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Thread: Building and finishing my 2+2/PA 14

  1. #1
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Building and finishing my 2+2/PA 14

    I thought I would start a new thread regarding my 2+2 build. As many of you know, I have been scratch building this project for a long time now; that's how these things go some times. I feel like I have turned a corner on the project, moving from the "fabrication" stage to the "completion stage"; what ever that may be. My recent posts have shown the completion of my wings and other topics related to my build. I thought it would be easier to just keep everything in one post as I move forward toward first flight. First, some background of where I am at.

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    As you can see, my wings are done and sitting on a rack allowing me to move them outside as space is needed for other activities. The wings still need fuel tanks and tank covers along with control cables. Although wood, the wings are basically stock Super Cub wings. The flaps use stock Super Cub bell crank and related hardware. The flap handle will likely be between the two front seats but that still needs to be done. The fuselage is basically complete less some final welding. I need to weld in the necessary bushings and such for the control cable pulleys, trim and brakes. I also need to weld in some tabs for the floor and other interior items. The tail feathers are finished and primed in Stewarts Ekopoxy. The rudder is covered and awaiting rib stitching and Ekofill. Ailerons and flaps are in the family room for all to see. I have an engine mount from a PA 12 that I need to repair and reinforce for the O290D2 that I will be using. Why that engine choice? I got the engine from a friend's Pacer when he decided to upgrade to a constant speed prop. I helped pull the engine after properly pickling it for long term storage. I could not turn down the price. A second overhauled O290D2 presented itself to me; again at a great price. I now have two engines. I also have a prop, two carbs, four mags, radios, etc; lots of parts all over the house. This is a long term project; it's all about time and money. I should be in the $25K range when finished, including the second engine. It can be done, it just takes lots of time.

    So now what? I have been working on the torque tube for the side-by-sticks. I welded up the assembly and discovered that bushings on the fuselage that I welded up about 4 years ago weren't parallel to each other so out they came and needed to be replaced. This is an example of the type of build this project is. Unlike the quick build projects available to the EAB builders; there is no step-by-step builders manual. I have about 20 pages of prints from Wag Aero along with the many drawings I have printed from Christian's site. That plus lots of digging here at Supercub.org had made this possible. So, I drilled out the bushings, fabricated new ones, jigged everything in place and did some tack welding. I than realized that I needed to remove a gear leg, put the fuselage on it's side, and weld it from the bottom. This worked out pretty easy. A couple pic's ....

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    With the welding complete, I fitted up the torque tube assembly. Everything fit as it should. I still need to do some honing and polishing to get a lighter feel to the stick but there isn't any binding at all.

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    Next step will be attaching the left wing for the first time to begin the process of running the cables. I need to make a few pulley supports first and than I'll be ready for the wing. By turning my fuselage toward the garage door I can attach one wing at a time in my garage/shop.

    That's where I'm at. I'll try to keep up with this post with my progress and with the many questions still ahead.

    Thanks for all the help along the way; I could not have done this with out all the assistance from the great guys here at Supercub.org. I'll keep you posted with progress reports and with many, many more questions.

    Marty
    Last edited by Marty57; 03-27-2015 at 09:20 PM.
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  2. #2

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    Marty, I have a completed WagAero 2+2/PA -18 ON Amphib floats. It is a sweet airplane. Keep plugging along. It took me 9 years.
    Great to see your progress. Jeff

  3. #3
    Tim's Avatar
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    Marty, being retired, no excuse for not working 12 hours a day, I want to see you and it at NH this year

  4. #4
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Don't I wish that were true Tim! I wonder sometimes how I had time for my Teaching job before retirement . I'm plugging along. ��
    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  5. #5
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Planning ahead on the next couple of steps down the line is a big part of this project. I'm waiting on some pulleys so thinking ahead to the engine mount. I have a PA 12 engine mount that needs some work. I need to add the beef up to the lower tubes and repair one upper tube. What I'd like to see is how my mount meets the specs of the drawings. Does any one out there have a copy of the PA12 engine mount drawings? It sure would help to get a look at the drawings to see if my mount is close and usable before I re-work it.

    Thanks,
    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  6. #6
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Marty, how about just build up a new mount the same way I did mine? It really was not a big deal. Also you can put 0-degree thrust in it. Just a thought. Love the progress!

  7. #7
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Christian,
    That's really the way I would like to go rather than repairing the one I have. Unfortunately, I don't have a run-out O290 or O320 case that I can use to jig it up the way you built yours. My engine is the stock rubber lord mount (non-dynafocial) type so I would need a case to match. I believe a narrow deck O320 has the same bolt pattern as my O290D2. If I could find one that would not cost a bunch to ship I would much rather build new. Do you know of any donor cases out there that are other wise scrap?

    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  8. #8
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    Nevermind.
    Last edited by Cub junkie; 04-02-2015 at 02:53 PM.

  9. #9

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    Marty, this is the drawing that came with the paper work for the PA-12 O290D2 engine STC.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  10. #10
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty57 View Post
    Christian,
    ... Do you know of any donor cases out there that are other wise scrap?

    Marty
    They are out there. Check with your local EAA chapter and bum around the local airfields. You'll find one. Do you intend to tear down one of your two engines? Why not use that case? You won't damage it at all using as a jig.

  11. #11
    Steve's Aircraft (Brian)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty57 View Post
    Christian,
    That's really the way I would like to go rather than repairing the one I have. Unfortunately, I don't have a run-out O290 or O320 case that I can use to jig it up the way you built yours. My engine is the stock rubber lord mount (non-dynafocial) type so I would need a case to match. I believe a narrow deck O320 has the same bolt pattern as my O290D2. If I could find one that would not cost a bunch to ship I would much rather build new. Do you know of any donor cases out there that are other wise scrap?

    Marty
    Marty,

    If you are anywhere near S. Oregon you can swing by and borrow one of mine.... I do not have any that are scrap so I would need to have it back..

    Brian.

  12. #12
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Brian,
    I'm in So. Cal so I would need to ship but thanks. I'll see if there are any around here first.

    Christian,
    I wont be tearing down either of these engines but will check around the EAA chapters first to see whats lurking around out there; good idea.

    Frogdad,
    Thanks for the drawing, that's what I was looking for. I can check my engine mount and maybe make a jig from that and the drawing if I can't find a case near here.

    Thanks guys,
    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  13. #13
    Marty57's Avatar
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    It's been a while since I updated my progress. Big step today; I hung one of the wings for the first time .... and it fit!
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    Time to get moving now. With the wing hung I can now locate the control cables and pulleys to finish up the fuselage and get it ready to paint. In the past few months I finished up the control stick assembly and control linkage for the elevators. I also purchased everything I need tor the electric trim from Jay at Javron. I also purchased his aluminum pulleys and lots of tabs and such to finish out the fuselage. I decided not to build up my own sealed struts and bought a set from Univair. My reasoning was simply time. The time to build a set was just too high at this stage of the game. If I'm going to finish this up any time soon I need to decide what's the best use of my time. Building the struts was going to take me too much time and I needed to move forward. The new struts are in and they are very nicely made; glad I made the decision. Lets see, what else? Tail feathers are primed and the rudder is covered. Purchased B&C starter and alternator, and I have some instruments on the way. I have also decided to go with two Pmags so I'm getting ready to purchase those also. I still need to weld up an engine mount. To do that, I need to find a run out, trashed O235, O290, or O320 conical mount case that I can use to set up and jig the engine mount with the angles needed. Still looking for a case ...... any one have one out there?

    So here's another pictures of the wing in place along with pictures of the control stick assembly that I recently finished. Lots more to come on a more regular basis as I move along through the many, many steps remaining. I'll have lots of questions as I move forward.

    Marty57

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    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  14. #14
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Marty, Use one of the engines which you already have. It doesn't need to be just a case. Just protect it.
    N1PA

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    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    What about buying a used serviceable PA12 engine mount? If it doesn't fit your firewall spool's perfect it would be faster to modify than build from scratch.

  16. #16
    Marty57's Avatar
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    I do have a PA12 engine mount that needs a tube repaired; I can start from there. Using an empty case would allow me to adjust angles better as I could run a string dead center through the case. It's not a big deal; if I can't find a case I'll use one of my engines to get everything as close as I can. I have time, lots to do. That's why I'm kind of looking for the case while working on other steps. Today I'm making a few adjustment and fitting the new struts to check on alignment and such. I hope to get on with the pulleys tomorrow.
    Marty57
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  17. #17
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    Marty

    I had the control stick aluminum blocks machined to accept roller bearing rollers to make it a little smoother.

    Jim

  18. #18
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Jim,
    Nice idea. My sticks came out pretty smooth. How did the bearings fit into the block; were they split?
    Marty
    Last edited by Marty57; 08-20-2015 at 11:22 PM.
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  19. #19
    jimboflying's Avatar
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    The blocks were machined to accept the individual rollers.
    Jim

  20. #20
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Jim,
    Got the picture now, that makes sense. That's something I could always change down the line if too much friction crops up. Right now, with no rigging, the sticks are pretty smooth but time will tell.
    Thanks,
    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  21. #21
    Lowrider
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    Marty,

    When I built mine I used a laser off a .22 pistol instead of the string routine. I made a cardboard mount in the crank hole and two pieces of fine orange fly line to make an "X" on the rear of the case. I shot the laser across the fishing line and moved the case around until it his the "0" point in the rear of the fuselage. It was very easy to do and I think was more accurate than the string. Just a thought for you.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  22. #22
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Lowrider,
    Same idea here, Christian did the same thing on his build using strings. That's why I need a case to really set this up correctly. I have an engine mount that needs one top tube replaced but no good way to check and jig without open case. You happen to have a conical mount o235-0320 case around?
    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  23. #23
    Lowrider
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    My case is dynafocal and I used the one I'm rebuilding. You might try some of the used parts guys. They seem to get a lot of crash planes that will have unserviceable engines. That's where I got my mount ring. I actually saw an old beat up case for something at our dump aluminum recycle pile awhile back so they are around.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
    Likes pfm liked this post

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    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    You might try calling Divco and see if they have a reject/red tagged case around. I know when I had a case red tagged the guy told me it was so bad it wasn't worth the fifty bucks to ship it back. I had it shipped back anyway and I've used that case set to build about five engine mounts since.

  25. #25
    Marty57's Avatar
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    I'll try Divco. I tried Lycon up in Visalia but they never got back to me after I talked to them on the phone. I may try them again when I'm up that way. Will see what Divco says, thanks for the idea to call them.

    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com
    Thanks Beaverpilot thanked for this post

  26. #26
    Marty57's Avatar
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    The next step after hanging the wing involved running the aileron cables and the pulleys. I used a 1/8" cord to simulate the cable and used CAD to draw up the necessary mounts; some of the pulleys will attach with bushings. The plans are very lacking in the area of cable placement. The drawing vaguely shows one pulley at the wing root but that would have brought the cable across the corner of the door opening. I decided to follow the set up that Tim has on his 2+2; same set up as the 2+2 prototype. I did add one pulley mid way down the side of the fuselage. The plans call for this cable direction change to be done with a fairlead but I felt it was way past the recommended angle change and used a small pulley instead. To hold the pulleys in place during fabrication I welded a welding rod to the fitting or bushing and than use either hose clamps or C-clamps for placement. This way I can have all the pulleys secure as I move down the line building the system up to the control sticks. I can remove the pulley without disturbing the location for welding. I will remove the wing before I weld the top fitting in place and than make final adjustments to the other pulleys as I weld in place. I next have to do the same for the process for the flaps. I have decided on a traditional flay handle between the seats for simplicity. I will have to repeat these tasks for the second wing but that will be simply mirroring the first.

    Marty

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    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  27. #27
    Tim's Avatar
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    Marty, let us know how that pulley works out instead of a fairlead. I have a fairlead there that has worked for well over 2k hours but I to think it's to much angle change. I think a pulley is the way to go. I'll get a picture of what I have tomorrow.

    Tim

  28. #28
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty57 View Post
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    Marty, Make sure that pulley remains very free to rotate. A small pulley with a small angle change such as this has a tendency to stop rotating so that the cable rubs a groove in it. It doesn't take much for a pulley which does not have a high load against it to stop rotating. This also wears a flat area on the cable causing broken strands.
    N1PA

  29. #29
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Tim,
    I have a picture of your cables inside the cockpit that I took at NH; very helpful. I tried to do just one pulley up top but it wasn't going to work well. The plans show one pulley but knowing your history I felt two were the way to go. Skywagon, I'll keep an eye on the small pulley; I think it will work well. The angle is about 20-30 degrees, more than the same pulley on the top of the spar to the aileron. I used the same pulley for the fuselage. It moves nicely with just the cord so I'm pretty happy with it. I know Tim's set up works but I'm trying to get as light a feel to the stick as possible. Time will tell. Next up is the flap cables. I have some good pictures of the Javron Cub flap set up and will be be doing it the same other than the flap handle between the seats.

    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com
    Thanks Beaverpilot thanked for this post

  30. #30
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    20 - 30 degrees is more than it appears in the picture. It should be all right.
    N1PA

  31. #31
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Next issue ...... how to run my flap pulleys and cables. I'm using a center mounted flap handle; pretty standard set up. I'm bringing the two sides together to a triangular plate, than running one cable down a center pulley at the top of the cathedral. I have a couple pictures posted of the intended cable run. The question is how to mount the center pulley at the top of the cathedral. I'm open to ideas. The distance across is about where I have the bolt is about 4-1/2". Any ideas for a mounting set up for the pulley??

    Marty

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    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  32. #32
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Just weld a piece of heavy walled tubing to one of the cathedral members. Position it low enough so that there is no possibility of the cable rubbing on the crotch of the tubing cluster at any point in it's travel. Tack on a piece of heavy welding rod for a cable guard (prevents the cable from jumping off the pulley).
    N1PA

  33. #33
    Larry G's Avatar
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ID:	21726This is like what Sky is talking about. I would like to now how to make the pictures larger.

  34. #34
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Larry & Sky,
    Thanks for the picture; I like the corner bracket. I have used the tubing mount as you mentioned Sky; just wondering how far from the tube I can get away with; max length of a bushing to support the load of the pulley and cable. I'm need to decide the routing; straight down the middle or along the sides than come back to the middle to the flap handle. Along the sides would need 10 pulleys so more weight but it leaves the upper and lower areas unobstructed. Going down the middle uses just 5 or 6 pulleys but I would have a cable running down the middle behind the rear bulkhead back from the rear seat. That might be ok as the back seat area on the 2+2 is pretty big so not sure if extended baggage is that necessary. I don't have the dogleg since the area back there is so big. The 2+2 also has the elevator cables connected to a bellcrank that is above the lower tubes so no flat floor unless it's all raised up anyway. I'm trying to keep things as light as possible with the smaller O290D2 that I'm using so not sure if I'm going to put in a floor in the rear behind the seating area or not. More head scratching necessary.

    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  35. #35
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Marty,
    Make the bushing as long as you need. Then if you think that it could twist due to the leverage of the applied load, you can place a long narrow finger patch/reinforcement along the tube, over the bushing and along the tube. This will prevent the bushing from tearing out of the tubing locally. If you plan from the beginning to use the finger patch you can get away with a thinner walled bushing. This will need to be drilled/reamed to clear out the internal weld bead.
    N1PA

  36. #36
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Skywagon,
    I didn't think about using a finger strap; great idea for the longer pulley support bushings. I just need to decide on the routing; center or down the sides before moving forward. Leaning toward center about now.
    Thanks for the tip!
    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  37. #37
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Lots of good progress to report. After a lot of "one step forward and two steps back", I finished building the brake pedals and set up the master cylinders. I first built the brake pedals as the plans show but didn't like the flat plate for the rudder pedal portion of the pedal. After seeing Cub junkie's post of the pedals he made and getting drawings from him (thanks again Cub junkie) I made a set to match Piper's PA20 pedals. That was close but needed some adjustments to match the 2+2 geometry. After lots of time I got everything working and in place correctly. After finishing up the rudder pedals I ran the cables from the control stick back to the horizontal stabilizer. I welded in the tubes for the fairleads; pretty easy. Next, the seats. I needed to cut down the seats so I could weld in the tabs for the seat tracks. I've finished the seat frames and am working on the tabs for the tracks. I decided to run the tracks flat past the rear angle change in the fuselage. I'm going to use an oak shim bolted between the floor and the track. I made a couple of test shims today from pine to see how it would work and am happy with the results. Pictures below of the progress.

    First, the finished rudder with the brake pedals.


    Next, cables for the stab.


    Last is the seat with the shim. The shim allows me to slide the seat back to give easy access to the front seat.


    More to come as I install the tracks and seat belt tabs. Getting close to painting the fuselage. I only need to weld in the brackets for the electric trim and than the fuselage should be finished.

    Marty57
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    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  38. #38
    Lowrider
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    Nice Marty! I like the foam set up...any thoughts of using high density and gel foam?
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  39. #39
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Jan 2005
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    Nipomo, Ca
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    Lowrider,
    The foam on the seat is from the original Piper seat upholstery . I just cut it on my band saw so I would have something to sit on as I tried out the tracks. I will use good foam for the finished seats. I plan on having the back rest removable by sliding it up and off the seat; would make a nice camping pillow if needed.
    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  40. #40
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    Great progress Marty. All the little details take a lot of work. Are you going to weld the end caps on the rudder pedals? They make a difference.

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