preflight, fuel, close the hanger and finish with feeling the same cylinders and tappet covers. They will now be warm as the heat has migrated throughout the engine. (oil will still be cold, which is why I want thinner oil) Restart with electric starter after one more shot of prime. Another 5 minutes of running. At that point, I am likely going flying.
As for Detergent oils, the continental engine overhaul manual clearly states that it is fine but advises if it is a well used sludged up previously run on mineral oils, you better be really careful switching over to detergent ( frequent screen cleaning ). On a freshly rebuilt or very internally clean engine, detergent oil is fine.
Did I miss anything? I am not recommending anyone should do the same. It's your engine, your life. Treat both how you may.

[zenairdave]

I have heard of an engine failure with a Continental engine which had a kidney tank like yours. The engine was NOT preheated in the winter. It was started, oil pressure came up, and the oil temperature rose. The plane went flying. After a while the oil pressure went to zero followed by a forced landing with damage. What happened? It is presumed that the oil was drawn up the pickup tube run through and warmed in the engine, draining back into the sump along side the pickup tube. Drawn back into the pickup etc. This gave the pilot the assumption that the oil was warm. When in reality it was just the oil next to the pickup tube recirculating. The remainder of the oil was still thick and cold. Eventually the remaining oil warmed enough for a large glob of thick oil to move to and cover the pickup holes. Presto, no oil flow. No oil pressure. Dead engine. Bad day. I know that a lot of Ontario is a long distance from nowhere. If you don't have the time to heat your engine, do you have the time to walk (hopefully) home?

This is exactly what I am trying to avoid. I cannot keep the oil warm enough in flight to suit me. It wont matter how warm I get it before flying if it cools back off underway. (Yes, I have the kidney cover and blocked off hole on the front of the cowl, even tried using cabin heat supply to warm air the kidney. (J3 style cowl)
Also I came from the two stroke aviation world and although I would prefer not to do it, there is no reason an engine out should kill you. Lots of farm land, don't fly over things that I cant land on and 4 forced landings after %#^&!# Rotax two strokes packed it in without warning, I managed to neither wreck myself or the plane. (no lakes, mountains or national parks). Yes, I always wear good walking shoes when I go flying.

[fobjob]

I don't think that there is any good way to bypass a proper preheat, BUT...the German and Russian tank units (in WW2) used to dilute their diesel fuel with gasoline so that it would flow in the winter, and I'm guessing they did the same with their oil. Maybe a quart of good ol' MMO wouldn't hurt, being half 30w oil and half stoddard solvent...in a pinch...
I have an electric preheater, turned on by a 7 day timer, since my flying is fairly predictable. I also have a cell phone alarm system which allows me to turn on an "appliance", at 10 amps, anyway, by remote control from my cell phone. 55 bucks and 10 bucks a month for the GSM phone service.

[zenairdave]

Continental recommends pre heat below 20*F, Lycoming says 10*F. FWIW.

I don't fly when it is that cold. Are you nuts? LOL

[cubdriver2]

I never see 100F over ambient temps in the winter, that means some days it's 100F after preheat but it never gets back to 100F the rest of the day. Last C90 had 2200hrs on it, did rings and valve guides at 1100hrs and was still running strong at 2200hrs when I wreaked the plane with a tree. Don't worry about oil temp in small C engines.

Glenn

[zenairdave]

No car oil - it would not even keep the oil pressure up in my Beetle. Even 1 qt of aviation oil and had no problems.

Have you consider fuel dilution ? I used to fly a 182 that had the sytem intalled. It was quick and easy, as you pulled the control for so many seconds allowing fuel to mix with the oil while the engine was running. Can't recall all the details, but for the next flight, the oil would be thinner. After start and with a hot engine, the fuel would burn out.

Perhaps someone can provide details......larry

This is something I would totally not be comfortable with. Any engine I have seen that ran a while with oil which was diluted with gas, needed a crankshaft and nearly everything else replaced within 50 hours. No fuel in my oil thanks

[zenairdave]

I was looking to put new car oil in my airplanes. But I don't feel safe for the engine.

I now put the 25-40 hrs airplane oil in every motor I have. From my old 12v Cummins to my 2002 Civic, lawn mowers, generators or chainsaws chain lube.

This one confuses me? You are saying used aviation oil in your car is better than new automotive oil in your plane?
I do not believe that aviation oil is a "magic" oil that should be used in everything. Your mileage may vary. LOL Well, according to Dodge and VW anyways.

[zenairdave]

I don't think that there is any good way to bypass a proper preheat, BUT...the German and Russian tank units (in WW2) used to dilute their diesel fuel with gasoline so that it would flow in the winter, and I'm guessing they did the same with their oil. Maybe a quart of good ol' MMO wouldn't hurt, being half 30w oil and half stoddard solvent...in a pinch...
I have an electric preheater, turned on by a 7 day timer, since my flying is fairly predictable. I also have a cell phone alarm system which allows me to turn on an "appliance", at 10 amps, anyway, by remote control from my cell phone. 55 bucks and 10 bucks a month for the GSM phone service.

You Sir , have a dream set up. Not to get religion in the thread, PLEASE don't tell me you also have 3 wives. I couldn't take it.

[fobjob]

Never got married, never had kids....never thought it was a good idea....also, always been sober..which probably explains it...

[zenairdave]

I never see 100F over ambient temps in the winter, that means some days it's 100F after preheat but it never gets back to 100F the rest of the day. Last C90 had 2200hrs on it, did rings and valve guides at 1100hrs and was still running strong at 2200hrs when I wreaked the plane with a tree. Don't worry about oil temp in small C engines.

Glenn

I think I follow this train of thought?
Clean oil is better than dirty oil.
Some oil is better than no oil.
No trees is better than one tree?
Sorry, I couldn't resist. Sadly , too many engines get finished with a prop strike or internal corrosion way before they get worn out from too much use.

[txpacer]

Never got married, never had kids....never thought it was a good idea....also, always been sober..which probably explains it...

My first wife drove me to drink. I never thanked her for that.

[DENNY]

Ok the story gets more clear. 30 degrees is not really cold! Run multi weight aviation oil, Phillips 20-50 with camguard and go fly.
DENNY

[Mark_Moyle]

Years ago when I worked for Diamond Reo...the boss, Bryce Morris...born in the late 1800's. Literally built a 1934 maybe a 1937 Indy car from scratch. Sand casted pistons...parts...machine/milled crank, rods... Frigg'n walking engineering dictionary. Would talk about the differences in automotive oils and oils with more lubrictaion. Automotive oils having upwards of 75% detergents and additives. Real oil in his opinion was straight mineral oil.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[fobjob]

Met Charlie Kulp in Virginia once, and he told me he always used mineral oil in his cub, and never saw a reason to change....and he put one heckovalotta hours on it....

[zenairdave]

Never got married, never had kids....never thought it was a good idea....also, always been sober..which probably explains it...

When 12, my first visit to Salt Lake City, we went to look at the Mormon Church. I will forever associate Salt Lake City with guys that have multiple wives. LOL Sorry you missed out. At least you got a plane and a hangar to store it. Close second.

[fobjob]

It's officially forbidden, but they do live around here....had neighbors from time to time who engaged in the practice. Mostly driven by practicality, not religious fervor...when I worked for KSL-TV, they all wanted me to convert, so I converted to another company...not a joiner of any kind...supercub.org being the only exception...
Not many church members own planes, but some do, because Sundays are a nice quiet day to fly around here...

[Fat Kid]

Use the aviation Multi-grade oil. An example would be Aeroshell 15W50 flows like a 15w oil when the engine is cold and protects like a 50w when the engine is up to operating temp. The Automotive oils do not handle the lead scavenging that the aircraft oils are designed to do.

[Joseph206]