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Thread: Need Advice For PA-12 Mods For Summer Alaska Trip

  1. #1

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    Need Advice For PA-12 Mods For Summer Alaska Trip

    Hi Everyone


    I am new to SuperCub.org and am looking for some advice about what mods I should do to my PA-12 for an Alaska back country trip I am going on this coming July. Currently the plane is a stock PA-12 with a O-235, 26" Good Year tires and PA-18 Tail Feathers. I am in the process of installing a O-320 (using the Kenmore Air Harbor STC), JPI EDM900 engine monitor and Steve's Aircraft Gascolator. Below are the following mods I am thinking about doing and would appreciate any advice you guys can give.

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    1. The Kenmore Air Harbor STC calls for a Sensenich M74DM52 or McCauley 1A170GM7450 propeller but I have heard that the Borer prop is better to use. Is there a STC out there to put it on a 150 HP PA-12 with a Kenmore O-320 STC? Or is there a Catto prop I can use? If so whats the cost of the STC and a used prop for either?


    2. Sutton Exhaust with cabin heater air-scoop and rear mounted oil cooler


    3. Garmin 430W and everything to make the plane IFR


    4. Seat belts with shoulder harnesses. What are good seat belts to get? Do I need the Automatic Inertia Reels? Do I need the attachment brackets from Atlee Dodge or can I just make my own? http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?opt...stem&Itemid=53


    5. Since I don't have a baggage compartment I plan on strapping gear to the rear seat. I worry about the gear shifting in flight or on landing and fouling the rear stick. Can I remove the rear stick by just unbolting it and than build an aluminum box to cover the remaining moving parts? Can this be done with a simple log book entry or do i need to get a STC/field approval?


    6. Baby Bushwheel Tailwheel from Air Frames Alaska http://www.airframesalaska.com/Tailwheels-s/1814.htm


    7. Steves Vented Booster Brake http://www.stevesaircraft.com/vbrake.php
    or
    Brake Booster from Air Frames Alaska http://www.airframesalaska.com/product-p/8400.htm

    8. 3" Extend Gear like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?opt...gear&Itemid=53


    9. Safety Cables like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?opt...gear&Itemid=53


    10. Are the stock bungee's ok or is there a PA-12 STC for hydrosorbs or the carbon cubs AOSS? If so whats the cost of STC and parts?


    11. Long Step like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?opt...teps&Itemid=53


    12. Refueling Step like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?opt...teps&Itemid=53


    13. Belly Pod. With the stock 18 gal tanks and really no baggage compartment I think a belly pod would be a good way to get a little more of both. Are they a good idea? I have looked at the Airglas web page. I cant afford a new one but if I can find a used one to buy/rent it might be possible for me to afford.


    Is there anything I am missing that is a must have? Is there anything that's not worth doing? My funds are limited and I don't know that I will have the money or time to get everything on this list done. In the future I would like to completely rebuild the plane adding flaps, a bigger baggage compartment, gross weight increase and bigger fuel tanks.


    Thank You -Shane
    Last edited by sflyboy; 12-29-2014 at 04:48 AM.

  2. #2

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    $50 A good pak/bag to carry stuff, if it has good straps to secure with seatbelt all the better.
    $300 InReach or communicator with subscription.
    $300-500 Decent navigation with map like an ipad with foreflight
    $300 good sleeping bag and fair/nothing fancy tent
    $50 warm work gloves/hat

    I am not including Customs fees and planning or hotels, camp food, lots of rope for tiedowns, sleeping pad/engine blanket.

    $1000 right there no need to spend more, heck the 0-235 is just fine. Do not forget cell phone roaming and a decent cheapo camera.

  3. #3
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    "My funds are limited and I don't know that I will have the money or time to get everything on this list done."

    With this in mind I would go with:
    Brake Booster from Air Frames Alaska http://www.airframesalaska.com/product-p/8400.htm less expensive, same performance. (I'm biased)

    Seaworthy has a wood 80" Sensenich prop on his 26" Goodyear equip Kenmore -12 which gives him good performance. Perhaps he will chime in with the model numbers and approval basis?

    Rear stick: Just take it out and cover it with a crush proof box screwed to the floor. No approval required. And presto, now you have a large enough baggage compartment.

    "Are the stock bungee's ok or is there a PA-12 STC for hydrosorbs or the carbon cubs AOSS? If so whats the cost of STC and parts?"
    This involves changing over to complete PA-18 gear. $$$$ Not necessary.

    Automatic inertia real seat belts are more comfortable and convenient. You can make your own attachment. AC 43-13 for approval.

    The step depends on your height. Are you tall enough to comfortably refuel without it?

    The rest of the stuff which you mention is for those who constantly go "off roading". You don't really "NEED" if you are choosing landing areas carefully.

    ps. Are there safety cables for a stock PA-12 landing gear? The ones which are usually seen are on PA-18 gear.
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 12-29-2014 at 12:33 PM.
    N1PA

  4. #4
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mghallen View Post
    $50 A good pak/bag to carry stuff, if it has good straps to secure with seatbelt all the better.
    $300 InReach or communicator with subscription.
    $300-500 Decent navigation with map like an ipad with foreflight
    $300 good sleeping bag and fair/nothing fancy tent
    $50 warm work gloves/hat

    I am not including Customs fees and planning or hotels, camp food, lots of rope for tiedowns, sleeping pad/engine blanket.

    $1000 right there no need to spend more, heck the 0-235 is just fine. Do not forget cell phone roaming and a decent cheapo camera.
    Great recommendations, and:

    Equip for IFR??? Don't even think about it. Couple reasons, not the least of which the 12 isn't approved for IFR on it's TC. Could be done, but will require a LOT more than just a Garmin 430W. AND, single engine IFR in a non de-iced airplane in Alaska can be a life limiting exercise, even in summer. If the weather's bad, take the time to explore the area where you're stuck--there's always things to see, no matter where you're at. IFR could be done, but not necessary and probably not a good idea in any case, at least in my opinion.

    Fueling steps: Yes

    Gear mods: Maybe. If you're going this route, convert to Cub gear. Big bucks, and again, depends on where you're going to land.

    Better mod than all those $$$$ gear mods: Buy a set of Bushwheels. They'll do a lot for your Angle of attack on the ground, plus absorb a lot of abuse from landings/takeoffs. Others can address whether the stock 12 gear can take a lot of abuse....in my experience that gear (with new bungees) is pretty good. Maybe a clamp on brace between main gear leg and cabane, or a weld on one, if you can get approved.

    Gear safety cables for sure.

    Atlee Dodge sells a rear stick cover, or as Pete says, make one out of aluminum sheet.

    Fuel tanks: In my experience with the 12 (not extensive) those terne plate fuel tanks often leak, and are really tough to repair. Are your tanks in REALLY good shape? If not, that's where I'd spend money as opposed to many of those other mods. Dakota tanks. If your tanks are in really good shape, maybe spend that money on other stuff.

    But, mostly, I'd just buy gas, good camp gear, and go for it. A good prop to go with the 320 is an obvious choice, of course, assuming you're set on the 320.

    MTV

  5. #5
    skukum12's Avatar
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    Do yourself a HUGE favor and forget the IFR. Save $ and go with cub gear and bushwheels. Get fuel capacity. Dakota has 23 gallon tanks and Atlee has 30s. 160 hp pistons give more power and fuel economy.

    And of course x2 on MTVs statement.
    "Always looking up"

  6. #6
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    also... as far as that IFR stuff....

    http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...ad+alaska+maps

    Alaska, it turns out, has never been mapped to modern standards. While the U.S. Geological Survey is constantly refining its work in the lower 48 states, the terrain data in Alaska is more than 50 years old, much of it hand-sketched from black-and-white stereo photos shot from World War II reconnaissance craft and U-2 spy planes.Errors abound. Locals tell of mountains as much as a mile out of place. Streams flow uphill, and ridges are missing because a cloud happened by when the photo was taken.
    “Mars is better mapped than the state of Alaska,”.

  7. #7

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    You can have a great time with your stock 12..

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Brake Booster from Air Frames Alaska http://www.airframesalaska.com/product-p/8400.htm less expensive, same performance. (I'm biased)
    Great. On there web page they say that it requires “FAA approved high-pressure brake lines”. Does something like Aeroquip 303 hose work? If not what does?

    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Rear stick: Just take it out and cover it with a crush proof box screwed to the floor. No approval required. And presto, now you have a large enough baggage compartment.
    I was hoping that it was this easy

    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Automatic inertia real seat belts are more comfortable and convenient. You can make your own attachment. AC 43-13 for approval.
    Great! Are the ones from Univair a good choice? http://www.univair.com/piper/parts/4...r-harness-kit/

    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    The step depends on your height. Are you tall enough to comfortably refuel without it?
    Well I can check the tank level and fill up at the the pump currently without a step but it is a little difficult at times. I don't see myself being able to use a gas can One of my ideas was to bring a few 5 gal gas cans and leave them at base camp. That way I don't have to fly back to a real airport all the time. What does everyone think about flying with two to three 5 gal gas cans in the back seat?


    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    ps. Are there safety cables for a stock PA-12 landing gear? The ones which are usually seen are on PA-18 gear.
    Good question. I have no idea. Next time I am at the airport I will look at the plane. Does anyone have safety cables on a stock PA-12 gear?

  9. #9
    mvivion's Avatar
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    No need to go to airport:

    Atlee's web site shows 2089-12 gear safety cables for PA 12/14.

    MTV

  10. #10
    jr.hammack's Avatar
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    get alaska airframes/bushwheels fuel bags instead of cans or jugs stores great empty or full better!!!

    jr.

  11. #11
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Pod? You could put all your crap in there

    Glenn

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Equip for IFR??? Don't even think about it. Couple reasons, not the least of which the 12 isn't approved for IFR on it's TC. Could be done, but will require a LOT more than just a Garmin 430W. AND, single engine IFR in a non de-iced airplane in Alaska can be a life limiting exercise, even in summer. If the weather's bad, take the time to explore the area where you're stuck--there's always things to see, no matter where you're at. IFR could be done, but not necessary and probably not a good idea in any case, at least in my opinion.
    So my desire to make the plane IFR is more for the fact that I typically fly around the California cost and get fogged in and out of airports frequently. I have no desire to fly in true IFR weather in a cub, especially around Alaska (I am not that good of an IFR pilot and I value my life). I have gone back and forth about putting a Garmin 430W in the plane. (Mainly because of the cost issue $8.5k ). I also have thought about just putting a VOR/ILS into the plane. I will have to look into the IFR and TC thing. I have never heard of it before. I talked to my local avionics shop about installing the 430W to make the plane IFR and he said it was on the Garmin STC and would be relatively easy. From my IFR training I thought the plane just had to have the required minimum equipment and you were good to go, but I guess that might not be correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Gear mods: Maybe. If you're going this route, convert to Cub gear. Big bucks, and again, depends on where you're going to land.

    Better mod than all those $$$$ gear mods: Buy a set of Bushwheels. They'll do a lot for your Angle of attack on the ground, plus absorb a lot of abuse from landings/takeoffs. Others can address whether the stock 12 gear can take a lot of abuse....in my experience that gear (with new bungees) is pretty good. Maybe a clamp on brace between main gear leg and cabane, or a weld on one, if you can get approved.
    Does switching to the cub gear require cutting/welding tubes on the fuselage?

    What does a used set of 31" or 35" Bushwheels go for?

    Do you or anyone have a picture of what the clamp on brace might look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Atlee Dodge sells a rear stick cover, or as Pete says, make one out of aluminum sheet.
    Great! I dint know Atlee Dodge made one. I will look into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Fuel tanks: In my experience with the 12 (not extensive) those terne plate fuel tanks often leak, and are really tough to repair. Are your tanks in REALLY good shape? If not, that's where I'd spend money as opposed to many of those other mods. Dakota tanks. If your tanks are in really good shape, maybe spend that money on other stuff.
    My right tank has been recently replaced but my left does leak and I was going to look into fixing it when I put the new O-320 on. Sounds like that might be harder than I thought. I will look into getting a replacement tank. I want to eventually put 30.5 gal Atlee Dodge tanks in but I am not at a point where I can do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    But, mostly, I'd just buy gas, good camp gear, and go for it. A good prop to go with the 320 is an obvious choice, of course, assuming you're set on the 320.
    The whole reason I started down the O-320 route is that the current O-235 that is on the plane is at the end of its life (I wanted to make this trip last year but my IA said don't go until you get a better engine on the plane). Any suggestions on a prop and were I can get the STC paperwork for it?

    Thank You
    Shane
    Last edited by sflyboy; 12-29-2014 at 02:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skukum12 View Post
    Do yourself a HUGE favor and forget the IFR. Save $ and go with cub gear and bushwheels. Get fuel capacity. Dakota has 23 gallon tanks and Atlee has 30s. 160 hp pistons give more power and fuel economy.

    And of course x2 on MTVs statement.
    How hard are the Dakota 23 gallon or Atlee 30's to put in? Is this something that by the time I am done I have just about recovered/rebuilt the whole wing?

    Is there any STC paperwork out there for the 160HP pistons?

  14. #14
    Speedo's Avatar
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    DEET and lots of it.
    Speedo

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    Here is a picture of my rear PA-18 Stick Cover made by my mechanic. You will notice that it attached to the floor with Velcro not screws. It was my mechanic's opinion that screws required FAA approval and Velcro was a temporary attachment and required no STC. Regardless the cover works well.
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    If the pilot fears to test his skills with the elements, he has chosen the wrong profession.....Lindbergh

  16. #16
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    Dodge or dakota tanks are normally installed at rebuild. It can be done otherwise but it is a fairly intensive task
    "Always looking up"

  17. #17
    moneyburner's Avatar
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    1. Don't bother with IFR; you will be adding a lot of weight and gyros that will fail often from vibration, introducing unnecessary complexity and spending a large box of money to get it that way. This is a VFR airplane; if the weather is bad, just don't fly that day. If it's getting bad, land somewhere. If you're worried about getting caught, try out a Dynon D1 or D2 for emergencies. A transponder is handy when crossing the border or near busy airspace; in fact, if you don't have one you'll need a TSA waiver, which takes another week or so after applying.

    2. I have a Firmin pod that was installed with a field approval, two five gallon fuel bags from Bushwheels. Works great. The Airglas pods are nice, STC'd and cost considerably more than the Alaska Bushpods (Firmin). I have Bob Piatt's phone number if you want to talk to him about the Firmin Pod. Mine was $2200 in 2013.

    3. Fuel computer. I use an E.I. model FP-5L that takes a data input from my Aera 550. (the Aera has a power/data cable installed in the plane with the two data wires connected to the fuel computer). It gives me fuel to waypoint, amount of fuel remaining, current burn rate, etc. I certainly don't count on it, but it offers up some peace of mind and confirmation of what I have measured. It's been amazingly accurate. I still have 18 gallon tanks with a 160hp, so I'm pretty diligent about keeping track of it. There is no substitute for knowing your fuel burn at various power settings and being aware of your range. Bigger tanks require structual modifications inside the wing.

    4. STC SA02170AK (Dan's Aircraft, Merrill Field, Anchorage) for installation of 1A170GM 82/41 through 82/44 Borer prop. It is suitable for the Kenmore 0-320 installation. Requires minimum 850-6.00 tires for ground clearance. A new prop is around $4400? The Catto prop is better, I've heard. (I can't afford one).

    5. iPad mini with Foreflight or similar. I have a RAM mount and a powered antenna for it that goes on the skylight on the inside. The iPad has a GPS antenna, but it's not very good; the external GPS antenna is necessary. You have to load up the charts for whereever you're going before you leave cell tower coverage, but it works okay for me.

    6. A USB power plug or two installed in the panel for above. This simplifies things and keeps all those damned cords at bay. Sort of.

    7. Shoulder harness: You can install them easily. Atlee has brackets and fittings, and the FAA will give you very little grief about doing so. Inertial reels are great, but not necessary.

    8. 31" Bushwheels. Better prop clearance, better stance when taking off and they'll absorb more bumps.

    9. PA-18 gear, unless your old PA-12 gear is in very good shape. Remember, if that gear is original, it might be nearly 70 years old, so if you're keeping it, inspect it very carefully.

    10. Atlee safety cables, absolutely.

    And, some things you didn't ask about, may already know about, but here they are anyway . . . .

    11. If you're flying through Canada, and you probably are, get a SIM card for your phone when you get there. I have a prepaid one from Rogers Canada, got a new phone number and didn't need a local address. It was about $30; this has saved me hundreds of dollars in roaming and data charges which I have subsequently squandered on beer. I didn't bother getting one for my iPad; I turn off data when in Canada and find wifi when I need to load a chart.

    12. An eAPIS account with US Customs and Border Protection and an annual user fee window sticker. Setting it up isn't user-friendly, but once it's done, it works pretty well. Don't wait until the week before you leave, because it takes some time. AOPA has a tutorial: http://www.aopa.org/Flight-Planning/Canada.

    13. Here's info you might want from Canada Border Services Agency: http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publicati...f5061-eng.html. I also went through the trouble of getting an FCC Restricted Radio Telephone Operator's and a station license for the airplane, which is required, but no one will ever ask you for it. I primarily did it so I would not have anything for my insurance company to nag about in the event of a problem. Others rightly feel that it probably is never going to be needed, but I prefer being thorough.

    14.Which brings us to insurance; talk to your insurer before leaving and tell them what you have planned and see what they say. Ask them about off-airport operations, if you're planning that.

    15. A shotgun or hunting rifle is okay in Canada, but leave your pistol at home; they have absolutely no sense of humor concerning that. I have a stainless Mariner 12 ga pump that doubles as an emergency survival/bird gun. Bears hate it, and it also shoots flare rounds so I don't have to bring that thing.

    16. Flight plans in Canada use ICAO format, which is different. NavCanada (and others) have info, if you aren't familiar. Generally, I've found that when calling in a flight plan, they're pretty helpful and won't mock you if you don't know all the details.
    Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur

  18. #18
    moneyburner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sflyboy View Post
    How hard are the Dakota 23 gallon or Atlee 30's to put in? Is this something that by the time I am done I have just about recovered/rebuilt the whole wing?

    Is there any STC paperwork out there for the 160HP pistons?
    I have an 0-320-B2B 160. I can't use autogas because of the higher compression.
    Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur

  19. #19
    moneyburner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sflyboy View Post

    My right tank has been recently replaced but my left does leak and I was going to look into fixing it when I put the new O-320 on. Sounds like that might be harder than I thought. I will look into getting a replacement tank. I want to eventually put 30.5 gal Atlee Dodge tanks in but I am not at a point where I can do that.
    Wag Aero has aluminum 18 gallon replacement tanks. Mine were destroyed in a windstorm, and Dakota didn't have theirs on the market yet. I got sight gauge fittings welded into the new tanks at Atlee's shop; both of the new ones leaked, so if you get one, have it tested and patched before installing it.
    Last edited by moneyburner; 12-29-2014 at 04:57 PM.
    Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur

  20. #20
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  21. #21
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    Atlee's cables are for airplanes that have been converted to PA-18 gear.
    If you go with Wag tanks have them leak checked before you install them. Dakota Cub has 24 gallon tanks but some wing de-cover will be required to install them. When you are flying into a 40 mph headwind would you prefer to have gas or pretty wings? Cubtanks.com has J-5 tanks but I don't believe their PA-12 tanks are approved yet, may be worth a call if your serious about new tanks.
    Have fun, Jim
    Last edited by cruiser; 12-29-2014 at 05:42 PM. Reason: added Cubtanks.com info

  22. #22
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sflyboy View Post
    Great. On there web page they say that it requires “FAA approved high-pressure brake lines”. Does something like Aeroquip 303 hose work? If not what does?
    The 303 lines are acceptable or any other reinforced lines. The original Piper lines swell up and can leak at the fitting, even when new.
    N1PA

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by moneyburner View Post
    I have an 0-320-B2B 160. I can't use autogas because of the higher compression.
    Petersen has the STC for the O-320-B2B and the PA-12. It requires 91 Octane mogas without ethanol. Cost for the STC is $2.00 per HP. I use it on my PA-18 - works great and saves lots of $$$ if you can find non ethanol premium mogas.
    Mike

  24. #24
    moneyburner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursa Major View Post
    It requires 91 Octane mogas without ethanol.
    . . . which I can not find anywhere. You are correct, though; I misspoke.
    Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur

  25. #25
    N5126H's Avatar
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    My two cents, being you are limited on funds.

    By a handheld GPS, like a 496 type. The Ipad and forflight is not nearlly as handy while in flight during tough conditions. (put foreflight on your cell phone) Buy a SAT phone. Your not flying in California, there are not cell towers everywhere. A five gallon can or bag is very handy, full or not. Buy a set of 31" Bushwheels and brake boosters.(for safety reasons) No need for Baby Bushwheel for your use. Get the Dodge rear stick cover. Buy a handheld 406ELT. Make a medical kit. Borer prop is great, but you will fly slower, and unless you really want the shortfield performance as opposed to the cruse speed forget it. Canada will make you jump through hoops for any type of gun, but no semi-auto and handguns for sure. Have season apporiate gear. Take your time, have fun.


    Quote Originally Posted by sflyboy View Post
    Hi Everyone


    I am new to SuperCub.org and am looking for some advice about what mods I should do to my PA-12 for an Alaska back country trip I am going on this coming July. Currently the plane is a stock PA-12 with a O-235, 26" Good Year tires and PA-18 Tail Feathers. I am in the process of installing a O-320 (using the Kenmore Air Harbor STC), JPI EDM900 engine monitor and Steve's Aircraft Gascolator. Below are the following mods I am thinking about doing and would appreciate any advice you guys can give.

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    1. The Kenmore Air Harbor STC calls for a Sensenich M74DM52 or McCauley 1A170GM7450 propeller but I have heard that the Borer prop is better to use. Is there a STC out there to put it on a 150 HP PA-12 with a Kenmore O-320 STC? Or is there a Catto prop I can use? If so whats the cost of the STC and a used prop for either?


    2. Sutton Exhaust with cabin heater air-scoop and rear mounted oil cooler


    3. Garmin 430W and everything to make the plane IFR


    4. Seat belts with shoulder harnesses. What are good seat belts to get? Do I need the Automatic Inertia Reels? Do I need the attachment brackets from Atlee Dodge or can I just make my own? http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?opt...stem&Itemid=53


    5. Since I don't have a baggage compartment I plan on strapping gear to the rear seat. I worry about the gear shifting in flight or on landing and fouling the rear stick. Can I remove the rear stick by just unbolting it and than build an aluminum box to cover the remaining moving parts? Can this be done with a simple log book entry or do i need to get a STC/field approval?


    6. Baby Bushwheel Tailwheel from Air Frames Alaska http://www.airframesalaska.com/Tailwheels-s/1814.htm


    7. Steves Vented Booster Brake http://www.stevesaircraft.com/vbrake.php
    or
    Brake Booster from Air Frames Alaska http://www.airframesalaska.com/product-p/8400.htm

    8. 3" Extend Gear like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?opt...gear&Itemid=53


    9. Safety Cables like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?opt...gear&Itemid=53


    10. Are the stock bungee's ok or is there a PA-12 STC for hydrosorbs or the carbon cubs AOSS? If so whats the cost of STC and parts?


    11. Long Step like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?opt...teps&Itemid=53


    12. Refueling Step like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?opt...teps&Itemid=53


    13. Belly Pod. With the stock 18 gal tanks and really no baggage compartment I think a belly pod would be a good way to get a little more of both. Are they a good idea? I have looked at the Airglas web page. I cant afford a new one but if I can find a used one to buy/rent it might be possible for me to afford.


    Is there anything I am missing that is a must have? Is there anything that's not worth doing? My funds are limited and I don't know that I will have the money or time to get everything on this list done. In the future I would like to completely rebuild the plane adding flaps, a bigger baggage compartment, gross weight increase and bigger fuel tanks.


    Thank You -Shane

  26. #26
    N5126H's Avatar
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    BTW, can you put a 150HP in a 12 without adding flaps?

  27. #27
    skukum12's Avatar
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    I bought my 12 in '98. It had 150 and no flaps. Flew like a honey. Long mount, kenmore stc I believe.
    "Always looking up"

  28. #28
    FdxLou's Avatar
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    Not really related, but something to consider.....if you have ever been convicted of a felony, or for that matter, a drunk driving conviction,
    you will be turned around at the Canadian Border.

    Lou

  29. #29
    algonquin's Avatar
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    The inertia reels don't have to be certified for airplanes that didn't have shoulder harness w/reels on the tcds, you can use the one for homebuilts. If you drill or weld the frame you need a field approval for the attachment. The lap belt needs to be certified, the shoulder belt also but may be a gray area. Ie. On a cessna that had a shoulder harness you can mount the inertia reel with the AN3 that goes into the factory mount point. There is a letter from the FAA on this, basically if it makes you safer and you don't mod the aircraft as original equipped your ok.

  30. #30
    mvivion's Avatar
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    If you are having to repair your original fuel tanks, I'd bite the bullet and replace them. There are a lot of stories out there of failed repairs on those soldered tanks......not good to have happen a long ways from home, or in the boonies.

    i like Dakota's tanks...good size and quality made.

    MTV

  31. #31

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    Wow, if you are going to be doing all of those mod's you will be out of time and money, if you are like most of us, before you get north of the border. My 2 cents worth. Fly the plane you have right now with as few mod's as possible. You'll save money and weight, After your trip you will have a lot better idea if you ever want to do that again and if you do which mod's you really want. But in the meantime.

    *spent a few bucks on an Oregon aero bottom seat cushion, you can thank me at about hour 8
    * replace your leaky tank with a Wag aero 18 gallon tank, pressure test it for sure first but the first generation ones got the bad rap, I put in a new one a few years ago and its worked great. The 30.5 gallon tanks are too big for most uses, the Dakota cub 24's are great but require wing removal, removal and replacement of a few ribs and new compression members, again a good thing to do if you want after this shake down cruise, but lots of work and something best done when you are also adding flaps at the recover...Been there done that
    *safety cables only work with pa-18 style gear which do require welding new ear tabs on the front fitting. You could replace the original 16 guage cable in the bungee area with a beefer size if so desired.
    *the borer prop requires at least 850's which will require a field approval unless you go with 18 gear, no STC available for 850's on original 12 gear.. Catto prop's aren't STC'd for certified planes yet.
    *I personally don't think you need inertia reels, regular shoulder harnesses by Hooker work great, be sure to get the seat belts that adjust on both sides of the buckle for better comfort. If you attach it with an 'H' bracket to the cross bar above the rear seat you don't need a fancy costly attachment bracket, nor do you need to do any welding.

    * did I mention getting a good front seat bottom cushion....

  32. #32
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT12 View Post
    *I personally don't think you need inertia reels, regular shoulder harnesses by Hooker work great, be sure to get the seat belts that adjust on both sides of the buckle for better comfort. If you attach it with an 'H' bracket to the cross bar above the rear seat you don't need a fancy costly attachment bracket, nor do you need to do any welding.....
    I have inertia reals in my 185 and a fixed harness in my Cub. When adjusted where it will do the most good I find the ability to move around in the seat of the Cub to be restricted. In the 185 it's as though there is nothing there. I wish that I had spent the extra $$ for the Cub.
    N1PA

  33. #33
    algonquin's Avatar
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    I also have the reels in my 185 and will never go without them. Had straight shoulder belts in a Pacer, after a while started wearing them lose thinking I'd tighten them if needed, then stopped putting them on.... Well ah the engine quit on take off new shiny dent in the forehead. Now it a helmet and reels, lesson learned.

  34. #34
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Moneyburner wrote:
    If you're worried about getting caught, try out a Dynon D1 or D2 for emergencies.
    I am very pleased and impressed with my Dynon D1. I've had it for about a year now and it has been completely reliable. It gives more accurate attitude indication after maneuvering than some certified Attitude Indicators.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by algonquin View Post
    I also have the reels in my 185 and will never go without them. Had straight shoulder belts in a Pacer, after a while started wearing them lose thinking I'd tighten them if needed, then stopped putting them on.... Well ah the engine quit on take off new shiny dent in the forehead. Now it a helmet and reels, lesson learned.
    Rats, now you've got me thinking about reels...

  36. #36

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    I'm restoring a -12 right now. I don't really know what to add to this except for the stuff you want to do, be prepared to spend big $$$. Everything you do on these things leads to a snowball effect. For example: One of the downsides to a PA-12 is there is no baggage compartment. It has a canvas sling like a J-3. If you were to put in an extended baggae compartment only to the first bay, like a stock PA-18, you have to move the battery, then you have to find a new location for that. Then you have to take out the elevator controls and install an STC for PA-18 controls, It is not needed, but it is best to have a PA-14 Cathedral brace so you don't have a big tube running down your baggage compartment. Now how are you going to get the bags into the ship? You can install a baggage door or you can take out the rear seat sling and have your back seat on a piano hinge where the seat folds down. Then you still have a cross bar that goes across the frame. You can get an STC for a removeable crossbar that must be in place for flight. This snowball effect does not stop. It goes on and on. Don't ask me how I know.

    There are three downsides to a -12: 1. Baggage space. It is placarded at 41 LBS but if you put your flight bag in the sling, you just cubed out of space. 2. Fuel tanks. Like mentioned above, the original -12 tanks had soldered ternplate. When in choppy air, they will form cracks and leak. You'll be chasing leaks till the cows come home. The float gauge on the bottom of the tank is notorious for bumping a head and causing a leak, They are just junk. Your best bet is a PA-18 sight gauge in the wing root. Now you have to eliminate a headliner there. Your best bet is to do a Skylight , install wing root panels with PA-18 sight gauges and stop your headliner above the rear seat.(Here comes that snowball effect). There are only rear pickups on the tanks so if you are low on fuel, descending from altitude, you could unport your lines. You need to have front and rear pickups on the tanks. Cubcrafters STC incorporates this and eliminates dual fuel valves for 1 valve going Left, Right, Both, Off. This valve will be next to your trim crank. Now that you have eliminated those dual valves, you won't need an inertia reel because without flaps, there is no need to bend over in the seat. Besides all of this, the original fuel tanks were known for collecting water. 3. If you are installing an O-320, you will have problems with your trim. It will most likely slip due to the increased H.P. I used to fly a stock PA-12 and it still slipped. To fix this, you would want to install a PA-18 trim system. Easiest to do when there is no fabric on the frame.

    Again, what you do to one thing on this plane will lead to another. Next thing you know, you are up to your eyeballs in a full blown restoration. I say this not to be negative, just realistic. Best of luck to you on your journey.

    Where in CA are you from?

  37. #37

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    Also, to answer your questions about landing gear, If you plan on going on floats, I would install PA-18 gear. To do this, you will need to weld on ears on the front of the gear fittings. These will be for the landing gear cabane. If you are not going to be on floats, I would leave the PA-12 or preferably go with PA-14 gear. The PA-12 had an AD note against the gear. the flat strap could buckle causing the gear to fold. The AD was to beef up the strap at the axle or install streamlined tubing around the strap, or install PA-14 gear. If you are going to do all of that welding with the AD note, I'd just put on PA-14 gear. Incidentally, PA-12/14 gear has bungee safety cables. They are internal and run from the bungee truss to the top of the gear legs. Some people say that installing PA-18 gear legs mean that you can cut out the bungee truss and I've heard others say that you don't want to do that because that takes away a lot of the strength of the frame. I do not know enough to know if this is true. I do know that if you cut the bungee truss out, you will have to replace the front seat and go with a PA-18 front seat. That PA-12 front seat was/is goofy anyways.

  38. #38
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sflyboy View Post
    How hard are the Dakota 23 gallon or Atlee 30's to put in? Is this something that by the time I am done I have just about recovered/rebuilt the whole wing?
    dodge tanks are easy on a covered wing, 20 to 25 hours to install a pair and paint..

    dakotas are more work on a covered plane, but less work on a rebuild...(if you replace tank bay ribs at same time)

  39. #39
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I do know that if you cut the bungee truss out, you will have to replace the front seat and go with a PA-18 front seat.
    There is an STC to remove the bungee truss and modify the PA-12 seat (Ron Sullivan, if I remember correctly). Pretty easy to do uncovered; covered, one would need to deal with avoiding all the hot grinding residue and welding spatter landing on the belly fabric. I did it on my -12 (uncovered) and I'm happy with the result.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
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  40. #40

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    I think NEW 31 in bush wheels should be at the top of the list. Consider them safety gear. You will do fine with stock 12 gear. All of the mods you want to do are fine but if you are getting short of cash leave the gear, tailwheel, IFR off for now. The new DELORME products are great. You can text in flight anywhere and set up spider tracks, 911 button. All for one price.
    DENNY

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