View Poll Results: So was this helpful and will you use it in the future?

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  • No way your crazy - get new tires!

    10 22.73%
  • Possibly - but I'm not sure now..

    8 18.18%
  • Most likely, Thanks!

    12 27.27%
  • Heck YES! Save me the $2,200!! Thanks Dave!

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Thread: 26" ABW Airstreaks, repairing with bedliner material - Herculiner Brush / Roll on

  1. #1
    Super Dave
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    26" ABW Airstreaks, repairing with bedliner material - Herculiner Brush / Roll on

    Hi Everyone!

    First let me quote part 43: The following is directly from FAR 43 Appendix (A) Paragraph (C):

    "(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:
    (1) Removal, installation, and repair of landing gear tires.
    (2) Replacing elastic shock absorber cords on landing gear...." there is more but I dont need it here.

    Second, I was a Coatings, Spray-in Bedliner and Spray Foam Contractor for many years and I know coatings, prep work ect...

    I have a pair of 26" ABW airstreak tires that Bill installed during the New Holstein '12 show. After many years of service I noticed some cord showing thru. So knowing of several repair methods and seeing several "Rhino Linings" attempts I decided to give it a go.

    I decided against going with a Rhino Linings or some other low pressure applied material mainly because you can't control the thickness and dripping that will occur during the application process. High Pressure systems like Line-X or Arma Coatings contain material that dries very quickly but is not as flexible as the low pressure systems so the brush grade was the answer.

    Ok so what type to use... Bottomline is most people used the Herculiner and its a solvent based system. Solvents most always work better than water borne systems for many reasons - but I don't have the time to go into that here.

    I went to the local Advanced Auto and got the gallon system, got a price break using the "Red Laser" app on my Iphone - it found a lower price from Lowes and I got the price match...

    Then off to the local hardware store for a gallon on MEK and Xylene, nitrile gloves, extra brushes, clean shop rags.

    I raised the aircraft and jacked the wheels at the supports behind the tires. Cleaned the tires with a good degreaser and washed them twice. I then used a 60 grit sandpaper to scuff the side walls to the "Bead Line" so no shiny rubber remained.

    Next step was to clean the tire with MEK, twice - to get any residual material, grease, gunk ect off the tire.
    I then lowered the pressure to 4 PSI.

    Now please understand that the prep is EVERYTHING!!! So follow the directions and be very clean!

    Next step was to mix the Herculiner with a drill mixer (Careful not to go to fast and make a mess). I took a large paper soup cup to remove some material from the can to a new can to work from.

    Then it was off to the tire. I used a 2" brush to apply a thin tack coat to start off. I coated the entire surface to the side "lines" and let it dry until it was no longer mostly tacky - about 3 hours at 70 F and 70% humidity, in the shade.

    The second coat - Brush coat - thick! Again not letting it run off the side lines and keep moving the tire every 5 minutes so it didn't drip until it was tacky - not wet to the touch - 1 hour, same conditions.

    Let set overnight to completely cure / harden..

    Third coat - I again applied a heavy coat but this time I used the supplied roller. This allowed me to apply an even coat and gave it a great texture finish.

    I removed the tires to let them "Bake" in the sun for the remainder of the day and let them dry / cure overnight.

    Next day I reinstalled the tires, inflated them to 10 PSI and off I went!

    I used about 1/2 of the gallon on this application.

    Worked Excellent! Ill post more photos as they progress with use.

    If you have questions my email is cubsfloatsandfun@gmail.com or call me at 318-880-7787.

    Thanks and good luck!
    Dave Lewis



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    Last edited by davidv.lewis; 03-30-2015 at 03:53 PM.

  2. #2
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    I did this with a used set of 31's. Herculiner is what I used also. It did not bond for very long for me. It seemed fine at first, but then when I got it muddy or wet, all it takes is one little crack and it will start debonding. To be fair, the 31's I had were checked pretty good. I prepped pretty much the same as you did, and did some belt sanding. Having said that, I have heard of outstanding results with Rhino linings. In fact these same tires were sold to someone else and the Rhino Linings worked excellent. YMMV.

    Keep us posted how yours hold up.

  3. #3
    cruiser's Avatar
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    I am not following the connection between owner preventative maintenance and the repair using Rhino liner. Can you expand on that?

  4. #4
    Super Dave
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    Its a repair that you as the owner can do. Like painting a cowling or adding oil, you or someone on your direction can do that for you, its allowed under part 43.

  5. #5

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    Hmmm - if it works on 26", maybe it would work on 8:00x4, which are almost as expensive?

  6. #6
    cruiser's Avatar
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    "Repair" being the key word I will guess. Will be interesting to see where this goes. Thanks, Jim
    Likes pfm liked this post

  7. #7
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    Hope it works out for ya they look great , but if I had to bet I don't think it could ever bond to the orginal compound enough to stay on for very long as soon as the tires start getting worked the stuff is likely to begin to separate......................... but I hope I am wrong!!!!
    E

  8. #8
    Super Dave
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    Repair means the elimination of damage or restoration of a damaged airframe,powerplant, propeller, appliance, or part thereof.

  9. #9
    Super Dave
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    Ill let everyone know, and if it does then ill remove and try the Rhino Linings.

  10. #10
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    A former thread on this topic mentioned DuPont Bed Armor from NAPA as being fortified with Kevlar and giving good results. I do not have any personal experience though.
    Gordon

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    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

  11. #11
    Tim's Avatar
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    David, me and a bunch of other guys have been doing what you did for years. The only thing I do different is inflate the tires to what ever pressure you normally run them at. Another thing I do is leave the tires off the ground for 3 or 4 days, it takes it that long to completely cure, with weight on the tires to quick you might get flat spots.

  12. #12
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    David, me and a bunch of other guys have been doing what you did for years. The only thing I do different is inflate the tires to what ever pressure you normally run them at. Another thing I do is leave the tires off the ground for 3 or 4 days, it takes it that long to completely cure, with weight on the tires to quick you might get flat spots.
    What ever Timmy has been doing works, he's been screwing BWs outa a new set for years.

    Glenn

  13. #13

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    Well, I'll be damned.
    Seems like I heard of someone shooting Rhino Liner on 31s a long time ago.

  14. #14
    Super Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs66 View Post
    I did this with a used set of 31's. Herculiner is what I used also. It did not bond for very long for me. It seemed fine at first, but then when I got it muddy or wet, all it takes is one little crack and it will start debonding. To be fair, the 31's I had were checked pretty good. I prepped pretty much the same as you did, and did some belt sanding. Having said that, I have heard of outstanding results with Rhino linings. In fact these same tires were sold to someone else and the Rhino Linings worked excellent. YMMV.

    Keep us posted how yours hold up.
    I bet it was the prep, you mostlikley didn't get it completely clean or contaminated it before the application. When mine was ready the tire felt a little tacky.

  15. #15
    Super Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    A former thread on this topic mentioned DuPont Bed Armor from NAPA as being fortified with Kevlar and giving good results. I do not have any personal experience though.
    Kevlar is only good when its woven, no real benefit in a coating as a "fortification" .....

  16. #16
    Super Dave
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    More information as it relates to a "repair" and FAR 43.13

    So I got the following email, great information so I thought it would be good to post here...

    43.13 is the Aircraft inspection, repair and alteration manual detailing acceptable methods, techniques and practices to the FAA. This is the "how to" manual when it comes to repairs and alterations. Para 1-36 is section 1 paragraph 36 defining what a repair is.

    I will quote it.

    "The basic standard for any aircraft repair is that the repaired structure must be as strong as the original structure and be equivalent to the original in rigidity and aerodynamic shape. Repairs should be made in accordance with manufacturers specifications whenever such data is available".

    As I said I have used Rhino liner. I doubt it meets the standard as far as being as strong as the original structure. And Bushwheels certainly will not agree that it meets their specifications for a repair. Since there is no specification for the repair of a Bushwheel tire in this manner. At least in my opinion.

    Great point - so here is my reply:


    Ok, so here is where I say that the herculiner is a repair as defined by 43.13.


    First off herculiner is a single component polyurethane and is by definition a “paint”, no special equipment is required to apply it or special training, unlike Rhino or Arma or Line-X.


    Now as far as "the repaired structure must be as strong as the original structure and be equivalent to the original in rigidity and aerodynamic shape” The bed-liner is of a greater strength in comparison to the original tire material as noted by the technical data sheet.


    - Shore “A” hardness is greater on the bed-liner material as opposed to the rubber tire. The objective - scientific measurements of the 2 materials show that to be true;

    Herculiner is a Shore “A” of 85 to 90

    Tire tread on a normal car is Shore “A” 60, the material on the Bushwheels is softer than a regular tire so about a 50 to 55.


    So by definition I believe that the application of the herculiner meets or exceeds the material requirement,


    Next is the aerodynamic shape, virtually no change there.


    ABW will not agree as they have a vested interest in everyone getting new tires, There is no spec on recovering the tires and under current FAA rules / guidelines I would say this method is acceptable.

  17. #17

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    Who are you trying to convince?

  18. #18
    Super Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carey Gray View Post
    Who are you trying to convince?
    Umm no one, why? Im just presenting information and I am not selling anything. Curious about your question, seems odd....

  19. #19

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    I suppose.

    Bugs is pretty thorough, with this attention to detail thing and yet the Herculiner didn't stick. If Bugs says a piss ant can pull a freight train--hitch 'em up.
    The same tires were sprayed with Rhino Liner and it did stick, just looked at them this weekend and they looked great.
    Last edited by Carey Gray; 03-31-2015 at 12:27 PM.

  20. #20
    Super Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carey Gray View Post
    I suppose.

    Bugs is pretty thorough, with this attention to detail thing and yet the Herculiner didn't stick. If Bugs says a piss ant can pull a freight train--hitch 'em up.
    The same tires were sprayed with Rhino Liner and it did stick, just looked at them this weekend and they looked great.
    Carey, Ok I get it. Again for you and everyone else, I was a spray on bedliner contractor for 12 years and I have coated over 10K trucks. I have also applied everything from single component urethanes to epoxies to polyureas. I know that this will stick as I have used similar products in the past on conveyor belts. I have done my homework and I know this will work.

    I did get a question as to why I lowered the pressure of the tire. This and other types of coatings will stretch but they don't retract very good. That is a possible way to lead to adhesion failure.

    Bottom line is time will tell. My gut is telling me that this product will perform very well and it affords the opportunity to recoat down the road if necessary. Any adhesion or bonding failures is usually a result of improper preparation or application.

  21. #21

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    And, so concludes my interest in this subject.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carey Gray View Post
    And, so concludes my interest in this subject.
    Glad you concluded. I didn't like your responses to a fellow just trying to help fellow pilots out with some good info.

  23. #23
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    Carey, you and I have been around here a long time, as has Buggs. I corresponded with Buggs a few years ago and told him what I know about the subject. Not sure why it did not stick on his tires, but Herculiner has been sticking on my tires for 5 or 6 years maybe longer, can't remember. When it wears down I clean it and recoat, no problem. Don't know anything about the legality, I'm experimental. I'd like to know what the difference is between the Herc. stuff and the Rhino lining. We need a chemist

  24. #24
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    Herculiner works great for me. Zero issues with it flaking off, I simply wear it off somewhere between 75 and 125 hrs or so and then I blow another 35 bucks and a throw away brush and I am good to go for another go round. I got real anal the first coat, using Zylene to prep them, subsequent coats I just soap and watered them. I never messed with the PSI, coated them at my usual. 3/4 days wait time unless its pretty warm is the only drawback. Good for you Roddy. Experimental here so no worries there. This subject seems to inspire strong opinions for and against!

  25. #25

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    Devcon Flexane 94 urethane.
    use the recommended primer prior to application.

  26. #26

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    I don't have strong opinions for or against. I'm experimental, I sprayed my tires and they worked great. I do know two guys that were going to use Herculiner, scrubbed, prepped with Zylene and had them fail. I helped with one set. It was a way better plan, but it didn't work. I've tried all kinds of stuff that didn't work. I talked a recapper into trying a set of 26" Bushwheels. They were terrible. For me, plenty of failed attempts with time and money wasted.
    If some guys are getting Herculiner to work, full steam ahead. God bless 'em. No negativity here.
    I have some strong opinions, just not about tires.

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    ...And a variable speed rotisserie

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  28. #28
    Tim's Avatar
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    Oliver, a guy here tried that method a few years ago with mixed results, let us know how it works out

  29. #29
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    For all the experimental guys I guess this is all well and good but a little background on the certification of Alaskan Bushwheels might be in order here. When Bill Duncan bought Alaskan Bushwheels and moved it to Joseph they were already certified. While talking to some of the former employees he found out that the testing was done around the kitchen table. That didn't sit well with Bill and he sent the tires to a testing facility to verify that they met the tire TSO required by the FAA. They barely passed. The tires were redesigned and went into production with the FAA's blessing. I doubt very seriously that any of these coating applied to Bushwheels would pass the FAA's test. If you think applying these coatings is covered by "preventive maintenance" I would have to guess wrong as well. I can't quote chatper and verse but I bet if you called the FAA they would not agree with you. I know there are lots of airplanes running around with it but do you think an airline pilot with an ATP is going to risk his ticket over the price of a set of Bushwheels? What about your insurance premium or the lawyer who comes after you for some unrelated reason. Unfortunately events in my life have made me think the way I do so I thought I would put this out there for something to think about.

    As many of you know I purchased a 1972 PA18-150 back in November. Pretty stock airplane except for VGs and Dakota brakes. When I got it home I installed my 29" Bushwheels and Baby Bushwheel off of my Pacer along with a Borer prop I had rat holed away. While playing on the gravel bars I started noticing that I was eroding away the leading edge of my prop. I remember Steve Kracke at Atlee Dodge contacting me about a set of 3" extended gear he had sent to Texas that was the wrong axle diameter. I gave him a call and made a deal. I also had a set of 31" Bushwheels that had cords showing and I coated them with bedliner and installed them on my airplane. I now had plenty of prop clearance and I was happy. Getting close to the restoration seminar and I knew Bill Duncan was coming down. Bill has been very good to me over the years and I have a great respect for him and value his friendship. Needless to say I was embarrassed when he saw my tires. He didn't say much but I could tell he was disappointed. I have thought long and hard about it and for me it doesn't pass the smell test. I am an A&P/IA with hopefully a reputation for doing things right. I started thinking what message I would be sending if I show up at Llano and other events with bedlinered tires. What will the Feds think of it. Is my reputation and license worth it. To me the answer is no. Last night I sold my 29" Bushwheels to a friend and will be ordering a new set of 31"s this afternoon. Personal decision for me. Again, just something to think about.
    Steve Pierce

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  30. #30
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I agree with Steve. Dont think bedliner on a certified plane's tires will pass the smell test. Your insurance carrier would probably faint.

    IMHO, YMMV

    Eddie
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  31. #31
    Super Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    . I doubt very seriously that any of these coating applied to Bushwheels would pass the FAA's test. If you think applying these coatings is covered by "preventive maintenance" I would have to guess wrong as well. I can't quote chapter and verse but I bet if you called the FAA they would not agree with you.
    Thanks Steve, If I was in your position I would most likely make the same decision. but with all the information that was talked about above - 43.13 and FAR 43 Appendix (A) Paragraph (C) I feel comfortable with my decision. I am not in the business of repairing or selling aircraft nor am I an A&P. Again this can be discussed over and over and opinions will vary - even with the FAA.

    I had to answer several questions for myself. 1. Is it allowed in the letter of the Regulation - I believe yes. 2. Is it safe and would I put my family on the aircraft - yes. 3. Does this make sense? Yes.

    I am not looking to put ABW out of business or harm them and I have nothing but good feelings about Bill and ABW. I called and asked if they retread the tires like Dresser, the answer was no and I was told to purchase new ones. Well that I thought was not a good answer as other tire manufactures do retread tires and offer that service. So I did my research and coated them. I offered this experience here so others can learn and make that decision for themselves. It would be great if ABW did start to offer a trade in program or recapping service, if that was available I would most likely taken advantage of it.

  32. #32
    Super Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefoy84 View Post
    I agree with Steve. Dont think bedliner on a certified plane's tires will pass the smell test. Your insurance carrier would probably faint.

    IMHO, YMMV

    Eddie
    Again, there is nothing in FAR 43 that states what you can and cant repair your tires with. I don't see how this doesn't pass a "smell" test and I don't see that the repair needs to pass a test that the manufacturer must pass when they make the tires.

    43.13 Para 1-36 is section 1 paragraph 36 defining what a repair is.


    "The basic standard for any aircraft repair is that the repaired structure must be as strong as the original structure and be equivalent to the original in rigidity and aerodynamic shape. Repairs should be made in accordance with manufacturers specifications whenever such data is available".


    There is no data available from ABW.

  33. #33
    Super Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruiser View Post
    I am not following the connection between owner preventative maintenance and the repair using Rhino liner. Can you expand on that?
    Its a repair that you as the owner can do. Like painting a cowling or adding oil, you or someone on your direction can do that for you, its allowed under part 43.

  34. #34
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    If the bedliner comes off a tire it is a little different consequence than if paint comes off.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers

  35. #35
    Super Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    If the bedliner comes off a tire it is a little different consequence than if paint comes off.
    True, but when the ground speed is 40 knots or less, how far/much will come off? What will it hit? wing?

    Good points, thoughts Steve?

  36. #36
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    All I know is dropping $3-4K for a set of tires is a one time deal for me. I've been to the factory and have a great appreciation for the work that goes into the ABW. They are a fine work of craftsmanship. However, when mine start to show wear it's bedliner time. No mas dinero.

  37. #37
    Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs66 View Post
    All I know is dropping $3-4K for a set of tires is a one time deal for me. I've been to the factory and have a great appreciation for the work that goes into the ABW. They are a fine work of craftsmanship. However, when mine start to show wear it's bedliner time. No mas dinero.
    Ha, looks like Buggs hit the nail on the head from here

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidv.lewis View Post
    Its a repair that you as the owner can do. Like painting a cowling or adding oil, you or someone on your direction can do that for you, its allowed under part 43.
    Being the owner doing preventive maintenance on a certified airplane doesn't let you ignore the FARs. From 43.13--
    (a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in Sec. 43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices.

    Is coating a tire with bedliner described in a maintenance manual?
    Is coating a tire with bedliner acceptable to the FAA administrator?
    Is coating a tire with bedliner described in an Instruction for Continued Airworthiess?
    Is coating a tire with bedliner an accepted industry practice?
    I don't see the FAA acceping a yes to any of these.

    (b) Each person maintaining or altering, or performing preventive maintenance, shall do that work in such a manner and use materials of such a quality, that the condition of the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance worked on will be at least equal to its original or properly altered condition (with regard to aerodynamic function, structural strength, resistance to vibration and deterioration, and other qualities affecting airworthiness).

    If the bedliner flakes off or otherwise separates from the tire, does it meet the "original or properly altered condition"? Does the "tread" of bushwheels flake off before bedliner is applied?
    I don't see a yes here either.

    The one thing I am having difficulty finding is about the non-airworthiness of a bias tire when wear, cracks, or cuts expose the underlying fabric. Would we agree that a bushwheel worn to the cord no longer meets the FAA's definition of airworthy? Does applying bedliner make an nonairworthy tire airworthy again? Is there even an accepted industry practice of recapping a tire that is worn to the cord showing? As much as I sympathize with the desire to extend the life of a very expensive tire, I think this a losing argument for all but the experimental guys and maybe a loser for them too, unless they are documenting coating tires as an experiment. That might depend on just what it says in the operational limitations and how it's interpreted. jrh
    You can't get there from here. You have to go over yonder and start from there.

  39. #39
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    If it works for you that is great. i wouldnt do it on a bet.

    Eddie




    Quote Originally Posted by davidv.lewis View Post
    Again, there is nothing in FAR 43 that states what you can and cant repair your tires with. I don't see how this doesn't pass a "smell" test and I don't see that the repair needs to pass a test that the manufacturer must pass when they make the tires.

    43.13 Para 1-36 is section 1 paragraph 36 defining what a repair is.


    "The basic standard for any aircraft repair is that the repaired structure must be as strong as the original structure and be equivalent to the original in rigidity and aerodynamic shape. Repairs should be made in accordance with manufacturers specifications whenever such data is available".


    There is no data available from ABW.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  40. #40
    cruiser's Avatar
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    I view adding a protective layer of whatever product you choose to your tires sort of similarly adding a protective layer of UHMW to the bottom of a pair of skis. Remember that your skis are also a TSO'd product and modifying them with plastic may be questionable also. Not one member here would give a second look to a pair of skis with plastic on them, in fact if you don't have plastic on them people would give them a second look. Adding a protective layer of Herculiner to extend the life of a $3500+ pair of tires seems reasonable to me. Doing it under owner preventative maintenance, well, that might be a grey area. Jim

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