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Thread: Iox-409 fadec

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    Iox-409 fadec

    Anyone have experience with FADEC systems on Lycoming/Titan engines?

    I haven't been able to obtain any information on Lycoming's IE2 FADEC for their smaller engines. I know it was their initial plan to develop it for most of their engines. Maybe that's changed?

    Also I'm planning a kit plane project in the near future and I'm wondering if the IOX-409 fits under the standard cowling or if a custom cowling would be required. Any experience with this engine on a cub??

  2. #2
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supercub83a View Post
    ......Also I'm planning a kit plane project in the near future and I'm wondering if the IOX-409 fits under the standard cowling or if a custom cowling would be required. Any experience with this engine on a cub??
    I don't know anything about a IOX-409 but a standard Cub cowling is so basic that any modifications to get the proper fit would be a very simple procedure. The only consideration would be the distance between the engine mount attach point and the firewall. Most Lycomings are the same.
    N1PA

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    Relentless's Avatar
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    Hello Supercub.org, sorry I am so late to the party but I am here now and hopefully I can share some of my experiences and knowledge I have gained racing aircraft and various other aviation exploits.

    Getting right to it, I would like to offer more info to this thread specifically the Titan 409 engine, as it seem to be the next real monster engine for those "off road" aircraft that have to have the best!

    The original question concerning "FADEC" and Titan is a bit miss leading. Titan does not actually produce its own FADEC but is selling many engines these days using the EFii Electronic Fuel Injection and DUAL ignition system. Rather than droning on how great it is go to their website or contact Robert Paisley of protect. flyefii.com

    Here is a pic of the EFii injectors on my R409 RV8.


    Here is my panel showing the Efii control head to the left. THis allows you to fine tune the fuel and timing for your installation as well as providing backup engine info like RPM, Oil temp, fuel flow, etc.



    In this thread the XIO-409 is mentioned and I thought it might be worth a quick background on the 409 and the difference between the X series 409 and the R series 409.

    About 5 years ago the former owner of ECi hired my partner Andrew Higgs an FI racing engine designer to develop a stroked crank kit for the 360 engine. Andrew put in over 5000 hours developing the 409 kit that is a combination of a very strong new fully counterweighted crank, lighter but stronger connecting rods, lightweight racing pistons that were designed as a kit that could be installed into any wide deck 360 case.

    Here is a great shot of a stock 360 crank and a 409 crank:


    After trying to work with several different outlets for the 409 kit including Superior and ECi, I was able organize the 409 as part of a new experimental engine shop I set up for ECi called Titan Aircraft Engines.

    Once we started testing the 409 installed in a stock parallel 360 configuration we realized that while we had this incredible additional cc potential, the parallel cylinders simply could not breath enough to get the potential we felt possible in the 409 engine. The x409 series as it is called only produced around 212hp. While this is good compared to a 360 it was nowhere near the 230 we thought it could make.

    We then put together an angle valve version of the 409 and whooalla, the engine made just under 230hp and looked like we might have something. The only problem was now the weight. The new 490 crank is almost 30lbs heavier to handle the additional 100 lbs of torque and add the extra weight and cost of an angle valve cylinder, the damn engine was almost 350lbs! Not good when a 390 or 400 is about 335lbs. The extra 17hp was not worth the penalty in weight and cost.

    The next project Andrew took on was the Cylinder. If you go back to the Franklin all aluminum cylinder days you will find that they really had it right, and I am sure had the company not been sold and made some pretty stupid mistakes, every air cooled cylinder would be built in such manner. Screwing aluminum head on to a steel sleeve in an air cooled engine when you think about it really does not make much sense. The dissimilar metals expand and contract so differently that you have to use rediculous clearances to compensate for our operating ranges. Oil consumption, compression, and inefficiency are all penalties we pay for this old school design.

    The AX50 was since born and is quickly proving its potential. This one piece all aluminum cylinder with removable aluminum sleeve coated with Nickel Carbide coating is lighter and performs much better than either the parallel or angle valve cylinder with less weight, better cooling, and we believe longer service life:

    AX50 Cylinders:

    Simple explanation of our cylinder wall construction.

    The AX50 is designed to be a direct replacement cylinder for either a parallel or angle valve wide deck lycoming 360 or 540 engine. The simplest way to describe the AX50; an all aluminum parallel cylinder that weighs 6.8 lbs less than a parallel cylinder but flows slightly more than an angle valve cylinder, that runs on low octane unleaded fuel/ethanol, and cools 20% better than the best cylinder out there.

    Here are the different versions of R Series engines we now offer with the AX50 cylinders. Silver is a 245lb - 210hp R360, Red is a 285lb -230hp R409, and Blue is a 370lb R540 estimated to be 330hp. (we haven't dyne tested the 540 yet)


    If you have any additional questions I'll try my best to answer your questions.

    The only last item I want to mention is our new overhaul and upgrade service underway. Before you overhaul or possibly send your engine in for a prop inspection, please give me a call and lets talk about converting your existing 360 into one our many different engines. Even your 320 has some really cool opportunities….

    Kevin Eldredge
    805-996-0800
    I am Relentless!

  4. #4
    gpepperd's Avatar
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    Kevin, thanks for the very informative post. Look forward to meeting and chatting when the first 409 come to Alaska. All of us in the Pepperd flying family are very excited about your new engine and cylinders. Greg
    Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of
    that comes from bad judgment. will rodgers

    "Anyone who would give up liberty for safety deserves neither" Ben Franklin

  5. #5
    180Marty's Avatar
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    that runs on low octane unleaded fuel/ethanol,

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    marcusofcotton's Avatar
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    Kevin,
    Google search has a message that your website might be hacked. Would like to hear more on the 320 opportunities, sure many more here would as well.

    Mark J
    Practicing open cockpit extremism

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    Relentless's Avatar
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    Greg,

    Thank you for the encouraging post. I am also really excited to come up and get the first one running. Over the years I have been blessed to be able to make so many friends in the different communities of aviation and it seems that your group is going to be just as exciting! See you in a few weeks…

  8. #8
    Relentless's Avatar
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    Thanks, there seems to be something odd about the installation on the server with Wordpress, we are working to get them message removed with Google but it seems to be a drawn out process… Site has not been hacked.

  9. #9
    Relentless's Avatar
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    First R Series 409 with EFii installed on SQ12, sweet machine! The crossover hose is missing from this pic but the EFii system is a closed loop batch fire injection system. Josh went with complete dual system meaning, all critical components and sensors are duplicated.




    Here you can see the dual fuel pump and regulator installation on the firewall. Most install this in airframe but having everything up front worked out well on this Cub.

  10. #10
    Relentless's Avatar
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    The R Series 335, 360, and 409 all are direct replacement for 320 and 360 Lycomings. There are small modifications necessary for the new AX50 cylinders and cowling should remain the same…..

  11. #11
    dougsappllc's Avatar
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    I was told of some video posted about flight test of this engine in the new QS12,anyone out there have the link?

  12. #12
    Relentless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougsappllc View Post
    I was told of some video posted about flight test of this engine in the new QS12,anyone out there have the link?
    http://youtu.be/JjvhKhrc2S8

  13. #13
    dougsappllc's Avatar
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    Thanks for that.

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    Aktahoe's Avatar
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    Hey Kevin- We spoke a month or two ago and it would be great to get some updates on the 409 series.

    Thanks!

    Kevin
    Aktahoe

  15. #15
    Relentless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aktahoe View Post
    Hey Kevin- We spoke a month or two ago and it would be great to get some updates on the 409 series.

    Thanks!

    Kevin
    Aktahoe
    Sorry for the delay in keeping ya'll up to date but setting up yet another engine shop and trying to get parts during ECi's sale of their business to Continental has been quite a challenge! But, this week has been a good one. I delivered our first R540 and was able to break in my last R409. I say last because we are only offering the 428 version with big bore AX50 cylinders from now on. 3% more horsepower from same package.


    first R540 for Legacy


    Most recent R409 on test stand.

    Next up is our first R428 and then R335….Busy summer

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    I've seen a couple comments on the web about supposed cracking of AX50 cylinders on the R409 in association with the EFII fuel injection. Nothing more than rumors from what I have gathered, but figured I would ask if anyone else has any info that would clear things up. I'm very excited about the future of these engines, thank you for pushing the envelope.

  17. #17
    Relentless's Avatar
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    Rumors? Where have you seen these comments?

    Quote Originally Posted by eskimo77 View Post
    I've seen a couple comments on the web about supposed cracking of AX50 cylinders on the R409 in association with the EFII fuel injection. Nothing more than rumors from what I have gathered, but figured I would ask if anyone else has any info that would clear things up. I'm very excited about the future of these engines, thank you for pushing the envelope.

    I am am building ace engines as fast as I can. The only failure I am aware of with our components happened during destruction testing. Which I am quite proud of when I saw final data on ultimate temps the cylinders where subject to. Over 600 degrees at full power for many hours. Any cylinder will fail at some point when ran over redline. So far in real life operation, or abuse in my case, our stuff is working great.

    Here is the first 428 engine I am finishing up.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #18

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    Glad to hear it. I'll try to find links to the unfounded rumors. Thanks for the timely reply.

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    https://instagram.com/p/4W1iK5KDg9/?taken-by=stolquest
    http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...ly-In-May-8-10 post #35 and #38.

    Here's a couple of the things I read that I was wondering about. I thought there was another one, but I can't seem to find it.
    Last edited by eskimo77; 07-07-2015 at 08:52 PM. Reason: added info

  20. #20

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    Anything new on this? Are cylinders cracking or not?

  21. #21
    Relentless's Avatar
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    NO, the cylinders are not cracking. The only cylinders that have failed are the two in a destruction test where they were taken to well over max limit for 14 and 23 continuos hours at Max power. The other cylinders in the test that remained at our limit of 475 held up perfectly. We are confident that the AX50 and Ax40 cylinders will handle even more temp but for long life we recommend that 430 is the maximum continuos limit…

    I have heard that sales from the new Continental/Titan are spreading this rumor since they can no longer sell our components and must sell their clone parts.

    www.ace-performance.com sign up for email updates on our site to keep up on all customer projects installing our components. Come to the Reno Air Races and watch for yourself as I run my new R750 with our big bore AX50's around the course all week as fast as I can push it.

  22. #22
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Can you get one painted lycoming gray for camo purposes?

    Thinking that one of those engines in a 'certified' might be fun.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  23. #23

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    Thanks for the update. Just trying to keep up on the latest tech.

  24. #24
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    So you are no longer Germany affiliated with ECI? They were the ones asking g people to remove the engines from service? I remember an SQ12 in Alaska installing g and flight testing one and thenot they removed it. The Breeden/Bush Cub 409 seems to to be holding up up.
    Steve Pierce

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    Word is the R-409 on the Breeden/Bush Cub HAS problems and is going back to Kevin to get inspected....................
    Also hear it runs hot unless you fly around burning lots of gas at low power. But makes lots of takeoff power.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
    Word is the R-409 on the Breeden/Bush Cub HAS problems and is going back to Kevin to get inspected....................
    Also hear it runs hot unless you fly around burning lots of gas at low power. But makes lots of takeoff power.
    Well the byproduct of High HP is HEAT...
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  27. #27
    Bob Breeden's Avatar
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    No problems, Sweet Motor, the IO-409. Runs smooth and strong. Since we are running the highest time R series Engine in service, Kevin Eldredge offered to provide a Courtesy Inspection at our convenience. That's great customer service and makes sense to me. Kevin is building and selling R series engines at a rapid pace out of his shop in California. Our IO 409 consumes fuel comparable to it's power output, and will climb at 2,000 fpm - running cool - with the Slat!

    Stop casting aspersions.

    BACK OFF, Ricky Bobby you are a TROLL.
    Last edited by Bob Breeden; 08-31-2015 at 02:09 PM.

  28. #28
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    So are you running an IO-409 or a R-409? Your post is a bit confusing.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  29. #29
    Bob Breeden's Avatar
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    Sure, Steve. It's the R-409, Which is also IO of course. Also with the real sweet EFII. It will idle down as low as 250 rpm with just the lightweight Catto Prop as flywheel mass. Very smooth at all RPM's with the lightweight reciprocating parts.
    Likes gcgrant liked this post

  30. #30
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Any updates on those 409 ??



    AC Aero are promoting a Legion 409ci : https://www.ac-aero.com/legion-kits/
    Last edited by Olibuilt; 10-02-2021 at 02:14 PM.

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