Am I correct that even a Super Cub blown over the spinner/nose bowl, that barely bent the 8241 prop (I assume just from moving from 8 and 2 oclock where it was to 9 and 3)has to have AD2004-10-14 complied with? Aircraft was tied down and the tail tie down broke, flipped the Cub over with both wing tie downs still tight. Engine was NOT running!
Also, do you have to comply with SB 533B or just 475C mentioned in the compliance section of said AD?
Thank you.
Brett
you're f*^%ed, although I don't agree, the AD states...
Definition of Propeller Strike (i) For the purposes of this AD, a propeller strike is defined as follows:
(1) Any incident, whether or not the engine is operating, that requires repair to the propeller otherthan minor dressing of the blades.
(2) Any incident during engine operation in which the propeller impacts a solid object thatcauses a drop in revolutions per minute (RPM) and also requires structural repair of the propeller(incidents requiring only paint touch-up are not included). This is not restricted to propeller strikesagainst the ground.
(3) A sudden RPM drop while impacting water, tall grass, or similar yielding medium, wherepropeller damage is not normally incurred.
(j) The preceding definitions include situations where an aircraft is stationary and the landinggear collapses causing one or more blades to be substantially bent, or where a hanger door (or otherobject) strikes the propeller blade. These cases should be handled as sudden stoppages because ofpotentially severe side loading on the crankshaft flange, front bearing, and seal.
Originally Posted by mike mcs repair
Mike,
So do you just comply with the AD that states to comply with SB 475C (which appears WAY cheaper) than SB 533B which has 7 pages of items to inspect
I don't see any reference to SB 533B. http://www.caa.si/fileadmin/user_upl...2004-10-14.pdf
NX1PA
Pull the oil sump, accesory case and crank bolt with lock tab. Inspect dowel pin and assemble with new lock tab and bolt. I agree it is overkill. I don't remember the SB numbers but have done a lot of these.
Thank you all!
Brett
Service Bulletin 475C is the one you have to follow as called out in the Airworthiness Directive.
Do I need to comply with AD 2004-10-14 prior to issuance of a Special Flight Permit? I had a nose over on landing and need to get the aircraft back to home base.
You need a licensed mechanic to inspect it and sign off that it’s safe to make the requested ferry flight.
In Alaska it’s pretty simple. Make the on-line application and a FSDO guy calls me, then emails me the permit. https://www.faa.gov/media/29886
Last edited by stewartb; 08-29-2023 at 10:37 AM.
Our FSDO is saying AD 2004-10-14 must be complied with prior to flight, and that includes a ferry flight.
The hole purpose of a Special Flight Permit is to move an unairworthy aircraft that is reasonable fit for flight.
Does ANC FSDO have another interpretation of the AD applicability to a ferry flight?
I'm pulling my hair out over this as my airplane sits unsecured on a gravel bar......
Mikey
Here is one FSDO's published position -
3.) If an AD requires compliance before further flight and does not have a provision for issuance of a Special FlightPermits, the operation of the aircraft to which it applies would not be appropriate, and a Special Flight Permit will not be issued.
ref - https://www.faa.gov/media/29886
14 CFR 21.197 does not appear to require AD compliance.
I wonder how many aircraft have miraculously found their way back home for repair under "don't ask, don't tell" waivers. Now you have asked I expect the local FSDO will be taking a keen interest.
Sorry to hear of your mishap though and hope I don't find myself in the same bind one day.
Is the plane insured?
That AD doesn’t provide a mechanic any wiggle room. Swing the engine and open the accessory case? It could be worse.
Last edited by stewartb; 08-29-2023 at 11:49 AM.
Ferry flights that I was involved with, mechanics verified no ADs prior to calling for ferry permit, because they knew the FAA would ask. If your plane goes past due for an annual, and you need to ferry to maintenance, to get a ferry permit, you have to verify no ADs due.
IF this was a prop strike, that AD applies.
But I’ve been wrong before.
MTV
True. Here’s line 5 from my most recent ferry permit.
5. An appropriatelyCertificated Mechanicor RepairStation shall inspect the aircraft. An entry shall be made in the aircraft maintenance record. or on this permit that certifies the aircraft is"Safefortheintendedflight and "Noairworthinessdirectives(AD) apply except in accordance with requirements ofthe AD". If entry is made below, this form shall be made part of the permanent aircraft maintenance records.
BINGO! .
NX1PA
How’s the old saying go, easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission?
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Yes, its insured.
Now I must be punished for being a good boy scout and following the rules. Sounds like a helicopter ride is in its future. I don't have swing mount. It even if, would be ridiculous try to pull engine out on a gravel bar w/ no road access and open up the accessory case to change the crank gear bolt and keeper. That is not a "clean room".
This sucks!!!!
I must have missed something. What makes you believe you have to change the crank?
Also, per the SB, it looks like it could be any of 5 different bolts and keepers. STD-2246 and LW-18639 is the only pair that comes up on Univair site.
Any guesses?
It's an O320-A1A s/n L3502-27. New in 1957, only overhaul was 6/1992. Has approx 750hrs SMOH.
Mikey
Sorry if I misspoke, does not require splitting the case, just pulling the accessory case off and inspecting the crankshaft drive gear and installing a new bolt on it.
Mikey
Hi Mikey,
Sorry for your troubles. Yes, it sucks BTDT, but it's really not that bad. Before you go any farther, stop and think. Don't let internet advice make a bad hand worse (including anything I say here). But the fact that your cub is there, suggests there should have been another parked next to it with a prop and tools for YOU to hang it before your oil cooled... I say it that way, because you shouldn't get to hang that liability on a friend. I'm all for rolling the dice on a ferry if it makes sense, but you need to own that responsibility. And at least that's how quick it would have rolled down here.
But what the heck, it wasn't in the cards, and now the whole www... knows. So what? You had to do the prop strike AD, and potentially other inspections and repairs (do you have slicks? for example) anyway.... so now you get to do them next to the river. BTDT too by the way
A swing mount would have made life easier (as would a Sutton Exhaust, but I can assure you far more invasive engine work has been done on a river bank than a simple prop strike AD or two. And since you would have had to play test pilot had you just miraculously found your prop striken airplane in your hangar to do the AD, now you will get to make the flight out with the piece of mind that the big pieces are still big pieces and the plastic gears (if you have those) are still whole. My last crank inspection occurred at Somerton airport, in the sand, in a place known for wind moving sand dunes. That engine is still doing just fine.
Been around for a simple 'track the prop with a stick in the sand' and fly it out, been around for the whole enchilada on the sand, and been around for the helicopter ride from the sand. Some of my own doing, some of helping a friend or two out. My vote would be for returning with a few more tools, a competent mechanic and a good prop. And when you get it home and fixed, Pay it forward to the next guy that needs a hand out of a jam.
Do this stuff long enough and sooner or later you will either get to experience it, or help someone else who did. Sounds like you've been on both sides of the deal. Good luck!
Take care, Rob
Talk to your insurer. When I had an engine failure (not covered) they were on the hook for recovery and they refused to use a helicopter. The plane sat on floats tied to a river bank for two months before the new engine arrived and then two mechanics and I removed the old and lifted the new one into place by hand while standing in the mud and swatting mosquitoes. The insurer paid all costs for doing the work on site. Quite the adventure. I hope your situation gets resolved quickly.
Rob liked this post
FWIW......it's never a good idea to try to straighten the prop some by pulling on it with a pickup that's anchored by a tractor.
"Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
Just went through the issue of prop strikes with our FSDO and they seem to have been given some new guidance on ferry flights with the new application system. I asked the hypothetical question of getting a ferry permit after a prop strike and was asked "How would you make the determination the aircraft is safe for the intended flight ? Do you have alternate data to the mandatory manufacturers service information ?" This was after a contentious ferry permit exchange on structural damage that had a letter of "no technical objections" from the manufacturer to the parameters requested for the flight that FAA had denied.
There seemed to be a position that there would be no ferry permit for a prop strike as it is contrary to both 475C & 533C.
My next question was to an insurance adjuster that requested a flight about coverage for the ferry flight if I were to wrangle a permit out of the FAA. The answer was no, too high risk.
My PMI at the FSDO tells me ferry permits may become rare creatures other than simple expired annuals and to expect to see a requirement to submit a list of actions to be performed prior to issuance. I saw somewhere in the system a requirement for an oil change and filter exam to be logged within the prior 5 hours of operation before a ferry permit would be issued on expired inspections.
I really doubt there will be standardization of the process, never happened so far with the FAA. Geez, sometimes I go ask FAA mom when FAA dad says no and get the answer I want.
So at this point, a helicopter recovery is most likely. What is the consensus on how to lift it. Can it be done with the wings on? I don't have lifting rings on top like a float -12 would. I'm thinking pull the wing root fairings off so that could strap under/around the spar attach points. Is it normally a 2 point harness or require a 3rd on tail? Lock the controls and trim for neutral?
I saw the Airframes Alaska guys video and believe they put spoiler wing covers on. Don't remember if they 2x4' braced the wing struts too. Also heard about using a drag chute off the tail to keep it behaving inflight.
Around here? They don’t need lifting rings and I haven’t seen them use a drag chute in the last 20 years. My advice? Stand back and let them do what they’re hired to do.
Good advice. Thx
The helicopter crew will rig it the way they want it. BTW, not sure if they all do this, but in past, they required you sell them the plane for ~ a dollar, and they sell it back to you at destination. Liability, in case they have to drop it.So at this point, a helicopter recovery is most likely. What is the consensus on how to lift it. Can it be done with the wings on? I don't have lifting rings on top like a float -12 would. I'm thinking pull the wing root fairings off so that could strap under/around the spar attach points. Is it normally a 2 point harness or require a 3rd on tail? Lock the controls and trim for neutral?
I saw the Airframes Alaska guys video and believe they put spoiler wing covers on. Don't remember if they 2x4' braced the wing struts too. Also heard about using a drag chute off the tail to keep it behaving inflight.
MTV
Well that escalated quickly....So at this point, a helicopter recovery is most likely. What is the consensus on how to lift it. Can it be done with the wings on? I don't have lifting rings on top like a float -12 would. I'm thinking pull the wing root fairings off so that could strap under/around the spar attach points. Is it normally a 2 point harness or require a 3rd on tail? Lock the controls and trim for neutral?
I saw the Airframes Alaska guys video and believe they put spoiler wing covers on. Don't remember if they 2x4' braced the wing struts too. Also heard about using a drag chute off the tail to keep it behaving inflight.
Here's a few more considerations for you.
1) MTV and SB are right. A pro is going to show up, and he is going to rig it how HE wants... Odds are good neither he nor your insurance co. wants you there, and for good reason. Having said that, a true pro will listen to anything a client has to offer, even if they are diplomatically dismissing 99.9% of it. We do this a lot.
2) How bad do you want your airplane back? At this rate it is going to be the insurance companies (which may or may not be a bad thing?) Engine teardown + heli ride + almost guaranteed 'collateral damage' if it isn't done with the airplane's best interest in mind = a potential total loss depending on your hull coverage.
3) Collateral Damage; almost every retrieval I'm familiar with that wasn't flown out on it's own suffered more damage during the retrieval than during the wreck. I'll bet your adjuster confirms the same. The correct way to bring a dinged cub out under a helicopter is on lifting tabs / rings with spoilered wing covers on. Without spoilers, there's a chance it (the cub) flies, this is bad, and if it does it will get dumped. If they pull the wings and sling it in one load the wings will be beat to snot and likely need gone through. If they sling it in two loads, you just got that much closer to a total loss.
A correct cub pick ;
Some of the AK contingent (at least the older ones) might recognize Dave King's Aloutte. Rest In Peace. Some of the heli guys or switch hitters might wonder how in the world you pick something like that with an Aloutte (almost no straight down vis)? He was just THAT good.
4) Again, watch out for that advice thing (including mine), but were it me, that thing would have lifting rings and wing covers on it by the time the heli got there. And that is assuming I got bullied by the insurance co., LE, or the feds out of first trying to ferry it out (legally). Then any reasonably experienced heli driver would just pick it up and set it down next to the nearest road that would allow you to pull the wings and take it to the barn. If he can't see that, it's going to cost in money, or damage, either is bad for an attempt to keep it.
Conversely, I received an inreach message from a very esteemed member of the flock here who had a little issue and force landed in some of the most remote and precarious ground in our state. Good coordinates came via in reach and a few hours later he was on his way home with me to gather parts / tools. We returned a few days later equipped to build an engine, and a few hours later, off he flew. Think everything through. Then sleep on it and think it through again.
Again, Good luck!
Take care, Rob
Last edited by Rob; 08-30-2023 at 12:49 AM.
Been a minute or two, but did quite a few back in the day.. Try to get someone with experience lifting airplanes. Every load flies different.
Last edited by mam90; 08-30-2023 at 06:33 AM.
make sure they use, or provide them with a spreader bar.
I saw a certain Bearhawk flier, after an event at Mile Hi, check the runout with a strategically placed fingernail on the spinner, deemed it good, and flew it outa there ..
The CG of a Cub suspended by lift rings won’t work under a helicopter. I’ve only watched a few recoveries and they didn’t use lifting rings. The only relocation I know of that did nearly ended in disaster when one ring failed while the plane was in the air. Maybe Scooter will chime in. When he had an accident in 7779M the damage was repairable until the recovery crew got ahold of it. That’s what led him to ask me to buy my -12. But his pick wasn’t as ideal as this one. As recoveries go, this one is pretty simple.
Repairing it on the sandbar would be my choice. And likely the insurer’s. A knock-down engine hoist would be easy to fly in. 2 days and fly away without needing a ferry permit.
Last edited by stewartb; 08-30-2023 at 09:53 AM.
Local guy here had his cub end up on a very busy tourist beach, he called the local heli company to lift it the couple miles back to the airport, and they informed him it was 26k, the insurance didn’t go for they, they took the wings off and trucked it back.
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Price and right decision on what to do is all over the board. I had a call to go check on a Pacer that was landed on a cub strip, went of the end of the strip into tall grass with no damage until the pilot turned it around and hit a hole getting back to the runway. I flew over the strip/plane at least 15 times trying to access the situation then asked myself why I did not land and walk it. Then it occurred to me the inner voice was saying stay off of it!! I flew back and informed the pilot that we could get a prop and strut into the plane but that would only be so he could crash it better on takeoff (strip had standing water over 80 percent of it) that is why he hydroplaned off the end. He took my advice to called local crew for pick up and delivery to Birchwood. It cost him 1,500 bucks. Granted it was only a 30 mile trip but still a great bang for the buck. Another plane that was playing on sandbar in high wind flipped, got back over with little damage, once a new prop showed up pilot tried to taxi in the high wind and the second time it went over did it right and Helicopter brought it out for major rebuild. I know a guy that got a prop on a set of skis (It is a very advanced technique and seldom seen but possible). He was back in the air in 90 min. What to do, how to do it, and when to do it just depends on what you have on hand.
DENNY
Bill.Brine thanked for this post
Spreader bars, straps to spars, cargo nets over the entire plane and go.
It is NOT rocket science.
That said, a good pilot can pick your cub out of a lake by the tail and let it drain while lifting and rolling it upright. A medium pilot will destroy it dropping it down on the ramp when it gets back home...
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
Repairing it on the sandbar would be my choice. And likely the insurer’s. A knock-down engine hoist would be easy to fly in. 2 days and fly away without needing a ferry permit.I agree. It's a big pain, but doable IF you've already determined that the crank flange is within limits.
Sigh.... this really isn't rocket science. Sorry again for your situation, I'm done posting on this one because there are clearly many ways to skin this cat, and at this point all the noise is just adding to the your confusion.
That's funny stuff.... CG is not black magic. It doesn't know how the airplane is in the air. I didn't make the picture up, but I was there to upright the plane, hook the spreader bar to the lifting rings, and cover the wings, although a cargo net as AK suggested would work just fine as would removing the wing root fairings and wrapping straps around the spars (where the lifting rings attach by the way). But in a prior life, you and every poster on the forum got to pay me to hook the load on much more precarious deals
I only suggested using rings, because there is no doubt in my mind that if it were mine, and it had to get a ride out, that's how I'd do it. And because I just can't imagine owning a cub (land or sea) and not having lifting rings, once you've hoisted your cub up on a gantry in your barn, you'll never be without a set. A lifting ring the won't carry the weight of your cub, shouldn't be on it.
And yes, were it mine, I would have done the inspections / repairs there and flown away before the entire www... got in a titty twist over what flies and what doesn't ...
Take care, Rob
Last edited by Rob; 08-30-2023 at 02:05 PM.
All the airplanes I’ve seen under helicopters have been rigged to ride in level flight attitude.
If you have choices between heli companies I'd call around and find out who's the go-to for airplane pick ups and go with the best even if they have to come from further away or have a higher hourly rate. With lifting eyes, spreader bar, wing covers w/ spoilers a plane can be hooked up and ready to go in about 5 to 10 minutes and transported without damage. The wing covers with spoilers cut the lift to the wing so the plane doesn't fly under the heli. I liked the suggestion to install lifting eyes prior to the lift, if that's possible.
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