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Thread: ABW how is that snow? Hope to warn someone about this. Save the next guy.

  1. #1
    Colorguns's Avatar
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    Unhappy ABW how is that snow? Hope to warn someone about this. Save the next guy.

    Posting by the suggestion of another pilot that was at Crow on skies and heard some bitching that "I could make it here why go to 6B6".

    Well I have done it! OOOHHHH crap now what?
    I landed on a snowmobile trail that had exposed ground, all good and then I got off the edge with the wheels, about half way on the roll out. The snow was about 8" deep, you might think that is no problem for 31" ABW tires, NO it was not.

    As you can see the results were not good and now the rebuild is on. I have landed in much deeper powder and NON-Marble snow with no issues but the "marble" soft stuff from the warm day did me in, got off to the side and it just PULLED me in, (just like the slush on the road that pulls your car into the ditch) you say I can just add power and mussel out. It went so fast there was not time to do a thing, from the distance I hit the edge to stopped was 50 ft.

    So you out there that were bitching about Crow Island and the SKIES only by Bill, be warned that getting just a little bit off course can have really BAD results.


    Snow looks to be 4" but was 8" and STICKY.
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  2. #2
    irishfield's Avatar
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    I guess the only good out of that... your free hat will be on it's way shortly! Other than that it sucks all around.

    Could never figure out the idea of landing in the snow on tires no matter how big they are... unless you've gone out and walked it yourself before hand, but again I guess when you live where I do there's a definite wheel to ski transition time... November!

  3. #3
    Wag2+2's Avatar
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    Big bummer How do you plan on right siding it and getting it out?

  4. #4
    SC3CM's Avatar
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    It sucks Doug but you're ok and can order those skis now for next season.

  5. #5
    Colorguns's Avatar
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    Recovery was easy. tied a rope to the tail wheel and pulled it to the engine with an Argo on tracks, had a roped tied to the frame handle at tail and wrapped that to a post in the ground. Pulled it till past vertical and it came over on the wheels. Then had to pull hard on the Argo rope to get it over to set on the tail. Once on its wheels towed it out to the road and into a parking lot.

  6. #6
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Really sorry to see that Doug, what a beautiful airplane......... hope your ok, And nothing bruised but some pride........ doesnt look that extensive, lets hope its back in the air real soon!

  7. #7
    Colorguns's Avatar
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    Earl
    The adjuster comes Thursday and then to the shop. Engine tear down, prop, left wing, struts, rudder, boot cowl where the cowl pushed back a little (bottom edges), see no frame damage at this time. see what they find when down.
    Doug


    Be watching the transitions more carefully next time, now that I am educated! This might teach some one else and save them too. Only hope.

  8. #8
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Oh boy, well all that aint happening in 5 mins........... like you said these things happen so dam fast, there isnt much you can do sometimes......On the light side, this is what we used to call a "wheels up" landing, in the Guiding ferternaty. Flying big tires in rough tundra, this stuff happened allThe time......... in this case it was just getting off into bad snow.........I am sure your darn upset tonite, but main thing is you didnt get hurt, andThe plane can be repaired, things will look different tomorrow....... againSorry for the bad luck today.E

  9. #9
    Glidestone's Avatar
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    A friend snow plowed my strip so I could fly over to his strip on wheels, and do some repairs in his heated hangar. Having been on amphibs for a couple years, seems I'd forgotten what my right foot was for. Immediate left into the slushy windrow which held a unique drag penalty, to almost powering out of it, to pulling power, to almost going over, to chattering to a sideways stop. It happens fast. I was fortunate. There is a video somewhere, I'll see if my buddy still has it on his phone. Sorry for your incident, but glad you are OK. Thanks for posting.

  10. #10
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Doug that broke my heart when you texted me that photo this morning. I've been there twice and it just sucks. Takes a big man to post those pictures to maybe help someone else not do the same thing. Hope some of the contacts I gave you get you back flying soon.

    Glenn
    Likes Trimcable liked this post

  11. #11
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    That sucks. At least you are fine. Looks like only one wing. Hopefully you will be back flying again soon.

  12. #12
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    This is why you need two planes so you have a spare

    Glenn

  13. #13
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I feel for you. I did a 180 last Saturday on pavement when I romped on the brakes trying to make a turnoff. Luckily it was at a slow speed and only my pride was bruised. All part of membership in the taildragger fraternity.

    Eddie
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  14. #14
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorguns View Post
    Posting by the suggestion of another pilot that was at Crow on skies and heard some bitching that "I could make it here why go to 6B6".

    Well I have done it! OOOHHHH crap now what?
    I landed on a snowmobile trail that had exposed ground, all good and then I got off the edge with the wheels, about half way on the roll out. The snow was about 8" deep, you might think that is no problem for 31" ABW tires, NO it was not....

    why mention ABW, when it was a lapse of your judgement, with predictable/guaranteed and repeatable results???

  15. #15
    tedwaltman1's Avatar
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    Thank you for posting this Doug. As someone said, it takes a real man to share his lesson with the rest of us. Best wishes on a speedy repair!

  16. #16
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    why mention ABW, when it was a lapse of your judgement, with predictable/guaranteed and repeatable results???
    Yup, and you never stubbed your toe getting out of bed in the dark. Mike I agree with what your saying, not the ABW fault. BUT, we get away with murder on BWs. Drop it in from 3' no problem, BWs saved your ars. Land in 2' of hay, BWs save us from smaller tires being wrapped with hay and going over.... yada....yada....yada. Doug knows he screwed up and he's paying the price of admission. Fact is BWs make you think your invincible on any surface. He's not blaming BWs to get a new flip/flop hat. He's telling you that " warning " your balls might be bigger then your tires.

    Glenn
    Last edited by cubdriver2; 03-10-2015 at 10:35 PM.

  17. #17
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    why mention ABW, when it was a lapse of your judgement, with predictable/guaranteed and repeatable results???

    Maybe to help dispell the myth that these huge tires will allow you land anywhere. Cut the man some slack!

    Eddie
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  18. #18
    Colorguns's Avatar
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    NOT an ABW tire fault. Any big tire! Just hope to make people think about their landing areas. If I thought it was a bad idea then why would I land there? But I thought it was and I paid the price. Hope to get others to learn from it.
    Cant walk EVERY landing spot before you land. I've heard a lot of stories from other pilots maybe I can maybe save just one from this post. Just hoping!

    SUCKS


    Mike
    I wonder how many repair shops depend on pilots doing the stupid "obvious" mistakes?
    Last edited by Colorguns; 03-11-2015 at 05:43 AM.

  19. #19
    SC3CM's Avatar
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    Doug,
    Thanks for posting this. You're not new to the whole off airport thing and probably not the highest time/most experienced pilot to end up hanging in the shoulder harnesses because your landing ended up a bit shorter than you planned. If nothing else it's a good reminder to us all and might keep one of us from doing the same thing. Hope you get back in the air soon!

  20. #20

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    Doug sorry to see that.I learned my wheels and snow lesson several years ago.Did not wreck but the amount of drag I encountered in not real deep snow (sticky) set off warning bells and I decided right then that snow and wheels don't mix.
    I have seen guys get all cocky because they managed to take-off and land in nice fluffy powder.Wait til they leave in powder and come back several hours later after the sun has turned it to glue.
    Bill

  21. #21
    Joseph206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willyb View Post
    Doug sorry to see that.I learned my wheels and snow lesson several years ago.Did not wreck but the amount of drag I encountered in not real deep snow (sticky) set off warning bells and I decided right then that snow and wheels don't mix.
    I have seen guys get all cocky because they managed to take-off and land in nice fluffy powder.Wait til they leave in powder and come back several hours later after the sun has turned it to glue.
    Bill
    Hey Willy,
    Same thing happened to me earlier this year.
    tried 7" inches of semi soft new snow. wont do that again.
    Good thing for wind over the elevator.
    I was ready for it and it still tested us .
    Good Luck Colorguns , cant wait to fly with you this summer.

  22. #22
    SJ's Avatar
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    Good post, wish more of the folks who have "been there" would post and help others learn vicariously. I have sent out over 200 of the infamous "hats", so I know there are a few more posts that can be made.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  23. #23
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Ahh that sucks. Does your insurance cover a rental cub for a few months

  24. #24
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    It takes a man to post that. Thank you very much for posting, it really makes me think...

    I was about to put the plane on wheels, but now I'll wait till the snow is all gone.



    Went flying yesterday on ski. That ''marble'' snow really stick

  25. #25
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Good post, wish more of the folks who have "been there" would post and help others learn vicariously. I have sent out over 200 of the infamous "hats", so I know there are a few more posts that can be made.

    sj
    Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple threads on this site in which someone asked the question "How much snow can my plane handle with large tires?". Multiple answers from folks with experience repeatedly state that you simply cannot reliably predict how much snow you can land in on wheels. It simply and totally depends on the consistency of the snow.

    Just the other day, I visited a shop where a Carbon Cub resides now, after doing exactly this same thing....landing in snow on big tires.

    What does it take to get this message through? Will this thread penetrate a few thick skulls? Hopefully, but these discussions sure don't seem to have gotten the word out to date.

    I suppose it's only a matter of time before someone does one of these, then sues ABW for making tires that can land "anywhere".

    Big tires are not a panacea, and snow is a good place for skis.....

    MTV

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Good post, wish more of the folks who have "been there" would post and help others learn vicariously. I have sent out over 200 of the infamous "hats", so I know there are a few more posts that can be made.

    sj
    Haven't heard any complaints about the size of this "special" hat. Melon heads must have fewer incidents.

  27. #27

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    Thanks for posting. We really do get away with a lot and unless you have screwed up a few times you tend to have no fear. Same issue if trying to land federal hydraulic wheel skis on gravel bar if you drag a tip it can come up on it nose Most of that stuff should buff out pretty easy. Check the motor mount in a jig it is easy to bend and not see the defect. When the jugs are off now is a good time to put in new exhaust valve guides. Depending on the insurance company they will pay for rebuild/repair, you run a separate tab for mods/upgrades. Everybody wins.
    DENNY

  28. #28
    beaver18's Avatar
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    Sorry for your loss colorgun, and i agree 100% with you MTV the big tire are awsome but the center of the axle are much higher than normal so if what your rolling on get sticky its easyer to nose-over and if you need to have wheel in winter wheel-skis are for you

  29. #29
    39-J3's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting this. I do know how hard you are on yourself right now and commend you for sharing.

    Also while flying skis, Flat light, a week bungee and a stupid moment laps in judgment will also ruin your day really fast. But that is a story for another time.

    Glad you are ok and the plane will be repaired everything else is just a thing!!

    Larry

  30. #30

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    Oh Ouch Doug; sorry to see this. Don't beat yourself up too much 78H has done this before. I can't think of many mod's the plane didn't have but now is the time to start planning. Skylight perhaps and removing the diagonal bar in the baggage and putting in the pa-14 cathedral, Atlee just got an STC approved for that one. Sorry again..doug

  31. #31
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    I was looking at the pics on the big screen, telling me I could have done that any time soon. It sure looks pretty deep wet snow from the snowmobile tracks in the background on the second pic. I hope you will get here back in the air soon.


    Anyway, thanks again for sharing. It is something that could or will hapen to every one of us.
    Last edited by Olibuilt; 03-11-2015 at 09:22 PM. Reason: sorry

  32. #32
    Glidestone's Avatar
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    I found the video complete with narrative. I can't seem to post it here because it keeps saying file-error. Can I email to someone on this site with more computer savvy than me to post it. Send me a PM. Thanks.

  33. #33
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Colorguns, Thanks for posting this valuable information. Hopefully, a highly experienced pilot is one who has learned by observing and remembering the other pilots mistakes. The other pilot's experiences are often the best teacher. Observe and learn.
    N1PA

  34. #34
    ths's Avatar
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    You can land in a considerable amount of snow with 31's - sometimes. But it may bite you real quick too. I know of one highly experienced pilot this year that had the exact same thing happen when landing to pick up hunters with just an early September snow. You're not the first or last one to get bit by this Doug, thanks for being man enough to share your experience so that others might think twice before touching down.

    Another 'most of the time OK' scenario that is easy to get complacent with is taking a slight tailwind on landing or takeoff. I find myself doing it for convenience at times, but it too can bite if you get even a light gust at just the wrong time. Food for thought.

  35. #35
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Dont know if this might help folks to answer this question or not, but for guys that dont have alot of experence messing around in snowy conditions . Here is an example of how quickly conditions can change............. back when I was doing a fair amount of Sheep Hunting a favorite technique was to find some larger rams hanging by themselves, they often hang early in season pretty high 4/6000 ft. And often near glacers. So naturally to save climbing we would start scheming where you could land on the Glacier to save hiking all day to get up to
    Them. So we would find a spot that appeared to look good, and I liked to throw something out (had a high vis orange boat cushion that worked perfect) then get up above the target area and make a nice long well trimed out approach DOWNHILL to the cushion, and touch down still flying and see what it felt like, lots of times it feels ok until you pushed ahead on the stick and felt resistance and snow would
    Start spraying off the side of my Airstreaks, that is mealy like rock salt stuff , ng so you simply pull up and forgot about it right then, ditto on touching the snow and it feeling like its way to soft and you imeadiatly see dry snow spraying up onto the windshield, off the front of the skis, its too DEEP, or
    God forbid you throw out the cushion and it disapears and then you cant see it! Dont try it......
    Anyway if it all felt right we would then turn around and land back UPHILL on those tracks you just made, and set up a camp, we would usually snow shoe down an area so you could get turned easier.
    Of course we tryed to get the rams as early in the morning as you could so we could get the hel! out of there before the top softened up. However lots of times it didnt work out as planed, and the sun would soften the snow up to the point that
    To even taxi was impossible, then as the day went on it could become too much for wheelskis....... then by 1/2 pm on warm days it will actually turn into something similar to corn , up to you knees in places,to the point even superwide straight skis would be out of bussiness. So we would have to wait till it cooled down and all firmed back up. We would often have to spend an extra nite on the glacier break camp before daylight, and be takeing off when I could just see.
    So there really is no good answer to how much snow you can land in as it isnt as simple as how much it can change from
    Day to day, it is really more like how much it can change from hour to hour, so literally the same place
    That was fine to land on yesterday or even early this morning may flip you this afternoon! We did most of our exploring early in The morning, with good lighting, low temps, no wind etc. And to be honest lots of guys would check out spots with skis first and then screw around with big tires AFTER they had been up there with skis. Bottom line on alot of this bush pilotie
    Stuff that is fine for Paul Clause or Doug Geeting, is actually way over what most of us are capable of doing. So unless Your truely willing ,to "big boy up" and pay the price of admission (and it can be brutal) dont mix wheels with snow unlessYou have done your homework............ pulling the power back thinking your Don Sheldon can easily leave you in a mess,Your going to regret! Fly as safe as you can and you can still get into plenty of trouble.........30" tires are 50 percent better than 8:50s in snow,but for some reason alot of guys think nowadays , that they are 500 percent better, and that is NOT true. I have heard the numbers 4"/8" kicked around camp for 8:50s and 30" tires and those are probably good numbers IF you dont hit a soft spot, but what IF you do? I have taken off in a foot of snow with 31" tires
    And had to roll a wheel out like you would a float, and still went 3/400 ft on one tire to get up enough
    Airspeed to finally get off. But i sure as hel! Didnt want to land there. Hope this may help someone that is
    Anxious to go try his new bushwheels in 2ft of wet snow!! You are simply going to wreck your airplane
    That why when it gets 6/8" deep , get the boards on! Good Luck!
    Last edited by TurboBeaver; 03-19-2015 at 03:46 AM.

  36. #36
    Colorguns's Avatar
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    Well here we are all back together after the wreck! Got it completed in as I understand record time. Back flying the first of August and have since put on 72 hours.
    Just a reminder that deep snow and wheels can/will get you into trouble, hopefully this post might make some one think about where they are going into and STOP before they do what I did.

    Happy flying!!
    Merry Christmas
    colorguns/Doug
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  37. #37
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Looks great Doug, Joe and I need to fly out one of these days

    Glenn

  38. #38
    T.J.'s Avatar
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    I must have been sleeping during physics class in school. Would someone please educate me about "frontal area" in snow? I was under the impression that a larger frontal area takes more energy to push a plane and it pushed more snow in front of it.
    Lets say you have 6" of snow and two planes. One has 31" tires and the other has 8.00 tires. On landing with no brakes, which one will land shorter? I'm guessing it's the plane with the 31s because of the frontal area. If you land to short, the tail comes up and you get a "hat". With the smaller tires, less frontal area, longer landing and you don't get the hat. In this example I'm assuming soft snow.

  39. #39
    40m's Avatar
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    I promised myself in March I would re-read this post before this winter. These pictures of your plane reminded me to do so.
    I thank you again!
    Merry Christmas.

    Glenn

  40. #40

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    Happy to see you got it back together.I remember being asked about landing on the snow with bushwheels.We had a good time that day and hope to do it again this year.If we don't get some snow then we will have to do a winter cookout on wheels.

    Bill

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