ABW how is that snow? Hope to warn someone about this. Save the next guy.

[nanook]

You have to land with a "lot of power" in snow with bushwheels. Most people revert back to the "oh s$$t" and pull the power. Hard to train yourself to do the opposite. Nose heavy 180hp especially so... Expensive lesson, thanks for posting....

[cubdriver2]

You have to land with a "lot of power" in snow with bushwheels. Most people revert back to the "oh s$$t" and pull the power. Hard to train yourself to do the opposite. Nose heavy 180hp especially so... Expensive lesson, thanks for posting....

Even on skis you need to land with lots of air holding the tail down till you know what the ski condition are.

Glenn

[spinner2]

I must have been sleeping during physics class in school. Would someone please educate me about "frontal area" in snow? I was under the impression that a larger frontal area takes more energy to push a plane and it pushed more snow in front of it.
Lets say you have 6" of snow and two planes. One has 31" tires and the other has 8.00 tires. On landing with no brakes, which one will land shorter? I'm guessing it's the plane with the 31s because of the frontal area. If you land to short, the tail comes up and you get a "hat". With the smaller tires, less frontal area, longer landing and you don't get the hat. In this example I'm assuming soft snow.

I wonder if it works that way? A larger rolling radius would tend to climb over the snow better and the extra width maybe float on top better?

Snow conditions probably make more difference.

[OLDCROWE]

I wonder if it works that way? A larger rolling radius would tend to climb over the snow better and the extra width maybe float on top better?

Snow conditions probably make more difference.

Until you get on the wrong side of the drag curve!

[stewartb]

I remember the day Crash finished and flew his newly upgraded 180hp Cub and landed in 5-6" of gloppy mashed potato snow on the creek in front of my cabin. I thought he was nuts. 31" Bushwheels were king back then and he did fine. I wouldn't have fared so well.

[CuBob]

Congrat's and it looks great

[SchulerJL]

Great thread on Snow and Bushwheels. Very glad all worked out. Couple years ago I made a video of landing in snow with 31" Bushwheels, at about the 3:40 mark I land in some crusty snow, landing seemed fine, but trying to get out of the crust was tough. Right then and there I decided to buy skis.

https://youtu.be/6Kfwwt94gKY

[skywagon8a]

What are all of the towers for at 5:03? That seems like an unusually high number of towers at the end of a runway out in the middle of nowhere.

[OLDCROWE]

Looks like an FAA remote station.

[SchulerJL]

What are all of the towers for at 5:03? That seems like an unusually high number of towers at the end of a runway out in the middle of nowhere.

As I understand, it was part of an FAA remote station. It was Bradford airport and was an important field during WWII. It was sold to a local farmer who kept it as an airfield. Identifier is 3IS8, Rinkenberger on the Chicago Sectional.

[mvivion]

Another example: https://www.adn.com/outdoors-adventu...nal-park-snow/

MTV

[stewartb]

Bummer for Lee! Even good pilots can make mistakes.

[eskflyer]

Great reporting. " As he pulled the brakes he nosed over" like brakes had anything to do with landing on wheels in deep snow .Pulling brakes? . Gotta love the media

[cubdriver2]

Great reporting. " As he pulled the brakes he nosed over" like brakes had anything to do with landing on wheels in deep snow .Pulling brakes? . Gotta love the media

Probably said " pulling throttle "

Glenn

[Skywalker]

I love how the media will report on a badly crippled aircraft landing in a 30kt crosswind without severe injuries: "They landed safely!!" No, it was an very unsafe landing that ended without incident.
Anyway, I learned two important things from this post, I would not have considered the height of the axle, a real negative. Now it seems obvious, the drag is even further from the CG, the longer arm means more nose down. I used to put a long prop and 3"gear at the top of my list, but I'm not so sure now.

[kestrel]

I used to put a long prop and 3"gear at the top of my list, but I'm not so sure now.

* longer prop
* 3" gear extension
* >>> skis! <<<

[40m]

I was thinking "applied brakes" either way it sucks. Skywalker what did we get for snow?

[Skywalker]

Nuttin much. Might be an inch.

[BC12D-4-85]

Snow and tires is a tough call. Did it a couple of times with my -18A and 25" Goodyears after a flight to town and late spring snow before return to the lake surface. Guess I drug out a long strip of tire tracks a few times at speed then settled into them with aft trim. Been awhile but that's what I recall. Couldn't taxi much but only a foot of snow and wet. Got snow sled later to pack me a strip. Plane was covered with mixed precip one time and I didn't want to fly back 180* through even more. Shoulda' turned around and tried another day, but...

The fellow had more snow to deal with but packing it first might help if wx forced a guy down sometime.

GAP

[n40ff]

Not really relative to SC's and big tires but I came real close one time. Stock C120 on 6.00X6's. End of month with annual due wanted to move it to IA's airport. Our grass strip had 6" of fresh snow. I borrowed a friends 4X4 and ran it up/down the runway and taxiway for a couple hours and had it mostly packed down. Taxi out with taxi down to end of runway was ok. Takeoff run was ok UNTIL......and you guys can imagine what happened. In an instant I was up on it's nose and I was sure it was going over, probably close to 40 mph almost ready to lift off. At least I didn't aw-S... and pull the power. I guess I yanked back and as fast as it happened, the tail went down and next thing we were flying. Was a good lesson for a very young and inexperienced pilot anyway.....

Jack

[DENNY]

Bump!! It is getting to be that time of year again. For all the new guys/gals that heard Bushwheels are fine in snow. Doug was good enough to show you what a few inches can do. DENNY

[cubdriver2]

Bump!! It is getting to be that time of year again. For all the new guys/gals that heard Bushwheels are fine in snow. Doug was good enough to show you what a few inches can do. DENNY

I'm hoping he post pictures of his new skis ;- )

Glenn

[TurboBeaver]

Glen,
I heard he has reached the Summit!

[courierguy]

Back on the Datum retracts myself, and I have to remind myself: MAKE SURE THE WHEELS ARE DOWN IF LANDING ASPHALT, OR SKIS IF LANDING SNOW, DUMMY."

One time I landed a remote canyon, and was surprised by how sticky the snow was. Before I came to a full stop, I thought "screw this place" and I made my turnaround to get out of there. But I ran out of canyon before reaching lift off speed. When I realized I was wheels down, it was equal parts chagrin and relief. Skis down, I was quickly back on my way. I have yet to land on asphalt on the skis, frozen grass yes, on purpose. I suppose it's a plus for the Datum's design that let me get away with this. There was no tendency at all of nosing over, it just felt real draggy, so controllable/normal otherwise, that it's a possible technique I could use for making a short as possible snow landing.

[The Kid]

I think the higher your axle is the less chance is you'd flip over because you are effectively shifting the cg rearward the taller you sit. 35s would be better!

[DENNY]

Not so simple, 35s might have more drag depending on the snow type and how deep it is. Tall gear/tires is not always the answer even with a big headwind.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY13LmDshso
DENNY

[WWhunter]

How ironic that this thread was revived yesterday. We've had a bit of snow here in north central MN and was busy deer hunting the last couple of weeks and have really wanted to go flying. I was thinking of flying yesterday and since the snow has been settling a bit I was thinking of 'trying' to go up. After reading this thread again, I mad the smart decision of postponing any attempts until the snow either melts further, or I get around to putting my skis on.

[The Kid]

That U tube video on the tall gear cub noseing over was a case of tail too high when he landed and then he must have hit the brakes. Tall gear I don't think had anything to do with it. IF he'd been in a 3 point when he landed and hit the brakes; he probably wouldn't have gone over as his cg would have been way back. You can't land in a flat attitude and hit the brakes like he must have done. Landing is hard to do perfectly, especially every time, I have found out.

[DENNY]

I did the bump because it usually starts about now that we see planes going over testing that Bushwheel thing. Doug was good enough to show how easy it is to go over so figured We could ride it another season. Kid, I think the big tires and tall gear do have a greater effect on the possibility of getting up on the nose. It creates a very long lever arm, once that tail starts coming up the elevator just does not have enough force to counteract the drag on the gear even with nose up trim like this pilot had. Talking with some fellow members of the bent prop group a few noted that the salvage point for tipping on the 35s seems too be a bit further back. Could just be the sight picture or whatever but they say once it starts to go it gos fast. I would agree that to avoid going over the lower the tail /aft CG the better.
DENNY

[flynlow]

I launched in a C172 in 6” powder years ago. A couple hours later on my return everything looked the same but there was slush under the surface.

No damage but it felt like a carrier landing after snagging the hook.



Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

[The Kid]

Think of a teeter totter. The further the one kid sits back the harder it is for the other kid to totter. When you add axle height you are shifting the CG back or moving the kid back. Back is better in a cub for keeping the tail down. The wheels are the fulcrum. Tire width probably does play a role in the wrong kind of snow and the bigger the tire the more width it has. Keep the power on big time to help keep the tail down. When I get the coinola I'm gunna try the 35s.

[skywagon8a]

Think of a teeter totter. The further the one kid sits back the harder it is for the other kid to totter. When you add axle height you are shifting the CG back or moving the kid back. Back is better in a cub for keeping the tail down. The wheels are the fulcrum. Tire width probably does play a role in the wrong kind of snow and the bigger the tire the more width it has. Keep the power on big time to help keep the tail down. When I get the coinola I'm gunna try the 35s.

And don't use as much brake force, as the longer gear will be more easily be able to nose it over due to the extra leverage.

[ak49flyer]

‘Tis the season. 172 trike on 29’s tried the the ski strip/gravel runway here yesterday and got the prop and wingtip. Seems we get at least one about this time every year…

[tedwaltman1]

Sigh, there's probably a lot more of that which doesn't make the news. Thanks for the heads up as a reminder to folks to be extra cautious. "But it worked on YouTube!"...sorry, I couldn't help but throw that in.

[stewartb]

Did the nose gear collapse? I had a 172 for a few years and can’t imagine one going over the top.

[BC12D-4-85]

Nose wheel turned sideways unexpectedly?

Gary

[ak49flyer]

Broke through crust and got pulled to the side. Tipped up on one tip and prop then came down. Nose gear structure looks ok. 172XP

[Dog]

[QUOTE=The Kid;836561]I think the higher your axle is the less chance is you'd flip over because you are effectively shifting the cg rearward the taller you sit. 35s would be better![/QUOT

One could think so but -- that is exactly the opposite to how it works the loner the arm the easier it is to flip if you have a stock gear and go to extended you will notice how much easier it is to lift the tail while braking. There is a great video on you tube of a guy with what looks like 12 inch extended gear at Hood strip flipping over as he applied brake. It's like the aircraft is the end of the Whip.
To push the large tire through the snow can sometimes be more drag than a small one, like pushing a bigger snow shovel I found that out the hard way. The application of full power saved me from flipping over while just dragging the strip that had grass sticking through the snow - it sucked me in and it stoped in about 50 some feet underI full power and full aft stick in a Maule M7, there I was and could not get enough speed for take of or control the plane to go straight in almost 18" of wet snow.
I did let most of the air out so the 31s so they were halve flat this makes a big flat spot on the bottom of the Tire and after taxiing back and forth a couple times it waddled itself to take of speed on top of the snow instead of digging in (an old timer told me that trick years ago) still works.

[frequent_flyer]

I would suggest that, for an aircraft being rapidly decelerated by deep snow, the height of the CG above the point of rotation may be of at least as much interest as the position of the CG behind the point of rotation.

The influence of gear position on nose over tendency will vary with pitch attitude. Taller gear may be an advantage when the tail is low but that advantage may go away as pitch attitude reduces.

[KevinJ]

I always felt that the longer the gear, the longer the tell before going over center after starting from a tail low attitude. A cub on standard gear and small tires will go over center quick when on the brakes. A long gear cub on bushwheels takes a long time before getting to that over center attitude. More time for your brain to compute what needs to be done.