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Thread: Building and finishing my 2+2/PA 14

  1. #81
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty57 View Post
    Marty, Is this your fuselage or just an example of the use of the steel nut? The reason that I ask is because I am questioning the weld joints of the two flat tabs, with the large burned out notch to the vertical tab and wondering what is the purpose of that cross tube. What is the load path through both? If that upper tube is part of the primary structure the tube should have it's load path centered in the cluster not in a bending location.
    N1PA

  2. #82

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    The picture looks like it is left side of PA18 3rd seat seatbelt mod. Dogleg tube on right side and gingerbread for extended baggage.
    DENNY

  3. #83
    Marty57's Avatar
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    DENNY is correct; this is from a PA-18 third seat. This is from the Airframes Alaska web site. I posted this as a possible example of an alternate tab; specifically just the tab with the welded nut. A strap with a welded nut might come in handy in other tab locations where getting a nut on the seat belt would be a problem. I'm more interested in what others think of the drawing I suggested.
    Marty
    N367PS
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  4. #84
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Other than the requirement of sliding it over the tube before the tube is welded in place, it is fine. You might wait to weld it until after the tube is welded in order to be able to fine tune it's alignment. Also it could be strong enough with just some tacks with no need to weld all the way around. Alternatively rather than a hole to slide over the tube it could be a "U" shape. Then it could be made stronger by heating and bending over the edge after welding the curved section. Then welding that bent over section to the tube.
    N1PA

  5. #85

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    I think sliding it over the tube is a great plan and as skywagon8a said wait to weld until fine tuned. Do you have elevator cables running under the floor in that area? Just something to check before final weld. I think the high heat nuts are one of the best things you can do to save yourself a lot of grief once the plane is covered. I see way to many cubs built/restored that people get in a hurry and don't do the little things that will make it easier for the next guy that has to work on the plane.
    DENNY

  6. #86
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Just one more thought about the nut. Over time the locking feature can become unreliable particularly since it has been welded upon. So it may be a good idea to have an alternative method of locking the bolt. Like perhaps a hole in the head for safety wire. I would hate to have a seat belt bolt (or any bolt) fall out just because it was not easily seen.

    Another thought about the double sheer attachment. You could weld a second triangular tab over the first one leaving a space for the seat belt attachment to fit in between. Make the base of the second triangle about 3/16" less that the first. This will help to distribute the weld rather than concentrate it in one place.
    N1PA

  7. #87
    Marty57's Avatar
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    DENNY,
    No cables in the center area of the fuselage in that location. There is a push/pull tube that connects the sticks to a bellcrank further back. I'm beginning to like the idea of the slip on tabs. I could just as easily weld it after everything is in place to fine tune the angles; good idea. Other than purchasing the tabs from Airframes Alaska, I can make the tabs my self but need to find a weldable lock nut that can be gas welded (not stainless steel).

    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
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  8. #88
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    These will work. They even have a space to tack weld keeping heat away from the threaded portion.
    https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...es/ms21042.php
    N1PA

  9. #89
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Since the bolt is in pure shear, maybe something like this could be good, if available in a self-locking style? http://www.mcmaster.com/#cage-nuts/=zzucal
    Gordon

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  10. #90

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    I hate the clip on nuts/tabs I have screw tabs some behind the side panels in my cub and they never seen to line up right.
    DENNY

  11. #91
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    N1PA

  12. #92
    Marty57's Avatar
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    I need to see what bolt hole size is for the seat belts. I think it's 3/8". I did find a 3/8" floating nut plate from Genuine Aircraft Hardware; about 45 minutes from here. That might be an option. In the mean time, I got in the new seat rails today. I'll install them first so I can get a better idea of the exact locations for the seat belt tabs. Thanks for the ideas.
    Marty
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  13. #93
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    1/4" bolt with a bushing of 3/8" O.D. Bolt is tightened on the bushing leaving the seat belt free to float.
    N1PA

  14. #94
    Marty57's Avatar
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    I'm done with the front seat tracks and the front seat belt attach points. I purchased a blank set of Piper seat track extrusions and completed the installation along the same lines that I had been heading. I was able to use the shim to gain about 3" more seat travel past the floor angle change. This gave me much easier entry and exit from the front seats. These new tracks resulted in very easy movement of the seats. I'll have a stop t each end of travel so the seats can't slip off the tracks.

    The seat belt attachments were pretty easy, once I decided on the approach I wanted to go. There sure are a lot of ways to do this. In the end, my set up is simply a variation on what I found in a number of different aircraft. I added a cross tube that I welded the two fittings on for the center belt attach points. The tabs are .125" thick and welded around on a 3/4" .065 tube. The side fittings are 1-1/8" wide .090" 4130 welded across a triangle created by adding one short tube near the door opening cluster. The piece is drilled for a floating nut plate to be added after painting.

    I still need to decide on the attach point for the shoulder harness but I may just loop the belt around the upper cross tube. I'll decide after I put the fuselage in a rotisserie for final welding of all these fittings I've been adding.
    Next step is on to the back seat.

    Here's a few pictures of the finished work.

    Marty





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    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  15. #95

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    Looks like you got it solved. Seems like a great solution. Are you going to go with inertial reel seat belts for the shoulder harnesses? If so what brand.

  16. #96
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Good talking to you tonight Duane. I bought the seat belt and shoulder harness kit from Wag Aero; harness is the "Y" type. The inertia reals were just too pricey for my budget. The seat belt turned out to be too short for my set up so I called Aero Fabricators (Wag Aero) about it. No problem. They had me send the belts back to them to add 4" to each of the four belts that make up front lap belts. Nothing wrong with the belts but I thought the catalog length would work but they are to short with belts bolted to floor and my seat all the way forward for my short legs. Nice to work with a company where you can talk to the guy who makes the belts personally. Great service and no charge to remake the belts to my specifications. Not many places give that kind of service these days. On to the back seat.
    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  17. #97
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty57 View Post
    harness is the "Y" type. The inertia reals were just too pricey for my budget.
    Marty
    http://www.paddockspares.com/sec700b...tor-black.html

    I use them and I like it. They are well built and the price is good.

  18. #98
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Hereís whatís been happening over the past couple of months. First, I built up all the necessary hard points for the rear seat (thank Mike https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIcdU1eGjng ). I followed Mikeís design for a removable rear seat with a few little changes. I have a removable tube at the front of the seat where Mikeís PA 12 has the swing down legs only at that location. I will also have legs on the cross tube but decided to have the side supports welded in since the fuselage allowed for that placement. I also added the seat belt tabs for the rear seat. The belts will be easily removable from the center so the floor will be flat and open for cargo. I also added the center mounted flap handle. For simplicity, the cable will be above the tubes in the floor of the fuselage. I may set the plywood floor above the cable or just have a guard, not sure yet. Iím leaning toward having the cable just below the floor for an unobstructed cargo area. Iíll work that out when I install the plywood after painting the fuselage tubes. Next, I started to weld in the many tabs necessary for the floor and sidewalls. I also added another support for the seat tracks. I found the unsupported span of the outside tracks was too great and I had some bending in the track. The extra pad should prevent that from happening. After welding in all the tabs I built a rotisserie so I could finish up the welding of the tubes recently added. Iíll also be able to use the rotisserie for painting and covering. Now some pictures.

    First, the rear seat. This shot shows some plywood and old foam to get a look fit and location of the seat. I also welded tabs on the side tube for the lap belt.

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    The next shot shows the ply and foam removed. You can see the three cross tubes that will support the seat. The bottom of the seat will have additional supports when the floor is in place.

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    This next shot shows the three tubes removed leaving an open cargo area.

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    Next, the center lap belt attachment was added. I welded a tube between the existing tubes in the floor ant attached a pad for both center bent attachments. The belts will come up and out through the seat bottom.

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    I added the flap handle just after the seat cross tubes and lap belt tabs were done. The picture above shows the rear lower pulley for the flaps. I decided to bring the flaps down the middle of the fuselage to avoid additional pulleys to locate the cables along one side or the other. I realize this restricts the lower baggage area but seeing how much space is in the rear set area for cargo, I decided it would fit my needs.

    This picture shows how the flap cables will come from the two wings to a central cable connector, than down the center of the fuselage.

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    I added two pulleys to guide the cable forward toward the flap handle. I could not put the cable below the floor tubes due to the push-pull tube from the sticks to the rear bell crank. If I raise the floor 1" the cable will be between the floor and the tubes.

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    I used a flap handle from a PA-28, making a new support and adding a cross tube.

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    With the flap handle in place, I added a couple more pads for the seat tracks to the flap handle cross tube. I also added a couple short tubes and two more seat track support tabs forward of the flap tube. This will give me 4 support points for each seat track.

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    This next picture shows the run of the flap cable so far. Lots more to do on the flaps but this gets me closer to where I can paint the fuselage.

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    Next step was adding all the tabs and building a rotisserie for the fuselage. After a trip to a junk yard and modifying a Harbor Freight engine stand I had a nicely working rotisserie.

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    Lots more to do before I can paint the fuselage but I am getting close. I still need to weld the mount in the tail for the electric trim. I have all the parts from Javron so that will go pretty quickly. More to come soon.

    Marty57
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  19. #99
    Tim's Avatar
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    Marty it looks great. Not sure if I mentioned it to you before but if you haven't made your doors yet, consider making bubble doors. The doors bow out about 3 inches. A guy in AK did it on his 2+2 and it made a world of difference. Just a thought

  20. #100
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Tim,
    Yeah, doors are on the back burner still. They will be a pretty simple frame and I do intend on bowing out the doors some. I need to redo the upper door frame as it's not parallel with the wing. Not a big deal, just something I need to address. Figuring out these flaps was a good project but all in all, not too bad.
    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  21. #101
    Marty57's Avatar
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    I have been attending to lots of final welding of tabs, belt attachment, small tubes, etc. Those chores are all done. I finally got around to installing the electric trim components I purchased from Jay at Javron . Right away I realized that the elevator cables run right where the electric trim was to be located. I mounted my elevator again, ran my temporary cables (cotton cord), and fiddled with the assembly. After getting the tabs and the motor on the correct side for my set up everything was perfect! The elevator cables, as built from the 2+2 plans, runs directly through the elect trim area with no interference and no modification. This set up could not have been any better if the parts had been designed specifically for the 2+2. Way to go Jay. This goes to show how the tail end of the 2+2 fuselage is identical to the Super Cub. Here's a few pictures of the electric trim set up.


    This first picture is with the fuselage up-side-down:
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    You can see how close the cable came to the trim motor as the cable leaves the fairlead. The next shot shows up close how the cable passes through the trim area.

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    All welded in place, ready to work on stop switches and trim indicator cable.

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    Next, I worked on getting all the pulleys dialed in. Each pulley needed to have guards installed to keep the cables in place. Some of the pulleys were done pretty traditionally; some a bit different. Guards can be pretty simple. The overhead pulleys were pretty easy; I just welded a piece of 1/8" welding rod across the edge of the pulley.

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    The next pulleys I did a bit different. I was going to use cotter pins as a guard but I decided instead to weld a piece of 1/8" welding rod where a cotter pin would normally be used. My thoughts were to simplify assembly down the line. By taking the time to weld in the pin there is nothing to forget to install and nothing to come loose. It did take me a bit of time but I welded up four pulleys with this style of guard.

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    The pulleys for my center mounted flaps were more traditional with guards mounted on the bolt. One was welded in place and the other was cut to shape and held in place with the mounting bolt. Pretty simple and straight forward.

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    I have four more pulleys to install guards on; these are above the doors for the aileron cables. I hope to finish these tomorrow. I still need to re-do the sheet metal above my door opening; it's not level with the bottom of the wing surface. After the door fix is done all that is left is a couple of fairleads and tabs for the trim indicator cable, and tabs for a metal belly near the tail wheel. There are likely a few other tabs needed that will come up; hopefully I'll figure that out before I paint the fuselage. Painting should be happening pretty soon.
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  22. #102
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Nice, Marty! I sure would like to have a better trim system than my stock PA-12 arrangement.

    In the fourth picture from the top it looks like the cable isn't aligned to the pulley. Maybe it's the camera angle or maybe it's sag in the string, but I couldn't help but think it might be worth noting.
    Gordon

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  23. #103
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Gordon,
    I thought that picture would raise some eyebrows. That picture is shot from the inside of the fuselage, looking out the right window, The orange blocks at the end of the cable is a clamp so the cable won't fall off the pulley. At that location the cable, that is held by the orange clamp, moves into the wing and connects to the stock Super Cub flap bellcrank inside the wing. Nice to know you are looking over my work with a good eye for things I may (likely will) miss.
    Thanks for the good eyes.
    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  24. #104
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I thought that was probably just an illusion, Marty.

    Here are a couple other thoughts, if I may - -

    In the bottom picture it looks like the guard "could" rotate on the bolt and lose effectiveness. Also, it looks like the cable makes a pretty large wrap around the pulley, maybe close to 90 deg. I think I'd want a guard close to the tangent of each end of the wrap. That way a slightly loose cable wouldn't be able to climb the edge of the pulley and jam against a single central guard. Maybe you could fab a guard bracket that jams against the angle on the pulley bracket so that it can't rotate? Also maybe you'd want to consider removable pins (cotter pins?) as guards, to make cable installation easier. It's nice to be able to replace cables that have the ends made-up, without having to disassemble the entire pulley from a fixed guard.

    Just a little food for thought - -
    Gordon

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  25. #105
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Gordon,
    Same thoughts on the bottom guard as I had; that was the last one I did tonight. The guard is cut so it can't rotate much if it came loose. I think your are right about making a second guard for the upper tangent of the curve. The pulley guards in the wing have a double guard on one pulley in a couple places. Tomorrow I'll re-think that guard. As far as removable pins, I first went that rout. I decided, after drilling a couple of them, that I wasn't satisfied how the cotter pins fit. The ends of the cotter pins were out more than I wanted and could have been a snag issue in a couple places. I did use a cotter pin on the lower flap pulley at the rear of the baggage area since it was out of the way. I plan on making my cables in place since everything is custom length so not a big issue. Good thoughts; it helps me stay on my toes. Sometimes I look at a part so long I no longer "see" it and can miss something. Thanks again for looking over my shoulder.
    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  26. #106
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty57 View Post
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    Marty, Since I'm only looking at a picture I need to ask if there is adequate clearance between the flap cable and the crotch of the tubing? You do not want there to be any chance of the cable to chafe under load. Also there is a considerable load on that pulley when the flaps are pulled full down at maximum flap speeds. This will exert high twisting loads at the weld junction of the bolt tube to the fuselage tube. Without further reinforcement a crack could develop at the weld. One method of increased strength could be placing the bolt tube on the forward side of the fuselage tube. This would move the cable away from the crotch and enable the bolt tube to be shorter. Then if it still needed to be reinforced it would be a simple matter.
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 03-18-2016 at 05:48 AM.
    N1PA

  27. #107
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Skywagon,
    The picture doesn't show the clearance very well. There is about 3/8" between cable and tubes; should be enough. As for the mounting tube for the pulley bolt, the front of the tubes would require changing all the pulleys. I may add a finger strap across the tube or a triangle support gusset under the bolt tube. I have been concerned about the length of the pulley support tube. With everything mounted I can now take a better look and see what may be added.
    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  28. #108
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    i'd say add a gusset to that pulley mount also... seen many fail in flap system when only mounted like that to tube.... and they seem to always fail at the worst time (on final all of a sudden no flaps) (on a -12 the rearmost one done by etc pulls chunk of tube out, or the upper double pulley)

  29. #109
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    What about a longer bolt going thru a support on the tube on the right? Capturing pulley on both sides

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  30. #110
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    What about a longer bolt going thru a support on the tube on the right? Capturing pulley on both sides

    Glenn
    That would work if the bushing in the middle of the pulley was supposed to rotate on the bolt. With ball bearings the center bushing needs to be trapped.
    N1PA

  31. #111
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Advice appreciated on the upper pulley bolt/tube length. I added a .060" gusset between the support tube and the bolt tube. I feel a lot better about the bending action now, thanks a bunch. Next step is to add to the guard on next pulley down the line.

    Marty

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    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  32. #112
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Gordon,
    I changed the middle guard, thanks for the comments. This set up will keep a slack cable in place better around the full cable travel. The last pulley (floor) has a cotter pin for the guard; I drilled that one before welding on the pulley support and it is out of the way.

    Marty

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    This last shot shows how the three pulleys bring the flap cable around the rear of the baggage area toward the flap lever.

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    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  33. #113
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Tabs, tabs and more tabs. Seems all I have been doing is welding on tabs. I think I'm done but ........ what about the firewall? What do I need as far as mounting tabs on the front tubes for the firewall, gascolator, etc. I don't have a gascolator yet but can download the mounting bracket drawing for size and mounting holes. Do I need tabs welded to the tubes for the gascolator or do I just attach it to the firewall? Everything else is welded and ready for paint; all I need to figure out is the firewall? What is the thought out there; nothing in the plans but that's pretty normal. Here's a couple shots of the many tabs I have welded on so far.

    Thanks,
    Marty

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    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  34. #114
    Tim's Avatar
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    looks good Marty

  35. #115
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty57 View Post
    ........ what about the firewall? What do I need as far as mounting tabs on the front tubes for the firewall, gascolator, etc. I don't have a gascolator yet but can download the mounting bracket drawing for size and mounting holes. Do I need tabs welded to the tubes for the gascolator or do I just attach it to the firewall? Everything else is welded and ready for paint; all I need to figure out is the firewall? What is the thought out there; nothing in the plans but that's pretty normal.
    There should be a couple of tabs on the "V" tubes behind the firewall. These lock the firewall into position while you are fitting the wraparound and windshield. Also they help to keep the weight of the firewall assembly from chaffing (cutting) the engine mount bolts. The gascolator just bolts to the firewall.

    I mounted my engine and fitted all of the controls without the firewall in place. Then I measured where the hole should go. This prevented a hole from being placed in the wrong location.
    N1PA

  36. #116
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Skywagon,
    Welded two tabs to the "V", thanks. I think I might be done. I added 10 tabs today and a cross tube just below the cathedral for the rear shoulder harnesses. Tomorrow I'll check over everything and start prepping the frame for paint. It's been a long haul.

    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  37. #117
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    It's been a long haul.
    And a long haul yet to go, but you're doing it! Way to go, Marty!!
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

  38. #118
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Yeah Gordon, your right but .......... but after I get the frame painted I can start bolting things on that will stay on and not need to come off again and again. At that point I will have turned the corner and feel like it's actually being assembled rather than endless fabrication. Last night I figured out a trim indicator wire leading from the electric trim to the the front of the cockpit. I need to weld in a few fairlead mounts than I'm done and ready to prep for paint.

    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
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  39. #119
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Today I finished up the last items remaining before painting the fuselage. I figured out the over head trim indicator wire and welded in the rear shoulder harness mounting tube. The trim wire is pretty standard set-up. I will have a spring at the front just below the top of the fuselage. The spring will have an indicator connected to a wire run aft and connected to the yoke. I made some fairlead type attachments used elsewhere in the wings that will work nicely to run the wires through. They fit snugly in the Piper channel and can be secured with a couple screws or to a riveted plate; final decision will be made after painting during assembly. For the rear shoulder harness, I welded a tube just below the cathedral for the harness to loop around. Pretty simple set up. I can also drape the shoulder harness over the new tube and loop around the lower cross tube if that works better down the line. Next will be prepping the fuselage for paint. I will be cleaning up the rust and treating it before priming and will be removing all the mill finish on the tubes. I'll do some sand blasting but not much. The mill finish on the tubes comes off very easy with sand paper (think polishing shoes at a shoe-shine-stand). All welded joints are clean; they were sanded before welding and treated with clear lacquer so no rust. I'm using Stewarts white primer and will be applying it with a foam brush like I did on the tail feathers. That worked pretty easy. By brushing I can sand a bit and prime right away thereby eliminating any flash rust while waiting to prime the entire fuselage. I have the single part primer that I bought a while ago for the fuselage. Top coat will be Stewarts two part epoxy. Below are some shots of the last phase of fuselage work.

    Marty57

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    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
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  40. #120
    D.A.'s Avatar
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    Awesome Marty!

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