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ABW how is that snow? Hope to warn someone about this. Save the next guy.

I was looking at the pics on the big screen, telling me I could have done that any time soon. It sure looks pretty deep wet snow from the snowmobile tracks in the background on the second pic. I hope you will get here back in the air soon.


Anyway, thanks again for sharing. It is something that could or will hapen to every one of us.
 
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I found the video complete with narrative. I can't seem to post it here because it keeps saying file-error. Can I email to someone on this site with more computer savvy than me to post it. Send me a PM. Thanks.
 
Colorguns, Thanks for posting this valuable information. Hopefully, a highly experienced pilot is one who has learned by observing and remembering the other pilots mistakes. The other pilot's experiences are often the best teacher. Observe and learn.
 
You can land in a considerable amount of snow with 31's - sometimes. But it may bite you real quick too. I know of one highly experienced pilot this year that had the exact same thing happen when landing to pick up hunters with just an early September snow. You're not the first or last one to get bit by this Doug, thanks for being man enough to share your experience so that others might think twice before touching down.

Another 'most of the time OK' scenario that is easy to get complacent with is taking a slight tailwind on landing or takeoff. I find myself doing it for convenience at times, but it too can bite if you get even a light gust at just the wrong time. Food for thought.
 
Dont know if this might help folks to answer this question or not, but for guys that dont have alot of experence messing around in snowy conditions . Here is an example of how quickly conditions can change............. back when I was doing a fair amount of Sheep Hunting a favorite technique was to find some larger rams hanging by themselves, they often hang early in season pretty high 4/6000 ft. And often near glacers. So naturally to save climbing we would start scheming where you could land on the Glacier to save hiking all day to get up to
Them. So we would find a spot that appeared to look good, and I liked to throw something out (had a high vis orange boat cushion that worked perfect) then get up above the target area and make a nice long well trimed out approach DOWNHILL to the cushion, and touch down still flying and see what it felt like, lots of times it feels ok until you pushed ahead on the stick and felt resistance and snow would
Start spraying off the side of my Airstreaks, that is mealy like rock salt stuff , ng so you simply pull up and forgot about it right then, ditto on touching the snow and it feeling like its way to soft and you imeadiatly see dry snow spraying up onto the windshield, off the front of the skis, its too DEEP, or
God forbid you throw out the cushion and it disapears and then you cant see it! Dont try it......
Anyway if it all felt right we would then turn around and land back UPHILL on those tracks you just made, and set up a camp, we would usually snow shoe down an area so you could get turned easier.
Of course we tryed to get the rams as early in the morning as you could so we could get the hel! out of there before the top softened up. However lots of times it didnt work out as planed, and the sun would soften the snow up to the point that
To even taxi was impossible, then as the day went on it could become too much for wheelskis....... then by 1/2 pm on warm days it will actually turn into something similar to corn , up to you knees in places,to the point even superwide straight skis would be out of bussiness. So we would have to wait till it cooled down and all firmed back up. We would often have to spend an extra nite on the glacier break camp before daylight, and be takeing off when I could just see.
So there really is no good answer to how much snow you can land in as it isnt as simple as how much it can change from
Day to day, it is really more like how much it can change from hour to hour, so literally the same place
That was fine to land on yesterday or even early this morning may flip you this afternoon! We did most of our exploring early in The morning, with good lighting, low temps, no wind etc. And to be honest lots of guys would check out spots with skis first and then screw around with big tires AFTER they had been up there with skis. Bottom line on alot of this bush pilotie
Stuff that is fine for Paul Clause or Doug Geeting, is actually way over what most of us are capable of doing. So unless Your truely willing ,to "big boy up" and pay the price of admission (and it can be brutal) dont mix wheels with snow unlessYou have done your homework............ pulling the power back thinking your Don Sheldon can easily leave you in a mess,Your going to regret! Fly as safe as you can and you can still get into plenty of trouble.........30" tires are 50 percent better than 8:50s in snow,but for some reason alot of guys think nowadays , that they are 500 percent better, and that is NOT true. I have heard the numbers 4"/8" kicked around camp for 8:50s and 30" tires and those are probably good numbers IF you dont hit a soft spot, but what IF you do? I have taken off in a foot of snow with 31" tires
And had to roll a wheel out like you would a float, and still went 3/400 ft on one tire to get up enough
Airspeed to finally get off. But i sure as hel! Didnt want to land there. Hope this may help someone that is
Anxious to go try his new bushwheels in 2ft of wet snow!! You are simply going to wreck your airplane
That why when it gets 6/8" deep , get the boards on! Good Luck!
 
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Well here we are all back together after the wreck! Got it completed in as I understand record time. Back flying the first of August and have since put on 72 hours.
Just a reminder that deep snow and wheels can/will get you into trouble, hopefully this post might make some one think about where they are going into and STOP before they do what I did.

Happy flying!!
Merry Christmas
colorguns/Doug
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I must have been sleeping during physics class in school. Would someone please educate me about "frontal area" in snow? I was under the impression that a larger frontal area takes more energy to push a plane and it pushed more snow in front of it.
Lets say you have 6" of snow and two planes. One has 31" tires and the other has 8.00 tires. On landing with no brakes, which one will land shorter? I'm guessing it's the plane with the 31s because of the frontal area. If you land to short, the tail comes up and you get a "hat". With the smaller tires, less frontal area, longer landing and you don't get the hat. In this example I'm assuming soft snow.
 
I promised myself in March I would re-read this post before this winter. These pictures of your plane reminded me to do so.
I thank you again!
Merry Christmas.

Glenn
 
Happy to see you got it back together.I remember being asked about landing on the snow with bushwheels.We had a good time that day and hope to do it again this year.If we don't get some snow then we will have to do a winter cookout on wheels.

Bill
 
You have to land with a "lot of power" in snow with bushwheels. Most people revert back to the "oh s$$t" and pull the power. Hard to train yourself to do the opposite. Nose heavy 180hp especially so... Expensive lesson, thanks for posting....
 
You have to land with a "lot of power" in snow with bushwheels. Most people revert back to the "oh s$$t" and pull the power. Hard to train yourself to do the opposite. Nose heavy 180hp especially so... Expensive lesson, thanks for posting....

Even on skis you need to land with lots of air holding the tail down till you know what the ski condition are.

Glenn
 
I must have been sleeping during physics class in school. Would someone please educate me about "frontal area" in snow? I was under the impression that a larger frontal area takes more energy to push a plane and it pushed more snow in front of it.
Lets say you have 6" of snow and two planes. One has 31" tires and the other has 8.00 tires. On landing with no brakes, which one will land shorter? I'm guessing it's the plane with the 31s because of the frontal area. If you land to short, the tail comes up and you get a "hat". With the smaller tires, less frontal area, longer landing and you don't get the hat. In this example I'm assuming soft snow.

I wonder if it works that way? A larger rolling radius would tend to climb over the snow better and the extra width maybe float on top better?

Snow conditions probably make more difference.
 
I wonder if it works that way? A larger rolling radius would tend to climb over the snow better and the extra width maybe float on top better?

Snow conditions probably make more difference.
Until you get on the wrong side of the drag curve!
 
I remember the day Crash finished and flew his newly upgraded 180hp Cub and landed in 5-6" of gloppy mashed potato snow on the creek in front of my cabin. I thought he was nuts. 31" Bushwheels were king back then and he did fine. I wouldn't have fared so well.
 
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Great thread on Snow and Bushwheels. Very glad all worked out. Couple years ago I made a video of landing in snow with 31" Bushwheels, at about the 3:40 mark I land in some crusty snow, landing seemed fine, but trying to get out of the crust was tough. Right then and there I decided to buy skis.

 
What are all of the towers for at 5:03? That seems like an unusually high number of towers at the end of a runway out in the middle of nowhere.
 
What are all of the towers for at 5:03? That seems like an unusually high number of towers at the end of a runway out in the middle of nowhere.

As I understand, it was part of an FAA remote station. It was Bradford airport and was an important field during WWII. It was sold to a local farmer who kept it as an airfield. Identifier is 3IS8, Rinkenberger on the Chicago Sectional.
 
Great reporting. " As he pulled the brakes he nosed over" like brakes had anything to do with landing on wheels in deep snow .Pulling brakes? . Gotta love the media
 
I love how the media will report on a badly crippled aircraft landing in a 30kt crosswind without severe injuries: "They landed safely!!" No, it was an very unsafe landing that ended without incident.
Anyway, I learned two important things from this post, I would not have considered the height of the axle, a real negative. Now it seems obvious, the drag is even further from the CG, the longer arm means more nose down. I used to put a long prop and 3"gear at the top of my list, but I'm not so sure now.
 
I was thinking "applied brakes" either way it sucks. Skywalker what did we get for snow?
 
Snow and tires is a tough call. Did it a couple of times with my -18A and 25" Goodyears after a flight to town and late spring snow before return to the lake surface. Guess I drug out a long strip of tire tracks a few times at speed then settled into them with aft trim. Been awhile but that's what I recall. Couldn't taxi much but only a foot of snow and wet. Got snow sled later to pack me a strip. Plane was covered with mixed precip one time and I didn't want to fly back 180* through even more. Shoulda' turned around and tried another day, but...

The fellow had more snow to deal with but packing it first might help if wx forced a guy down sometime.

GAP
 
Not really relative to SC's and big tires but I came real close one time. Stock C120 on 6.00X6's. End of month with annual due wanted to move it to IA's airport. Our grass strip had 6" of fresh snow. I borrowed a friends 4X4 and ran it up/down the runway and taxiway for a couple hours and had it mostly packed down. Taxi out with taxi down to end of runway was ok. Takeoff run was ok UNTIL......and you guys can imagine what happened. In an instant I was up on it's nose and I was sure it was going over, probably close to 40 mph almost ready to lift off. At least I didn't aw-S... and pull the power. I guess I yanked back and as fast as it happened, the tail went down and next thing we were flying. Was a good lesson for a very young and inexperienced pilot anyway.....

Jack
 
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