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Thread: Micro AeroDynamics VG Installation

  1. #41

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    No - Cub Crafters tips, but flaps in to the fuselage. I had absolutely no problems with roll control. I just did not perceive any advantage over stock wings. I am hoping the gear is tweaked, but it is HD gear, so it could be the fuselage. Makes it kind of wander, but no real problem for an experienced Cub driver.

    My experience is that you can feel a toe- in of more than about 5/8", measured front to back on 8:00s. Usually it makes them unstable, but this one feels different. We will try a different set of gear legs.

    I only did one landing at semi- sea level - most were at 4000' and higher. The sea level landing was at roughly the same speeds as a stock Cub, and roughly the same rollout. I have not tried it at buffet speeds on approach. That maybe comes later ( I hope).

  2. #42

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    ..."buffet" speeds... Now, that's descriptive!

  3. #43
    Spyder's Avatar
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    Great thread, just started VG install on my PA-12 with extended wings this past weekend. The tips for avoiding overspray were helpful, and I ended up cutting a hole in the bottom of a plastic solo cup and spraying through it to limit spray pattern.

    Also have a question - my templates have me putting two sets of VG's over the left wing landing light lens. Any suggestions as to how to handle? Install instructions state to move them spanwise along the wing, so trying to decide between going with one set right in the middle of the lens, or two sets straddling the lens on either side directly on the wing. Either way seems like it will look odd, so trying to get a feel for what others have done.

  4. #44
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Well I think everyone agrees that they see a noticeable difference in aileron control at low airspeeds,
    The fact they make the plane safer because you absolutely have more aileron control should
    Be reason enough to have them, and again there is no doubt they will lower the stall speed of
    The wing, however for you to be able to take advantage of that is an interesting subject on its own
    Lots of guys soon realize to get them to help you the attitude of nose is in positions that most pilots
    Will find uncomfortable, so if your going to shoot a standard old approach, I am going to guess your
    Not going to feel they are doing much(and they wont be) Ifyou want to learn how to fly them, and can
    Get used to the radical nose high attitude, and coresponding loss of forward visibilty,they most certainly
    Will allow the wing to stay flying longer, hence a slower stall speed........ now how practical that is for the avg
    50 hr a year pilot is obviously up for speculation? .
    Take offs with them installed is another story, its easy to get into an attitude so they will help
    You landing, but how the heck do you get them to help you with small angles of attack,
    6:00x6 tires as soon as the tail comes up? Floats when your planing on the step?? Your
    Certainly not in any such position yet ,where their ability to pin the air down on the top
    Of the wing is of any advantage until you can break free of the ground or water so you
    Can get a higher angle of attack were they do work. No more than at cruise when they
    Basically do nothing............ so in my experence with them (since 1994) is they are good
    Things to have, make the plane safer in a crosswind and thru a stall, and I can certainly land
    Shorter if I use a unusually high nose attitude and get the plane flying at a slower forward
    Momentum. As far as takeoffs are consirned if your running 35" tires you are in the
    neighborhood of getting them working in a tail low attitude. If your on 8:00x6 tires or
    Wheel skis that use 6:00/8:00x 6 tires or about any standard straight ski with standard 9"/10" pedistal
    Height and are on standard lenght gear ; or are on floats, I wouldnt count on VGs cutting your TOs in down by anywhere near some of the unrealistic numbers your going to hear around the coffee shop from the lounge pilots,
    However once you get the airplane off the ground, and can pull the nose up ,that is a different story, now
    You can make them work! Good Luck with them, there are hundreds of guys that have them that wouldnt
    Know if they were on there or not................. but even in that case their airplane is safer because it has
    More aileron control, so thats a good thing!

    E
    Last edited by TurboBeaver; 03-02-2015 at 03:20 PM.

  5. #45
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyder View Post

    Also have a question - my templates have me putting two sets of VG's over the left wing landing light lens. Any suggestions as to how to handle? Install instructions state to move them spanwise along the wing, so trying to decide between going with one set right in the middle of the lens, or two sets straddling the lens on either side directly on the wing. Either way seems like it will look odd, so trying to get a feel for what others have done.
    put them on lens where they belong... you are allowed to move them slightly if it gonna span a metal to lens area...

    deleting one group would be very bad idea... the pairs are the far apart ones not the ones right next to each other.. so you'd kill one pair off or such...

  6. #46
    Spyder's Avatar
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    Mike - huge thanks, that was the feedback I needed!

    Does anyone have any pictures of their landing light lens with VG's glued on?
    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    put them on lens where they belong... you are allowed to move them slightly if it gonna span a metal to lens area...

    deleting one group would be very bad idea... the pairs are the far apart ones not the ones right next to each other.. so you'd kill one pair off or such...

  7. #47

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    I will try to swing by GVL in the next few days and take some close up photos of mine, or stop by for a visit!

  8. #48
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    Many thanks, GeeBee, would love to come up and check out your bird sometime soon.

  9. #49

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    Ok here are your photos!

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  10. #50
    Spyder's Avatar
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    GeeBee - huge thanks for the pics, exactly what I needed. Nearly finished with the install, will do the light tomorrow morning. Nice SC by the way. How is it that your VG's are farther aft as you move inboard?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #51

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    Call me old-fashioned and stupid. But those things are for pussy's I ain't putin em on my pretty wings. Safety factor is just don't pull on the stick so hard. Remember if you want to go up pull back if you want to go down pull some more. So there.

  12. #52
    irishfield's Avatar
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    I've never seen them staggered on chord either, but I bet GeeBee has a good reason for it. Suspect like anything so the root stalls first and tip / aileron last.

  13. #53
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    Looks like BLR vg's. They are staggered, Micros usually aren't.
    Mike

  14. #54

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    I cannot say why they are the way they are gentlemen as I purchased the airplane 36 hours after a Cub Crafters rebuild from a guy who was too big to fly it comfortably. That said, according to the paperwork it is a CubCrafters STC #SA00275SE. It has a tail strake as well. I am sure it is somebody else's design so I will rely upon your expertise. Thanks for the compliment Spyder.

  15. #55
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    BLR has the staggered on the wing, they are bigger than the micro. Micro are all in a straight line on the wing. BLR uses the tail strake, micro uses vg's on the underside of the elevator.

    Tom

  16. #56
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    thanks for the answers guys, wish I'd done my homework before I pulled the trigger on the micro's. Finished this morning, waiting on good weather to go fly!

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by don d View Post
    Call me old-fashioned and stupid. But those things are for pussy's I ain't putin em on my pretty wings. Safety factor is just don't pull on the stick so hard. Remember if you want to go up pull back if you want to go down pull some more. So there.
    Well Don, I might be old fashioned too, but I aint a "pussy", spent some 8 years in a Super Cub below 100 feet all day every day at all airspeeds with Micro's 'down under'. They have a couple of minor pitfalls, but generally make the Cub a much safer handling A/C,, I would recommend them to anyone,, why don't you just try them one day,, you may be surprised???

  18. #58

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    I purchased a set of Micro’s for my smith cub today although I didn’t purchase the installation templates in order to save a couple hundred dollars in the hope someone on this forum could help me with the installation. Can anyone confirm the distance from the leading edge of the wing and the underside for the tail

    Thanks ..... Phil

  19. #59
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Get the templates. They're worth the money. Search here, and you'll find good data on distance from leading edge.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)
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  20. #60
    phdigger123's Avatar
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    What Gordon said, get the templates and directions that have all of the dimensions. I can’t imagine putting on the vgs without the templates. It is the only way to get them positioned properly.
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  21. #61
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    I’ll second the above - I carefully but easily installed Micros on my PA12-150 with excellent results using the templates. Time savings alone worth it.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
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  22. #62

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    I'm cheaper then you, probably, and bought the complete kit. My time is not worth much, but worth enough to spend that extra money. The performance gain on the low end makes them a bargain at twice the price. One tip, if you used green Poly-Tone on the LE, the stencil adhesive can be tough to get off, put it on lightly, just enough to hold position, and take it back off soonest. My paint was cured 6 months, work installing was in my hangar (not direct sun), and stencil was on for a few hour. The glue transferred to the paint, was a bit+h to get off, without taking the paint with it. Micro was advised of this adverse reaction, with Forest Green p tone, news to them. Done other vg installs, also p tone, but different color, no problem.
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  23. #63

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    VHB tape is a better alternative to the Loctite adhesive for VGs. I like it a lot.
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  24. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    Get the templates. They're worth the money. Search here, and you'll find good data on distance from leading edge.

    I’m sure that’s good advice but my VG’s are already on the way (without the templates)

    There is a PA-12 experimental at my field that has a set of Mirco’s or at least they look like Micro’s and it will be simple to make templates from it. My inquiry was to confirm the mounting distance from the leading edge to the front tip of the VG in order to confirm it is in fact a Micro installation. The owner of the 12 purchased it with the VG’s on it and there is no documentation as to their origin.

    if anyone can provide me with that distance it would be much appreciated. I can manage the rest.


    Thanks.......... Phil

  25. #65
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Take a carpenter's square to the PA-12. Hold long edge against bottom of wing with short vertical against LE. Measure back to VG parallel to bottom line.

    Gary

  26. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Sc View Post
    I’m sure that’s good advice but my VG’s are already on the way (without the templates)

    There is a PA-12 experimental at my field that has a set of Mirco’s or at least they look like Micro’s and it will be simple to make templates from it. My inquiry was to confirm the mounting distance from the leading edge to the front tip of the VG in order to confirm it is in fact a Micro installation. The owner of the 12 purchased it with the VG’s on it and there is no documentation as to their origin.

    if anyone can provide me with that distance it would be much appreciated. I can manage the rest.


    Thanks.......... Phil
    Micro Aire will appreciate you absolving them from any liability by using your own installation. Call them for the templates. If your time is worth anything it will be worth it having the templates. You can see I used templates on my installation. Others have said to use templates. This is the second time I said to use templates. You are banking on the PA-12 having a correct installation. How can you be sure?
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  27. #67
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    My 2c is that it is more important for the VGs to be in the same position on each wing than in whatever distance is used from the leading edge. This will prevent one wing from dropping out from under you in a critical situation.

    For example long ago when the Cal Center leading edges were all the rage a fellow didn't have time to install the second one before going on a trip out in the boonies. He found himself in a situation where one wing stalled resulting in he not coming down for breakfast anymore.
    N1PA
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  28. #68

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    Geez, guys, it’s an experimental Cub. Lots of guys have bought VGs and experimented with the best location. Most of us choose to pay to use somebody else’s testing and template as a convenience but I know guys who move them around to see what they think works best. Phil asked the standard template distance from the LE. If I could remember it I’d tell him. In his shoes if I had access to a standard category Cub with VGs I’d measure and try to duplicate it.

  29. #69
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    N1PA

  30. #70
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    I have stayed out of the pissin" contest about whether they work or not. Those that say they don't are not getting the most out of there machine. They work. As to where they are located, we have done quite a few in this area and IMHO they should be put on with the patterns or don't put them on. Do it right or don't do it at all: just not worth it. Why try to re-invent a wheel that works? The best improvement has been determined to be in a precise location because that's where they belong. Drag me through the mud if you like; "my skin don't leak"

  31. #71
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Kinda hard to give a measurement of where to mount the VGs on the wing. There is a simple tool and the templates that locate the angles, distance from each other and back of the front of the wing. I don't know how you would tell someone that.
    Steve Pierce

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  32. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Kinda hard to give a measurement of where to mount the VGs on the wing. There is a simple tool and the templates that locate the angles, distance from each other and back of the front of the wing. I don't know how you would tell someone that.

    If you put a square on the leading edge with the long side flat on the bottom of the wing I’m looking for the measurement where the square touches the leading edge to the front of the VG. Put a string on the point where the square touches the leading edge to the front tip of the VG and measure the string.

    That is the only measure I am unsure of.
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  33. #73
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    I’m a big fan of VG’s, had an engine failure in a Pacer and believe they made a difference on the outcome of the crash.
    I’ve installed them on several airplanes from Bonanza to my starDuster. The StarDuster had them on it when I got it , wrecked. The bottom wings were smashed in so I had to rebuild them and reinstall the VG’s. This may help the op without the templates. I used the formula that has been posted and found my numbers put them a 1 1/2” further forward. I put a chalk line on the wing for both positions. Then looking from the tip to root blocked the wing increasing the angle of attack and found the further back placement took the VG’s out of the slip stream too early. I installed on the forward line and the plane stalls very gentle below 50mph. The original installer made notes in the paperwork he didn’t feel the did anything. So I’m not sure if it really helped but the stall #’s in the paperwork I’m stalling 3-4 MPH slower and very stable.
    Thanks super stol thanked for this post

  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Sc View Post
    If you put a square on the leading edge with the long side flat on the bottom of the wing I’m looking for the measurement where the square touches the leading edge to the front of the VG. Put a string on the point where the square touches the leading edge to the front tip of the VG and measure the string.

    That is the only measure I am unsure of.
    With a square you get all you need for info off the other plane. Up the vertical leg and back to the wing are the distances you are looking for off the inch marks on the square. Just make sure the up and back is measured with another ruler that's parallel with the bottom leg under the wing.

    However I understand Micro and CC support sites and they deserve your business to keep it safe per their STC. I've done four sets for my planes and have prints but won't offer up the info like others here out of respect for their business. Maybe you figured that out by now? But measure away and figure it out on your own.

    Gary
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  35. #75

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    Charles White, back when he ran Micro, made me a dealer for the exp crowd at one point, after I called him and bitched about them only being (at that time) offered for certified planes, with the attendant certification/paperwork costs rolled into the price. He saw the logic of expanding his customer base, though at a lower price, and presto, I got them "cheap" and was a dealer for them. I sold about 30+ sets of them.

    We had the same issue, once we knew where to put them, how to describe to others where that point was. Assuming the forward lift strut was in always the same place relative to the LE, I used a soft tape measure, like a seamstress uses, butted into the lift strut bracket, and laid it around the LE to the forward edge of the VG line. Using a framing square, on the not exactly flat bottom surface of the RANS S-7 wing, was problematic, the strut bracket soft tape method was easy to describe over the phone, with not much room for error. Whether or not a fraction of an inch placement makes any difference in how well they work, I doubt it, but with the results I got on my initial S-7 install (very favorable) I wanted to duplicate that as much as possible. BTW, I have never painted mine, they look pretty cool when they catch the sun just right and stand out from the wing, I like that for some reason.

  36. #76

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    Maybe he should explore why different mfgrs place VGs in different places. Maybe one size doesn't fit all. I never recognized much benefit from adding VGs on my -12. The benefit was undeniable on the Cessna. Both pireps generally go against VG rhetoric for those types. When considering VGs on the Wildcat I asked a couple of experts familiar with slats and was told to buy the template from Backcountry since they already had the ideal slat-VG relationship figured out. Their VGs are bigger, too. Maybe that's better than the exp VGs I can get for a fraction of the price. Too late now. I may go a different route next time.

    If you keep your certified Cub's Micro templates and find yourself with an exp Cub and want to add VGs do you buy new templates? If you're doing two exp planes side by side do you buy two templates?

  37. #77

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    What 3m vhb tape are people using? 060, 110 or 160. The description states permanent but Can you remove the vg when i slip brushing snow off the wings and damage several vg’s?

    https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-...94857497&rt=r3

  38. #78

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    From the very unscientific method of looking at the 3M site and picking the one that looks like what I used? 4910 looks like what I have. They say the tape is acrylic foam but mine is as clear as water. it's pliable enough to allow a little give but if I keep pushing against the bond it will ultimately release. I think this is a better VG adhesive than the unforgiving Loctite activated glue or the Super Glue most of use when that pops loose.

    I taped a few feet of VHB to my counter sticky side up. I applied my VGs as crowded together as i could and then cut them free using an Xacto knife on a cutting board. Putting them on the wing was easy and there was no hurry. Pull the backing, set in place lightly, adjust if necessary, and then push them down tight. The tape conforms to irregularities like LE screw heads under the fabric, tape edges, etc. I avoided the domes of the screw heads themselves but around the screw edges is no problem.
    Last edited by stewartb; 09-23-2019 at 10:31 AM.
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  39. #79

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    IF I ever had to remove one of the Micro's, short of using a cold chisel and a hammer, I'd try judicious amounts of heat. That Micro supplied glue is almost too good, I like the sticky tape concept. I sure don't worry about losing any though!

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