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Stewarts System durability and longivity

I think you mention girls, drinking and gambling to throw us pilots off the scent. We probably have a better chance of getting Victoria to tell us her secrete than finding out the Stewarts guy says in Vegas.

John Scott
 
All of these problems are EXACTLY why I stick to the tried and true Stits with Ranthane color coat. Too much time, labor and expense involved to mess around with Stewarts. While I certainly like the idea behind it, (no toxic chemicals), I'll let other people be the Guinea pigs. My opinion.
 
After reading pros and cons on Stewarts I can't help but feel sorry for the guy that hears "we solved the problem with the finish coat" or "the new paint is much better" after he spent lots of time and money using their product. My fabric and finish experience is limited to Poly Fiber products. Always something to learn.
 
I can show you failed Polyfiber and other system jobs as well....topcoats, glue, UV block coats... It's like anything else that's "new".... you're going to hear the ones that didn't have success, (for whatever reason) screaming more loudly than the vast majority that DID have success. I always tell people that using that system is like flying a tail dragger....it's not that difficult, but it certainly is different, and if you keep trying to use it like the system that you're used to, you're not going to have that pleasant of a ride. Land your taildragger the same way you do a 172, and it's not going to give you quite the same result...it takes different technique and thoughts to do it correctly. If you can pay attention and learn different habits, it works fine. I have to remind myself of that almost every time I use it, and I've been using it since the mid 90's. I've had some problems, but when I get HONEST about it, I can trace them back to me.
John
 
No screaming intended. Or whining. Or complaining. Airplane sits outside in temperatures down to fifty below. My amateur opinion is that's the problem. It's hard to compare a Fairbanks winter to one in most other places. The original question was from someone somewhere in Alaska.
 
The paint on the wings is fine on the fabric areas not underlain by metal. The paint on the tops of the leading edges is cracking and bubbling at a high rate. We had the wettest summer in Fairbanks history last year and my wings show it. The moisture got through the cracks and under the paint and it bubbled like crazy so that I had to lift off large areas of bubbling to smooth the leading edge. I'm convinced that the metal underneath is the problem as I have had very little cracking in other areas. .

You might consider the posibility of the metal underneath the fabric having been a heat sink, causing the water in the paint to be reluctant to evaporate in these areas. The result might be a not sufficiently cured primer on top of the metal parts being coated with the topcoat, trapping the solvent (water) underneath. The primer-to-paint interphase would have a shaky cohesion at best, leading to the possibility of pealing. Also, if the water (the primer solvent, in this case) is trapped beneath the topcoat, the migrating softeners (flex agents) in the primer may act as a sponge, causing the blistering.

This may be caused by failing to let the substrate reach a sufficient temperature before applying paint (taking a wing from a cool workshop into a warmer paint booth) - or from letting the temperature in the working area drop after the primer was applied and seemed dry to the touch. One needs to keep up the substrate temperature when working with water borne paints. Otherwise, a poor water resistance might be the outcome.
 
Thanks for all of the replies to my questions. You all have provided a lot of information to think about
 
I'm in the same boat as dukeair. I'm rebuilding the wings on my Tcraft. My plane lives out side in Alaska all year long. I've used Dope and Poly fiber for 20 years and have never had the top coat blister or peel off. In my experience with those two products if you make a mistake it becomes evident very soon after spraying. I love the idea of getting away from the nasty chemicals but it seems like after reading this post and ones like on other sites its a gamble and comes at the cost of possibly having major problems in the future.

I'm bummed out. I was hoping there was going to be a more positive light shown on this covering system.
 
Hoping for a bit of advice. My son recently bought a PA22/20 that was painted with Stewart’s system before 2013. That was the first time I saw the aircraft in person. It was a 20’ paint job. A friend purchased in in 2018 and flew it from Arkansas to Alaska where it lived in my hanger for a couple years. The paint was okay at that time. When my friend was able I flew it to Dillingham where he picked it up. It’s lived outside in Anchor Point for a couple years now. We agree to purchase it a few days ago hoping we could somehow deal with the paint that is peeling off the top side of the wings in big sheets without having to recover the wings right away. We discovered the paint was not applied properly over polyfiber which was through silver. No scuffing of the silver is evident. No primer, just a thick coat of rubbery Stewart’s top coat. I’m wondering if anyone has advice on what it might take to peel off that top coat? When we pick it up I’m honestly hoping for rain… maybe the rain with help rip off the paint? I really don’t want to try and pressure wash it off. Maybe use that steam thing auto detainers use? Any ideas?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
First off, without a field approval, the fabric isn't legal. Period. Can't mix systems since 2000. Truthfully, you'll have about the same amount of time and effort to pull the fabric and start over and do it right.
John
 
First off, without a field approval, the fabric isn't legal. Period. Can't mix systems since 2000. Truthfully, you'll have about the same amount of time and effort to pull the fabric and start over and do it right.
John

Yeah knew that. My question is how can I strip the wrong paint and complete the polyfiber process correctly…


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Seriously. Recovering is way easier and less frustrating than trying to strip/sand and repaint, and you’ll have a much better finished product if you recover. Not what you wanted to hear maybe, but it’s true...
 
ive worked with dope, poly, stewart, and various RC iron on fabrics which is basically the same thing as this new orotex i believe.
heres my pros and cons list ranked best to worst with a few excuses for my opinion. im not including my opnion on orotex other then i simplydont trust it. if iron on fabric hardly works on RC planes why would i trust it with my ass strapprd to it, so im not even including it on these rankings.
time prooven
1. dope 50-100yr old proccess depending on how you look at it
2. poly (not sure when it came out but its on planes older then 30 yrs which means its proven)
3. stewart (already has lots of mixed results in a wide range of time frames)

climate sensitvity during application
1. poly
2. dope (2 times more sentitive to climate)
3. stewart (ive seen some disastrous and expensive results due to humidity and mix ratios being a tiny bit off

sandability
1. dope
2. poly is cloesly tied with dope
3. stewart (this stuff was like sanding rocks)

non ethynol fuel resistance
1. dope
2. poly (again these are tied
3. stewart systems (it had a tendancy to swell when left in the presence of wet fuel, which in turn made it easily peel)

hazeing resistance to rags
1. ranthane (dope)
2. poly (another tie with dope)
3. stewart. (dry micro fiber rags will haze stewart if the mix is not PERFECT, use whire cotton towels instead.)

rejuvination
1. dope
2. poly
3. stewart (i dont beleive this is even an option)

repairability
1. dope
2. poly
3, stewart

shop/cost/time ratio
1. poly (due to its less picky enviromntal propeties
2. dope (basically a tie with poly)
3. stewart (i know several people that after having used stewart will never use is again, including me)

ease of prep work
1. poly (its slightly less picky with surface impurites then dope
2. dope
3. stewart (again fails miserably)

feild repairabllity
1. dope
2. poly
3. i dont think stewart can even compete in this one lololol.

my preferences in this order
1. dope, it doesnt make me headaches like poly does
2. poly.
13. <not a typo....... stewart. it has lots of complaints. it cant lay claim to being time proven in a solidly positive manor. is not easily field repairable. it takes longer to apply and generally gets very sub par results. stewart systems is more of an attempt to reinvent the wheel of fabric paint at the expense of the wrong customers (pilots vs tent manufactures) in the silly name on being water based (if their still using that as a selling perk) which is pure novilty due to the fact theirs still 1,000's of chemicals in it. if it was legal i'd use house paint long before stewart.

i used dope on my cub on my cub, didnt skimp on UV blocker and i know its fabric will last about 30 yrs.... and that in its self is pricless.:)
 
Nice breakdown. Only change I would make is repairability - Stewarts can be easily repaired. You cannot blend the finish as with dope, but then you really can't do that with Poly Tone or Aerothane either.

I kind of like the Stewarts system through Ekofill, but I will never go near their top coat. I do not have that kind of skill.

My Decathlon is 1992 Butyrate. I have been polishing it for part of its annual, and where I rub the 3M compound, I can see my face grinning back. Pre-Consolidated Randolph, which probably cannot be bought today.

My personal Cub is 1976 Stitts with 1981 auto acrylic enamel. Likewise I can see my reflection, but it is starting to crack along the stringers.
 
In Wasilla, Ak I painted my murphy rebel in 2012 and it was beautiful. Had it hangared. Fast forward 6 yrs, now in willow, no hangar, -28, paint on metal began to pop and blister; you could peel it off in sheets! Fabric on the flaperons was fine. My guess is the metal contracted in the cold and popped the paint off. Interestingly, ALL of the metal that lost paint was .020. All other areas with thicknesses ranging from .025-.065 remained as they were. My guess is less contraction with the thicker metal.
when I spoke with the Stewart folks they said I must not have prepped it properly. I was very careful, followed their not so simple instructions to the letter. If I ever repaint I’ll probably use Delfleet but it’s so dang expensive I might just fly a hobo plane.
 
I could write a book on waterborne paint failures but the two main causes are poor prep work and trapped humidity. All it takes is a humid day to double the dry times and if it doesn't dry correctly it's a time bomb. Personally waterborne paint offends me for a number of reasons I won't dive into and I don't recommend it. Might also add that if it's too thick a failure is also possible.
For me a good old urethane with uv blocker or even enamel has stood the test of time.
 
I could write a book on waterborne paint failures but the two main causes are poor prep work and trapped humidity. All it takes is a humid day to double the dry times and if it doesn't dry correctly it's a time bomb. Personally waterborne paint offends me for a number of reasons I won't dive into and I don't recommend it. Might also add that if it's too thick a failure is also possible.
For me a good old urethane with uv blocker or even enamel has stood the test of time.

Trapped humidity or moisture is no different than trapped solvents; both will cause issues and solvent pops in the next coat. I teach and cover with Stewart Systems in 60-80% humidity all the time and yes, I have to watch my cure time between coats to avoid issues of trapped moisture. When working with EkoFill (uv) it MUST be dry before additional cross coats and topcoating. That is easily determined by observing the sanding; dusty sanding is dry and balled up sanding isn't dry. Filling the weave with EkoBond (3 to 1 glue to distilled water) before application of the EkoFill prevents any problems with delamination of the EkoFill from the fabric and prevents issues of water inside a wing causing concerns. As to top coats peeling; that can happen with any system if the prep work isn't good or if there are contaminants present; putting our topcoat on EkoFill that isn't dry will cause problems; not something that can be rushed. I'm sorry waterbourn systems "offend" you but they are here to stay in many different coating systems; not just aircraft fabric.

Stewarts Systems is a catalyzed 2 part system and is only different in that it doesn't use MEK or other solvents to carry the paint. Yes, it is different to shoot and there is a learning curve. We have been working with many A&P schools that are switching from solvent based systems to our system due to the obvious issues of toxicity. As many of us have seen, purchasing some solvents in some areas of the country has become difficult and many solvents have been reformulated due to EPA restrictions. I suspect the time will come when some of the needed solvents will no longer be available and waterborne paints will become more and more prevalent; not much any of us can do about that. Learning to use any newer painting and covering systems is like any new tool or techniques; it takes time but adds to the rebuilders knowledge base and ability to repair what comes into there shop.

Marty 57
 
I have recovered 3 cubs with Stewart’s and have already recovered 2 of them due to blisters. I recovered my cub (#3), the wings came out beautiful and I hung them up in the hanger for almost a year till I finished the rest of the rebuild. I assembled the aircraft and put it outside to work on other projects. It rained for two weeks and the wings looked like they had raindrops all over them, they were blisters. Stewart’s told me that when I recovered mine (2014) that they had some problems with the paint and they would give me a discount on new product. I will have to recover mine if I want top dollar and you can bet it won’t be Stewart’s. I figure I will catch hell from all the Stewart’s believer's but they can do what they want, My experience has been awful and has cost me thousands of $ and hundreds of hours
 
I have recovered 3 cubs with Stewart’s and have already recovered 2 of them due to blisters. I recovered my cub (#3), the wings came out beautiful and I hung them up in the hanger for almost a year till I finished the rest of the rebuild. I assembled the aircraft and put it outside to work on other projects. It rained for two weeks and the wings looked like they had raindrops all over them, they were blisters. Stewart’s told me that when I recovered mine (2014) that they had some problems with the paint and they would give me a discount on new product. I will have to recover mine if I want top dollar and you can bet it won’t be Stewart’s. I figure I will catch hell from all the Stewart’s believer's but they can do what they want, My experience has been awful and has cost me thousands of $ and hundreds of hours

I had a local stewarts "guru" cover and paint a set of tail feathers for me. They spent a month in his hangar drying before installed on my pacer. 3 days after having it outside at the airport they started blistering and wrinkling up. The only way to fix them right is strip and recover a brand new cover and paint job I paid a stupid amount of money to have done. You can bet that I will be doing it myself this time and will use poly products that will actually hold up to AK for years, not days and can be easily repaired when needed.
 
Maybe it's time for trained and certified shops to do the painting. Let them deal with the callbacks. Every day I see a few locals that have had problems for some reason.

Gary
 
Airtech coatings and be done with it. Will outlast most of us, even left out side in AK, and still look great.
 
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Trapped humidity or moisture is no different than trapped solvents; both will cause issues and solvent pops in the next coat. I teach and cover with Stewart Systems in 60-80% humidity all the time and yes, I have to watch my cure time between coats to avoid issues of trapped moisture. When working with EkoFill (uv) it MUST be dry before additional cross coats and topcoating. That is easily determined by observing the sanding; dusty sanding is dry and balled up sanding isn't dry. Filling the weave with EkoBond (3 to 1 glue to distilled water) before application of the EkoFill prevents any problems with delamination of the EkoFill from the fabric and prevents issues of water inside a wing causing concerns. As to top coats peeling; that can happen with any system if the prep work isn't good or if there are contaminants present; putting our topcoat on EkoFill that isn't dry will cause problems; not something that can be rushed. I'm sorry waterbourn systems "offend" you but they are here to stay in many different coating systems; not just aircraft fabric.

Stewarts Systems is a catalyzed 2 part system and is only different in that it doesn't use MEK or other solvents to carry the paint. Yes, it is different to shoot and there is a learning curve. We have been working with many A&P schools that are switching from solvent based systems to our system due to the obvious issues of toxicity. As many of us have seen, purchasing some solvents in some areas of the country has become difficult and many solvents have been reformulated due to EPA restrictions. I suspect the time will come when some of the needed solvents will no longer be available and waterborne paints will become more and more prevalent; not much any of us can do about that. Learning to use any newer painting and covering systems is like any new tool or techniques; it takes time but adds to the rebuilders knowledge base and ability to repair what comes into there shop.

Marty 57

I understand you have skin in the game but waterborne is extremely toxic and only mildly better than solvent. It's also not magic or a new special material. In fact it's mostly fiberglass resin or other extremely common paint materials used in all sorts of things. I can't tell you the exact makeup of your product but I know it's resin. Bottom line is it's hard to work with and has a higher failure rate. I'm staring at a failure as I write this that didn't last ten years. It's just brittle and has low adhesion. Those are facts
 
Around 2019 I think Stewart’s added the step Marty mentioned with the 3:1 glue/water mix to fill the weave. Do this before the UV coats and you get excellent adhesion. If anyone on here knows if a situation where this new step was done and still had trouble, I’d be interested to know about it.
 
I understand you have skin in the game but waterborne is extremely toxic and only mildly better than solvent. It's also not magic or a new special material. In fact it's mostly fiberglass resin or other extremely common paint materials used in all sorts of things. I can't tell you the exact makeup of your product but I know it's resin. Bottom line is it's hard to work with and has a higher failure rate. I'm staring at a failure as I write this that didn't last ten years. It's just brittle and has low adhesion. Those are facts

Your above comments, Sir, show me that you have no real knowledge of Stewart Systems and are simply out to bash the product. Our system is not a resin; where do you get that idea? Fiberglass resin is not even remotely similar to a our paint. Waterborne systems are highly toxic you say ..... how is that even possible? You admit above that you have no idea of the makeup of the product but make claims about its chemistry. As an STC'd finishing system, it passes or exceeded all FAA certification for adhesion, flexibility, and longevity. Your above comments are simply incorrect and false.
Marty57
 
Popcorn, anyone?

if it is non-toxic, how come my buddy wore a full body suit and face mask? You ought to be able to spray it with a bandanna around your nose.

Is there absolutely nothing in that finish coat that can hurt your lungs except for particulate matter?
 
I am pretty happy with the flap I did on a Pawnee with Stewart’s system. Coming up on two years ago. You can’t just jump into the Stewart’s System. It’s nothing like any of the other systems. You need to do some practice and don’t be afraid to call tech support.
 
Popcorn, anyone?

if it is non-toxic, how come my buddy wore a full body suit and face mask? You ought to be able to spray it with a bandanna around your nose.

Is there absolutely nothing in that finish coat that can hurt your lungs except for particulate matter?

Just to clear things up Bob, your friend painted Stewart Systems EkoPoly Premium with me, in my shop, without either of us wearing anything other than regular clothes; both in short sleeves as I recall. The mask is to prevent inhalation of particulate matter; no one wants to paint the inside of their lungs with any paint.
Marty57
 
Well, that is a definite plus. Can you release the components that catalyze it?

I have had no blistering on the Eko-fill under dope or Poly Tone. Of course I do not live in Alaska, and all the Cubs live in hangars.

As stated above, I do not have the personality traits necessary to spray the Stewart top coat - my loss, I guess. I kinda wish I had half of Ed's neatness, precision, and tenacity. His Cub is flying, and has a good ten foot finish.
 
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