Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 79

Thread: Micro AeroDynamics VG Installation

  1. #1
    phdigger123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Cottage Grove, Mn
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like

    Micro AeroDynamics VG Installation

    I am probably just about the last person on this site to install a set of VG's on my Super Cub, but I learned a couple of things during the installation that I would like to share. First of all, I was extremely impressed with the quality of the VG kit. It contained just about everything needed to install the VG's. It is a high quality kit.

    The first thing I learned was that the templates are quite floppy and stretchy when they are pulled off of the backing sheet. The floppiness makes it difficult to get the template into position without a few wrinkles and some minor re-positioning to get things right. I found that if you placed a strip of wide masking tape across the template it was much easier to get into position without wrinkles on the first try, and it saved a lot of time.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0506.JPG 
Views:	125 
Size:	1.68 MB 
ID:	16821Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0507.JPG 
Views:	130 
Size:	1.80 MB 
ID:	16822

    The second thing I discovered was that when the activator was sprayed on, a lot of overspray went onto the fabric. To eliminate this I ran a wide strip of masking tape along both sides of the template before applying the activator. This eliminated the cleanup of activator on the fabric.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0516.jpg 
Views:	121 
Size:	565.4 KB 
ID:	16823

    The next thing I discovered is "The bigger the glob, the better the job" does not apply to the adhesive application! Excess adhesive that squeezes out around the VG only makes a bigger mess to clean up. Also, the stick end of the clean up swabs works very well to spread the adhesive evenly on the bottom of the VG.

    The final thing I would suggest is to apply 6 VG's and remove the templates from the first 4. Add 4 more VG's and remove the template from 4. This allows the glue to set adequately to hold the VG's in place, but still allows the templates to be removed easily.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0519.JPG 
Views:	123 
Size:	1.75 MB 
ID:	16824

    Now, if my head cold will go away and the skies clear up, I can go see how well they work!
    Likes Steve Pierce liked this post

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Lake Hood
    Posts
    178
    Post Thanks / Like
    Yep easy to install

    my only problem is after I took the template off-it left a residue of the template on the wing--they gave me a suggestion of cleaner but that just removed the paint--now after a couple years it looks like a faded dirty residue of a template---bummer on a new wing

    i know it's not common but I did my tail feathers first and no issues--just my one experience

  3. #3
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    18,651
    Post Thanks / Like
    Good info. I use a piece of masking paper with holes cut in it to block the overspray from getting on the fabric. I use the xacto knife to cut around the VG prior to removing the template because sometimes I don't get them perfectly placed. I try and clean the glue around the base of the VG with the Q tips and alcohol after I have glued several on so i don't end up with a yellow edge.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  4. #4
    Fat Kid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Nome
    Posts
    91
    Post Thanks / Like
    Its worth the extra money to purchase the VG's already painted to the color you want and to avoid the activator over spray mess I spray the activator into a small cup and apply the activator to the wing with a cotton swab.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Posts
    212
    Post Thanks / Like
    What I remember about my installation is that the directions were the best I have seen on anything I have worked with lately.
    60below

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    24
    Post Thanks / Like
    Try Citrol, a biodegradable cleaner, I've used it on different types of residue, oil, glue, hands etc. with no issues.

  7. #7
    Mauleguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    654
    Post Thanks / Like
    I have always sent the vg's out for anodize, I like the look and no painting required. The kit has always worked well for me right out of the box with no issues. Great kit!

  8. #8
    5191H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    90
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks for the timely post, I will be starting the install on my 14 this week and appreciate the tips.
    14 fan

  9. #9
    phdigger123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Cottage Grove, Mn
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like
    I finally had some time to get up and explore the difference the VGs made in flight characteristics. I found it very difficult to get a spin entry to the right. I could get a spin entry to the left, but it was quite aggressive, not something that a person would accidently do.

    I tried to get a moose stall. I don't know if I did it right. I used about 1800 RPM, decent bank to the left, and full left rudder. The airspeed was down below the white arc and the plane felt solid. It did not stall.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKy2Z...m-upload_owner

    Opinion only on how my Cub performed. Don't try this stuff close to the ground!

  10. #10
    SC3CM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    658
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mine only took a few minutes to paint. All I did was stick them to some double sided tape, stuck to the top of a box I had cut off and I set in the same box which I had turned on its side. Sprayed, turned the cardboard around did the other side, waited, sprayed one more time and was done once it dried.

  11. #11
    cubdriver2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    upstate NY
    Posts
    9,795
    Post Thanks / Like
    Most stock cubs I've flown without VGs won't spin from a stall with a low power setting, unless I help it with rudder. Did anybody ask Bob Barrows why he decided not to put VGs on his LSA hotrod?

    Glenn

  12. #12
    Tim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Petersburgh, NY
    Posts
    3,469
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Most stock cubs I've flown without VGs won't spin from a stall with a low power setting, unless I help it with rudder. Did anybody ask Bob Barrows why he decided not to put VGs on his LSA hotrod?

    Glenn
    I did. He said they didn't make any difference in stall speed, but cut 2 or 3 mph in cruise speed. He said it was the airfoil.
    Last edited by Tim; 10-16-2014 at 08:35 PM.

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    6,735
    Post Thanks / Like
    I guess Bob and I are just about the only people who do not think VGs reduce stall speed significantly. One of my buddies claimed a 15 knot stall speed reduction on a P210 the other day.

    I can buy two or three knots, but I have not seen dramatic performance changes in Cubs from mods other than Borer Props and big engines. When CC restricts flaps to 35 degrees, I see a change, but I always reset them to 50 degrees.

    On the spin - a good Cub ought not to spin with the ball in the center. I have found they will fly just fine fully stalled - they just shudder q bit.

  14. #14
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    9,287
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I guess Bob and I are just about the only people who do not think VGs reduce stall speed significantly. One of my buddies claimed a 15 knot stall speed reduction on a P210 the other day.

    I can buy two or three knots, but I have not seen dramatic performance changes in Cubs from mods other than Borer Props and big engines. When CC restricts flaps to 35 degrees, I see a change, but I always reset them to 50 degrees.

    On the spin - a good Cub ought not to spin with the ball in the center. I have found they will fly just fine fully stalled - they just shudder q bit.
    Me three.

    My Cub will not spin unless the CG is near the aft limit.
    N1PA

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    4,552
    Post Thanks / Like
    The only guys I know of who don't sing the praises of VGs are guys who don't fly their airplanes slow enough often enough to recognize the advantages. It isn't about going to altitude and measuring stall speed, it's about slow loitering and slow approaches where any small improvement is a big deal.

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    6,735
    Post Thanks / Like
    I shoot several approaches a day at speeds where further aft movement of the stick produces a down movement of the nose. Cannot fly any slower than that. When we put Micros on the Sportsman cuff, I actually felt less comfortable at very slow speeds.

  17. #17
    dalec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Anchorage and beyond
    Posts
    529
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    The only guys I know of who don't sing the praises of VGs are guys who don't fly their airplanes slow enough often enough to recognize the advantages. It isn't about going to altitude and measuring stall speed, it's about slow loitering and slow approaches where any small improvement is a big deal.
    Stewart

    I am in agreement with you on this one. It made a positive difference in the low speed control ability of my cub when installed.

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5
    Post Thanks / Like
    Anything wrong with applying before last coat (aero thane) Kit says the vg's are already alodined? Also, what was the consistency of the glue? Mine looked like half cured silicone, but seemed to bond well.

  19. #19

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    4,552
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by dalec View Post
    Stewart

    I am in agreement with you on this one. It made a positive difference in the low speed control ability of my cub when installed.
    Dale,

    They're well worth the $1200 to put them on the Cessna, too.

    SB

  20. #20
    dalec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Anchorage and beyond
    Posts
    529
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Dale,

    They're well worth the $1200 to put them on the Cessna, too.

    SB
    Stewart

    They will be going on when the plane goes in for paint in February.

    Dale

  21. #21
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,333
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    The only guys I know of who don't sing the praises of VGs are guys who don't fly their airplanes slow enough often enough to recognize the advantages. ...
    exactly!!! or the guys who don't know how to slow the plane & yet try to spot land before they slowed it down...

  22. #22
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts
    2,524
    Post Thanks / Like
    Easy way to paint VGs with double stick tape on paint paddles. Easy to hang onto the free end and wave around to paint all sides then just set the paddles down to dry.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1070017.JPG 
Views:	42 
Size:	994.3 KB 
ID:	17414
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1070018.JPG 
Views:	42 
Size:	989.7 KB 
ID:	17415
    Last edited by Darrel Starr; 10-17-2014 at 09:22 PM.

  23. #23

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    4,552
    Post Thanks / Like
    There are lots of ways to stick them down to paint them. I wouldn't like painting the wings with VGs attached. That's like having 40 little run makers and there's no advantage to warrant the risk. Maybe the good painters disagree. How much time are you allowing between coats? I don't think the first coat could be cured enough to apply VGs.

    Bob, when you're slow enough that the plane drops when you pull on the yoke, add some power and raise the nose some more. The VGs will help you stay in control and you'll find your speed will be reduced. Jerry Burr and Denny Martel opened my eyes to that technique. The slat guys have taken it a few steps further but for those of us without slats, VGs serve us well. If the winds are squirrelly and you prefer to keep the nose down, no problem. They don't interfere but when conditions favor slower flight with power on they sure seem to help.
    Last edited by stewartb; 10-18-2014 at 11:30 AM.

  24. #24
    cubdriver2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    upstate NY
    Posts
    9,795
    Post Thanks / Like
    I think that VGs work but I'm too cheap to find out. And I'm EX so it would only be a couple hundred to find out. I've flown a couple Top Cubs with both std and extended wings and I'm still on the fence. I come over 60 ' trees and no flaps and can do 3 to 400' with out brakes so how are VGs going to help? And then theres the whole snow on the wing thing, how do I throw a blanket over the wing tip and saw the snow off of the top of the wing?

    Glenn

  25. #25
    BES's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Esbjerg, Denmark
    Posts
    445
    Post Thanks / Like
    The VGs seem to make the ailerons retain a 'crisp' feeling at much slower speeds. In the PA-12, with full flaps, it feels comfortable to fly at 35 knots on the approach to short strips.
    The Loctite 303 adhesive activator is available in small glass bottles with a brush attached to the lid, like nail polish bottles. It is much easier to use than the sprays in that the activator only goes where you want it to go.
    It has been a nice experience to install the VGs. The kit is the most complete and with the best instructions I have ever come across.

  26. #26

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    nd
    Posts
    3,212
    Post Thanks / Like

  27. #27

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    don
    Posts
    698
    Post Thanks / Like
    Vg's are for girley men.

  28. #28

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    269
    Post Thanks / Like
    Excellent video illustration of VGs.
    Purty scary hearing 85 knots with flaps down tho.

  29. #29
    cubdriver2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    upstate NY
    Posts
    9,795
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by don d View Post
    Vg's are for girley men.
    Ha, it's all starting to make sense now

    Glenn

  30. #30

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    269
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by don d View Post
    Vg's are for girley men.
    Be a real man and take the fabric offa your wings.

  31. #31
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    9,287
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ER Upgrade View Post
    Excellent video illustration of VGs.
    Purty scary hearing 85 knots with flaps down tho.
    This is a tapered, low drag airfoil, high aspect ratio wing. Let's see a similar video done on a Cub wing.
    N1PA

  32. #32

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    269
    Post Thanks / Like
    Excellent demonstration regardless if you do/don't like em/believe in em.

  33. #33

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    4,552
    Post Thanks / Like
    10-11 years ago VGs were a hot topic on this site and we had the opportunity to learn the whats and whys from Jerry Burr, who at that time even provided videos of his flight tests. The high points of my memory of those threads is that BLR/CubCrafters VGs were only helpful for power off ops. Micros were most beneficial at high AOA. The best opportunity to fly high AOA is power on or at high rates of descent at minimum speed. I've searched the site and can't access Mr. Burr's old video posts. I can find some old threads but if a guy wants to review, or in Skywagon8a's case, review AGAIN... , here's a good thread to read. Jerry Burr never made any claims or offered any advice about VGs on any wing other than a Cub. At least that I've seen. And I've looked.

    http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...rating-weights
    Last edited by stewartb; 10-19-2014 at 12:23 PM.

  34. #34
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts
    2,524
    Post Thanks / Like
    Before VGs, I used up over 400 ft of the 5000 ft paved runway at Anoka County Airport. But now with VGs I consistently land under 250 ft. Yes, I feel much safer now and less concerned about overrunning into the bush. What a relief!

  35. #35
    phdigger123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Cottage Grove, Mn
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    On the spin - a good Cub ought not to spin with the ball in the center. I have found they will fly just fine fully stalled - they just shudder q bit.
    Bob, I couldn't agree with you more. The key with what you said is with the ball in the middle. That was not the point of the video I posted. I had on power and full rudder and could hardly make is spin. The spin to the left was a very aggressive entry. The VG's definitely make a Cub more difficult to spin. And that is not a bad thing. Without question low speed flight safer.

    Mike

  36. #36

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    4,552
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrel Starr View Post
    Before VGs, I used up over 400 ft of the 5000 ft paved runway at Anoka County Airport. But now with VGs I consistently land under 250 ft. Yes, I feel much safer now and less concerned about overrunning into the bush. What a relief!
    Now that's funny!

  37. #37
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,774
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    I think that VGs work but I'm too cheap to find out. And I'm EX so it would only be a couple hundred to find out. I've flown a couple Top Cubs with both std and extended wings and I'm still on the fence. I come over 60 ' trees and no flaps and can do 3 to 400' with out brakes so how are VGs going to help? And then theres the whole snow on the wing thing, how do I throw a blanket over the wing tip and saw the snow off of the top of the wing?

    Glenn
    Glenn, mine with no flaps pulled, the roll control is still there, crisp, at about stall. Yours was a little mushy in comparison. I don't know if it would change your stall speed but it would probably crispin up the ailerons. But then again when you get slow use the rudders, right? I haven't flown a cub before and after with Vg's.

  38. #38
    supercrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Smith Pond near Millinocket, Me
    Posts
    299
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mine have been on for 16 yrs. and I love them. Flew it with and without them the same day and I ended up with about a 4 mph decrease in stall speed. That was on floats and is roughly a 10% decrease; at least on this aircraft with the cub airfoil. Don't know how others make out, but it improved aileron control right through the stall on my aircraft, and I like that. Reid

  39. #39

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    6,735
    Post Thanks / Like
    4 mph I can buy. Many posters claim 15 mph decrease. Jerry Burr did not claim that much, ever. I just spent 20 hours in a Cub with extended flaps, extended wings, and Micro VGs, and I think I prefer the stock wing. What I want is landing gear without toe-in. We had 7/8" toe-in measured front to back on 8:50s and the airplane liked to wander.

  40. #40
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    18,651
    Post Thanks / Like
    Bob, ailerons moved out to the tips? Whose gear was toed in so much or is it old tweaked gear?
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

Similar Threads

  1. Aerodynamics 101
    By Roger Peterson in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-24-2013, 07:11 PM
  2. A 201. Aerodynamics....wing washout
    By Dave Calkins in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 10-01-2006, 11:41 AM
  3. Illustrated Guide to Aerodynamics
    By rrb in forum The Art and Science of Flying
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 09-01-2005, 09:30 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •