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Micro AeroDynamics VG Installation

10-11 years ago VGs were a hot topic on this site and we had the opportunity to learn the whats and whys from Jerry Burr, who at that time even provided videos of his flight tests. The high points of my memory of those threads is that BLR/CubCrafters VGs were only helpful for power off ops. Micros were most beneficial at high AOA. The best opportunity to fly high AOA is power on or at high rates of descent at minimum speed. I've searched the site and can't access Mr. Burr's old video posts. I can find some old threads but if a guy wants to review, or in Skywagon8a's case, review AGAIN... :), here's a good thread to read. Jerry Burr never made any claims or offered any advice about VGs on any wing other than a Cub. At least that I've seen. And I've looked.

http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?39283-VG-Placement-for-different-max-operating-weights
 
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Before VGs, I used up over 400 ft of the 5000 ft paved runway at Anoka County Airport. But now with VGs I consistently land under 250 ft. Yes, I feel much safer now and less concerned about overrunning into the bush. What a relief!
 
On the spin - a good Cub ought not to spin with the ball in the center. I have found they will fly just fine fully stalled - they just shudder q bit.

Bob, I couldn't agree with you more. The key with what you said is with the ball in the middle. That was not the point of the video I posted. I had on power and full rudder and could hardly make is spin. The spin to the left was a very aggressive entry. The VG's definitely make a Cub more difficult to spin. And that is not a bad thing. Without question low speed flight safer.

Mike
 
I think that VGs work but I'm too cheap to find out. And I'm EX so it would only be a couple hundred to find out. I've flown a couple Top Cubs with both std and extended wings and I'm still on the fence. I come over 60 ' trees and no flaps and can do 3 to 400' with out brakes so how are VGs going to help? And then theres the whole snow on the wing thing, how do I throw a blanket over the wing tip and saw the snow off of the top of the wing?

Glenn

Glenn, mine with no flaps pulled, the roll control is still there, crisp, at about stall. Yours was a little mushy in comparison. I don't know if it would change your stall speed but it would probably crispin up the ailerons. But then again when you get slow use the rudders, right? I haven't flown a cub before and after with Vg's.
 
Mine have been on for 16 yrs. and I love them. Flew it with and without them the same day and I ended up with about a 4 mph decrease in stall speed. That was on floats and is roughly a 10% decrease; at least on this aircraft with the cub airfoil. Don't know how others make out, but it improved aileron control right through the stall on my aircraft, and I like that. Reid
 
4 mph I can buy. Many posters claim 15 mph decrease. Jerry Burr did not claim that much, ever. I just spent 20 hours in a Cub with extended flaps, extended wings, and Micro VGs, and I think I prefer the stock wing. What I want is landing gear without toe-in. We had 7/8" toe-in measured front to back on 8:50s and the airplane liked to wander.
 
No - Cub Crafters tips, but flaps in to the fuselage. I had absolutely no problems with roll control. I just did not perceive any advantage over stock wings. I am hoping the gear is tweaked, but it is HD gear, so it could be the fuselage. Makes it kind of wander, but no real problem for an experienced Cub driver.

My experience is that you can feel a toe- in of more than about 5/8", measured front to back on 8:00s. Usually it makes them unstable, but this one feels different. We will try a different set of gear legs.

I only did one landing at semi- sea level - most were at 4000' and higher. The sea level landing was at roughly the same speeds as a stock Cub, and roughly the same rollout. I have not tried it at buffet speeds on approach. That maybe comes later ( I hope).
 
Great thread, just started VG install on my PA-12 with extended wings this past weekend. The tips for avoiding overspray were helpful, and I ended up cutting a hole in the bottom of a plastic solo cup and spraying through it to limit spray pattern.

Also have a question - my templates have me putting two sets of VG's over the left wing landing light lens. Any suggestions as to how to handle? Install instructions state to move them spanwise along the wing, so trying to decide between going with one set right in the middle of the lens, or two sets straddling the lens on either side directly on the wing. Either way seems like it will look odd, so trying to get a feel for what others have done.
 
Well I think everyone agrees that they see a noticeable difference in aileron control at low airspeeds,
The fact they make the plane safer because you absolutely have more aileron control should
Be reason enough to have them, and again there is no doubt they will lower the stall speed of
The wing, however for you to be able to take advantage of that is an interesting subject on its own
Lots of guys soon realize to get them to help you the attitude of nose is in positions that most pilots
Will find uncomfortable, so if your going to shoot a standard old approach, I am going to guess your
Not going to feel they are doing much(and they wont be) Ifyou want to learn how to fly them, and can
Get used to the radical nose high attitude, and coresponding loss of forward visibilty,they most certainly
Will allow the wing to stay flying longer, hence a slower stall speed........ now how practical that is for the avg
50 hr a year pilot is obviously up for speculation? .
Take offs with them installed is another story, its easy to get into an attitude so they will help
You landing, but how the heck do you get them to help you with small angles of attack,
6:00x6 tires as soon as the tail comes up? Floats when your planing on the step?? Your
Certainly not in any such position yet ,where their ability to pin the air down on the top
Of the wing is of any advantage until you can break free of the ground or water so you
Can get a higher angle of attack were they do work. No more than at cruise when they
Basically do nothing............ so in my experence with them (since 1994) is they are good
Things to have, make the plane safer in a crosswind and thru a stall, and I can certainly land
Shorter if I use a unusually high nose attitude and get the plane flying at a slower forward
Momentum. As far as takeoffs are consirned if your running 35" tires you are in the
neighborhood of getting them working in a tail low attitude. If your on 8:00x6 tires or
Wheel skis that use 6:00/8:00x 6 tires or about any standard straight ski with standard 9"/10" pedistal
Height and are on standard lenght gear ; or are on floats, I wouldnt count on VGs cutting your TOs in down by anywhere near some of the unrealistic numbers your going to hear around the coffee shop from the lounge pilots,
However once you get the airplane off the ground, and can pull the nose up ,that is a different story, now
You can make them work! Good Luck with them, there are hundreds of guys that have them that wouldnt
Know if they were on there or not................. but even in that case their airplane is safer because it has
More aileron control, so thats a good thing!

E
 
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Also have a question - my templates have me putting two sets of VG's over the left wing landing light lens. Any suggestions as to how to handle? Install instructions state to move them spanwise along the wing, so trying to decide between going with one set right in the middle of the lens, or two sets straddling the lens on either side directly on the wing. Either way seems like it will look odd, so trying to get a feel for what others have done.

put them on lens where they belong... you are allowed to move them slightly if it gonna span a metal to lens area...

deleting one group would be very bad idea... the pairs are the far apart ones not the ones right next to each other.. so you'd kill one pair off or such...
 
Mike - huge thanks, that was the feedback I needed!

Does anyone have any pictures of their landing light lens with VG's glued on?
put them on lens where they belong... you are allowed to move them slightly if it gonna span a metal to lens area...

deleting one group would be very bad idea... the pairs are the far apart ones not the ones right next to each other.. so you'd kill one pair off or such...
 
I will try to swing by GVL in the next few days and take some close up photos of mine, or stop by for a visit!
 
Many thanks, GeeBee, would love to come up and check out your bird sometime soon.
 
Ok here are your photos!

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GeeBee - huge thanks for the pics, exactly what I needed. Nearly finished with the install, will do the light tomorrow morning. Nice SC by the way. How is it that your VG's are farther aft as you move inboard?
 

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Call me old-fashioned and stupid. But those things are for pussy's I ain't putin em on my pretty wings. Safety factor is just don't pull on the stick so hard. Remember if you want to go up pull back if you want to go down pull some more. So there.
 
I've never seen them staggered on chord either, but I bet GeeBee has a good reason for it. Suspect like anything so the root stalls first and tip / aileron last.
 
I cannot say why they are the way they are gentlemen as I purchased the airplane 36 hours after a Cub Crafters rebuild from a guy who was too big to fly it comfortably. That said, according to the paperwork it is a CubCrafters STC #SA00275SE. It has a tail strake as well. I am sure it is somebody else's design so I will rely upon your expertise. Thanks for the compliment Spyder.
 
BLR has the staggered on the wing, they are bigger than the micro. Micro are all in a straight line on the wing. BLR uses the tail strake, micro uses vg's on the underside of the elevator.

Tom
 
thanks for the answers guys, wish I'd done my homework before I pulled the trigger on the micro's. Finished this morning, waiting on good weather to go fly!
 
Call me old-fashioned and stupid. But those things are for pussy's I ain't putin em on my pretty wings. Safety factor is just don't pull on the stick so hard. Remember if you want to go up pull back if you want to go down pull some more. So there.

Well Don, I might be old fashioned too, but I aint a "pussy", spent some 8 years in a Super Cub below 100 feet all day every day at all airspeeds with Micro's 'down under'. They have a couple of minor pitfalls, but generally make the Cub a much safer handling A/C,, I would recommend them to anyone,, why don't you just try them one day,, you may be surprised???
 
I purchased a set of Micro’s for my smith cub today although I didn’t purchase the installation templates in order to save a couple hundred dollars in the hope someone on this forum could help me with the installation. Can anyone confirm the distance from the leading edge of the wing and the underside for the tail

Thanks ..... Phil
 
Get the templates. They're worth the money. Search here, and you'll find good data on distance from leading edge.
 
What Gordon said, get the templates and directions that have all of the dimensions. I can’t imagine putting on the vgs without the templates. It is the only way to get them positioned properly.
 
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