PA18A Model Extended Baggage
- Thread starter D.A.
- Start date
Rice farmer
FRIEND
Nor Cal
We did the reverse dogleg with a large baggage on ours. Some say the flat fuselage flys better. Ours flys well but I haven't flown many others to compare.
If you don't want a rear stick the AG model has tube running back but no stick, You can convert if you go from Utility to standard category. With or without back stick. In Utility category the AG model is is rated for 2070 lbs. The big advantage of a AG model is all the cool pilots have one:smile:
DENNY
DENNY
D.A.
FRIEND
Free America
All good stuff!
Steve's Aircraft (Brian)
FRIEND
White City, Oregon
Which is funny because as soon as you convert to standard the GW goes back. Example, our cub is a 53 PA-18A-135... Utility 2070 GW, Standard 1500 GW... Stupid I know... Ours has been updated with 0-320 and 1750 GW STC... The fuselage is set up for the Wip 2000 STC but need to redo the wings and install those parts to get that STC done...
By the way, our cub weighs 1080 empty...
Brian.
cubpilot2
SPONSOR
Anchorage Alaska
There appears to be a common mis-understanding about the 18As legal gross weight.
The high gross weight for the 18A was only allowed / recommended when operated in the Restricted Airworthiness category where you are essentially a spray plane and has no application when in the Standard Airworthiness Category. Many of the 18As were issued dual airworthiness certificates. You pulled the spray gear, installed the seats and switched airworthiness certificates. (some were listed as dual on the same form)
I said "recommended" gross weight as that high weight is not listed on the Type Certificate and is usually only found on an original weight and ballance form supplied from Piper; and only applied when configured for agriculture work.
I never saw a spray operation in those days that paid much attention to that recomendation. They just knew what they needed for the job and factored in the altitude, temperatures, the size and configuration of the field and went to work. They almost always took off well over 2000 lbs. Aircraft weight was in excess of 1550 with 10 gallons of fuel and a 200 lb pilot. It wasn't uncommon for them to depart on a cool morning with 100 gallons in the hopper; which puts them to at least 2400 lbs.
When in the "Standard" configuration you can do all of the normal stuff with passengers etc; but it is within these Standard operating limitations that you have the normal and utility areas of operation. You are back to the 1750 lb weight in "normal", but your gross weight is only 1500 lbs in Utility cat and your aft CG range moves forward an inch. 50 lbs of baggage is only allowed in Normal cat. No aerobatics including spins are allowed in Normal category. It all on the type certificate for the 150 hp.
Evidently they created the "Utility category" to ensure that the airplane was predictable when doing "unusual" manuvers.
This normal and utility category isn't just for the 18A; as it also applies to the standard PA-18.
I wonder how many people really make sure that they are with the utility category weights when they are doing spins?
The high gross weight for the 18A was only allowed / recommended when operated in the Restricted Airworthiness category where you are essentially a spray plane and has no application when in the Standard Airworthiness Category. Many of the 18As were issued dual airworthiness certificates. You pulled the spray gear, installed the seats and switched airworthiness certificates. (some were listed as dual on the same form)
I said "recommended" gross weight as that high weight is not listed on the Type Certificate and is usually only found on an original weight and ballance form supplied from Piper; and only applied when configured for agriculture work.
I never saw a spray operation in those days that paid much attention to that recomendation. They just knew what they needed for the job and factored in the altitude, temperatures, the size and configuration of the field and went to work. They almost always took off well over 2000 lbs. Aircraft weight was in excess of 1550 with 10 gallons of fuel and a 200 lb pilot. It wasn't uncommon for them to depart on a cool morning with 100 gallons in the hopper; which puts them to at least 2400 lbs.
When in the "Standard" configuration you can do all of the normal stuff with passengers etc; but it is within these Standard operating limitations that you have the normal and utility areas of operation. You are back to the 1750 lb weight in "normal", but your gross weight is only 1500 lbs in Utility cat and your aft CG range moves forward an inch. 50 lbs of baggage is only allowed in Normal cat. No aerobatics including spins are allowed in Normal category. It all on the type certificate for the 150 hp.
Evidently they created the "Utility category" to ensure that the airplane was predictable when doing "unusual" manuvers.
This normal and utility category isn't just for the 18A; as it also applies to the standard PA-18.
I wonder how many people really make sure that they are with the utility category weights when they are doing spins?
Cubpilot2 did a lot better job of explaining things than I did. TCDS: AR-7 has the C.G. range chart with the 2070 lb weight. I just looked at a PA18 A today that had extended baggage with a lowered floor with removable back seat and no rear stick. Lots of room back there. One of the problems is if you fill it all up you will most likely be out the back as far as C.G.. It was a good mod in the old days before the belly pod. but a belly pod is a better plan if you are going to be putting heavy stuff in (meat, fish) I have extended baggage and belly pod I try to keep heavy stuff forward in pod, Passenger, fuel, and me. I can get to my 2,000 gross and still be with the C.G. range but I am at the back of it for sure. I know I could carry the same weight without the pod but I would be out the back with C.G.
DENNY
DENNY
cubpilot2
SPONSOR
Anchorage Alaska
Sorry; I forgot to mention AR7.
I don't know of many airplanes that can be applicable to two Type Certificates but the 18A is, depending on what you are doing. Don't be confused by the "Restricted Category" for External loads or for any other special operations as they fall under 1A2.
The 18A could be used for hauling cargo under AR7 when you would drop in a large plywood floor board that created a level floor from the seat fram to the aft baggage panel. It was notched out for the battery box. I have never seen one of these in use. You can find it shown in some of the parts books and weighed about 15 lbs.
This is from the Notes section of AR7
(c) The Model PA-18A "150" (Restricted Category) is the same as the Standard Category PA-18A "150"
except for minor design changes and can be converted to the Standard Category using the manufacturer's
conversion instructions dated August 6, 1957. When operating in Standard Category, FAA Type
Certificate Data Sheet No. 1A2 will apply.
I don't know of many airplanes that can be applicable to two Type Certificates but the 18A is, depending on what you are doing. Don't be confused by the "Restricted Category" for External loads or for any other special operations as they fall under 1A2.
The 18A could be used for hauling cargo under AR7 when you would drop in a large plywood floor board that created a level floor from the seat fram to the aft baggage panel. It was notched out for the battery box. I have never seen one of these in use. You can find it shown in some of the parts books and weighed about 15 lbs.
This is from the Notes section of AR7
(c) The Model PA-18A "150" (Restricted Category) is the same as the Standard Category PA-18A "150"
except for minor design changes and can be converted to the Standard Category using the manufacturer's
conversion instructions dated August 6, 1957. When operating in Standard Category, FAA Type
Certificate Data Sheet No. 1A2 will apply.
md11freighter
FRIEND
Wasilla
Digging up an old thread.
From how I understand the A model is it originally came from the factory with 2 airworthiness certificates, one normal category and one restricted. The gross weight increase was only valid when operated on the restricted certificate. My paperwork doesn't say much about it on mine...just the two W&B sheets.
My question is if my A model is operated in the restricted category with an external load permit is it now in the 2070 weight category? I would like to see an original airworthiness certificate or the documentation. The FAA who issued my external load permit said that is way beyond his knowledge of the airplane and could be a logical assumption.
Thoughts?
From how I understand the A model is it originally came from the factory with 2 airworthiness certificates, one normal category and one restricted. The gross weight increase was only valid when operated on the restricted certificate. My paperwork doesn't say much about it on mine...just the two W&B sheets.
My question is if my A model is operated in the restricted category with an external load permit is it now in the 2070 weight category? I would like to see an original airworthiness certificate or the documentation. The FAA who issued my external load permit said that is way beyond his knowledge of the airplane and could be a logical assumption.
Thoughts?
Grant
FRIEND
At Work.....
One other thing to consider is the operating rules ( CAM 8 ) that I think existed when the A model was certified allowed for the operator to exceed the published gross weight as long as there was a flight check and a logbook entry by at least a private pilot indicating that the weight increase did not cause it to be uncontrollable.
Basically, overload it and let 'er buck.
And, this is still the case for many ag planes in use today.
Basically, overload it and let 'er buck.
And, this is still the case for many ag planes in use today.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
As long as it is being operated in the Restricted Category.
Grant
FRIEND
At Work.....
Agreed, I only wanted to point out that the operator had the authority to fly a restricted aircraft over gross and was not bound by the published Max Gross Weight for operations IAW CAM 8.
As for the OP first question, I see no advantage to an A model over any other. I like the look of the standard back MUCH better, but as Steve Pierce once said to me regarding a blemish on my airplane... "Can you see it from the pilot's seat?" I replied "no", He said "Don't worry about it then"....That was good advice and since you cant see the flat back of an A model from the pilot's seat it apples here too.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Not to belabor the point Grant, it needs to be emphasized since there are many here who don't understand some of the little details "hidden" in the regulations. An airplane may be issued airworthiness certificates in more than one category, simultaneously. So it is possible that the -18A can operate in the morning at the higher gross weight, yet that afternoon when out on a joy ride it is not allowed.
SuperCub MD
Registered User
Collins, Wisconsin
What are the limitations on your restricted cat certificate (pink slip),they will be on the back. If there is no gross weight mentioned, you have a A model in the restricted category and can run under type certificate AR7 at 2070 gross as long as you comply with all parts of AR7 and your restricted limits.
