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Protect the cam

skukum12

skukum12

MEMBER
The Last Frontier
1007.jpg

Went in for 160 pistions, came away with a major. A couple lobes went flat, mechanic said the valves were partially sticking. Sooo, 11 hours smoh, I wish to prolong engine health. Shall I start the MMO now, or is it too soon? How about a cam additive? Too soon? Which brand?

The Camguard rep at Oshkosh said there never was any zinc additive in oils for cam protection, what's the truth here?
 

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Best thing to do is fly regularly. However, if the engine is going to sit periodically, Cam Guard seems to be a good additive to keep the cam followers from going dry and corroding, which is what spauls the cam.

I've seen this in a bunch of Lycomings after sitting for a while. I started running Cam Guard in both of my planes recently, so don't have any long term use results.

MMO seems to help soften lead deposits which will help prevent sticking valves. While I'm sure it occasionally happens to Lycomings, I've only really seen hung valves regularly in the small Continentals. To the best of my knowledge, that's not been a chronic recurring issue with Lycoming engines.

-Cub Builder
 
I would fly the hell out of it with break in oil till it's broken in (oil consumption stable, CHTs settled down, etc....30 to 50 hrs or sometimes less). THEN start using Cam Guard regularly with your oil of choice.

i would not use Cam Guard during break in.

Cam Guard is the real deal. Forget Marvel....it may do other things for your engine, but it's not going to do much to protect that cam.

MTV
 
On the bottle (Cam Gaurd) it specifically cautions against using the product until the engine is fully run-in. Because its such a good lubricant it prevents the cylinder walls and rings from lapping together and oil consumption will likely be an issue. Like Mike V. says, run the piss out of it for the first 30 or 40 hours. Long full throttle cruise climbs are good followed by prolonged high power cruise. Touch and goes are NOT your friend. It'll burn a lot of gas but thats a cheap trade-off for a tight healthy engine.
 
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My dad, who was an engineer for Mobil, in the days when detergent was just being added to oils, said that the best motor oils had most of it's molecules at the specified viscosity, but also contained a mixture of molecules that were very short, so as to act as penetrating oil, and very long, so as to act as a motor honey, and not drain off of cams and cylinder walls. In those days, STP also had a lot of zinc (dialkyldithiophosphate, [ZDD]) in it, and we didn't have catalytic converters to burn out, STP thus has a lot less zinc in it, these days, which can be problematic for air cooled engines, though I had a friend who ran several O-470's through to overhaul with almost no wear on full strength STP in the oil. My thinking is, that a little STP, or generic motor honey, would be helpful in aircraft engines...(and, some MMO).but, don't quote me....I'm leaving for Zeta Reticuli in the morning....


*Although, if you are running a multi-vis oil, you have a thin oil, (the lower number) mixed with motor honey...already....

*What oils seem to NOT have in them, are enough anti-oxidents....which is where Cam-Guard comes in.....
 
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skukum12 said:
View attachment 16730

Went in for 160 pistions, came away with a major. A couple lobes went flat, mechanic said the valves were partially sticking. Sooo, 11 hours smoh, I wish to prolong engine health. Shall I start the MMO now, or is it too soon? How about a cam additive? Too soon? Which brand?

The Camguard rep at Oshkosh said there never was any zinc additive in oils for cam protection, what's the truth here?
Click to expand...

Skukum

Can you give us some more details? How did you break in the engine? How much time did this engine sit vs. flying?

I'm WAY out of my comfort zone here, but I can pass along what I was told. Bob, former owner of BJ's Custom Engines, here in the valley, told me the best thing to do when first starting an engine with fresh overhaul/top end, was to make sure to pre oil it, start it up, and get the RPMs up as soon as oil pressure shows on the gauge. NEVER let it idle before it's broke in. This accomplishes a couple of important things. First it insures that the lubrication is at the bearings when the engine starts. Second, it work hardens the surface of the lifters and cam lobes. He told me that the best way to treat the engine would be to start it this way. for a few minutes, in order to do a leak check, then tow the airplane to the end of the strip. Start it up and take off as soon as you see oil pressure. As others have pointed out, keep the air flowing over the cylinders.

I know the 'start and run hard' procedure is pretty standard for the car guys. And for the same reasons. Maybe they learned it from airplane guys, in the past, and now we need to relearn it back from them?

As a couple of others have pointed out, Lycomings seem to be prone to cam and lifter corrosion. Obviously the best thing for that is to fly regularly. If you can't, might have to look into some anti corrosion treatments that fit the enviroment that the engine is stored in.

Wow! I need to get back to the electrical stuff. I feel like I just walked into a mosque with a ham sandwich, lol.

Web
 
I have about 11 hours on the breakin now. Temps have stabilized and oil consumption seems to be zilch. Ran it over 2550 first flight for an hour. The other hours have all been over 2400 and mostly 2500 rpm or better in cruise. NO touch and gos, absolutely not. Run it hard. So it would seem I should wait until after 50 or more hours to toss in an additive such as camguard, sounds very reasonable.

As a side note, I work a three week on, three week off schedule. So she shall be sitting idle for bits of time. However she gets flown hard on my RnR.

A second side note, I am very pleased that the fuel consumption of the 160 is very comparable to the 150 thus far.
 
Pacerfgoe said:
Doesn't Aeroshell w100plus have the camgard in it already? Use that after breakin.....
Click to expand...

... check this out Pacerfgoe. From the shell.com homepage - products & services ...

AeroShell Oil W100 Plus and W80 Plus already contain the Lycoming additive LW 16702 in the correct proportions and meets Lycoming requirements as well as the US Federal Aviation Authority Airworthiness directive 80-04-03.
 
Wire

I may have misread your question. The teardown motor had about 1000 hours. It came to me with about 200 back in 1998, so I didnt break it in. One major issue that may have seriously contributed to the finality of this cam is the motor sat for two years ('12/'13) without preservative. I must note that before it sat however, it was being flown regularly and was developing less and less power back then.
 
skukum12 said:
A second side note, I am very pleased that the fuel consumption of the 160 is very comparable to the 150 thus far.
Click to expand...

My experience is that the 160 burns less fuel than a 150. The 160 is the same engine with higher compression so it is more efficient. It will take less manifold pressure to get the same RPM with a 160.
 
skukum12 said:
Wire

I may have misread your question. The teardown motor had about 1000 hours. It came to me with about 200 back in 1998, so I didnt break it in. One major issue that may have seriously contributed to the finality of this cam is the motor sat for two years ('12/'13) without preservative. I must note that before it sat however, it was being flown regularly and was developing less and less power back then.
Click to expand...


Did you get to see the inside of the engine after sitting for the two seasons? Any idea how much corrosion going on? Even with a good break in and regular use, parking an engine like that is just asking for corrosion to start. Assuming that little was done in the way of 'pickling' the engine for that time.

Web
 
TirolCub said:
... check this out Pacerfgoe. From the shell.com homepage - products & services ...

AeroShell Oil W100 Plus and W80 Plus already contain the Lycoming additive LW 16702 in the correct proportions and meets Lycoming requirements as well as the US Federal Aviation Authority Airworthiness directive 80-04-03.
Click to expand...

its hard to believe that pilots still get this confused. Camguard is an aftermarket additive whose benefits are well documented on their website. The stuff Aeroshell adds is the anti-scuff lubricant that Lycoming specifies for some engines. Anti scuff and Camguard are not the same.
 
The followers were badly pitted, I was told because the valves were partially sticking. I am not an engine guru so I am still turning this one over in my mind.
 
Pitting is from surface rust. Spalling is the redistribution of metal from friction, which occurs after pitting compromises the surfaces.
 
I have done a lot of prop strike inspections and maintain several airplanes. I personally believe in frequent oil changes and Camguard. Have read, researched and spent hours discussing these things with the developer of Camguard along with my Dad who is a retired mechanical engineer for a division of Cummins engine company called Diesel ReCon who rebuilt Cummins engines. You can't BS my Dad with snake oil. Sitting in on the conversations between him and Ed (Camguard developer) I am assured it does what it claims even though a lot of the conversation went over my head. 8)
 
Stewartb is right, pitting is from corrosion. Stuck valves can cause other problems. But once the pitting starts, on the followers or the cam, bad things will follow. Sitting for three weeks shouldn't be cause for alarm. I do cringe at owners leaving their engines all winter without some kind of preservation. Short term preservation is fairly easy to accomplish and easy to clear out when you need to fly. The key is to keep the corrosion from starting.

Web
 
I missed my point on the prop strike inspections, usually don't find any issues from the prop strike but do tend to find a lot of issues do to corrosion.
 
stewartb said:
Pitting is from surface rust. Spalling is the redistribution of metal from friction, which occurs after pitting compromises the surfaces.
Click to expand...

Spauling is the term i should have used for the condition of the followers. I have a picture of the followers somewhere that i will post.
 
Oh how true you are Gordon. Wouldn't wish my teenage years on anyone. Just hope I don't pay for my raising with Lee.
 
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Continental-Motors-to-Evaluate-CamGuard222723-1.html

Continental Motors Services (CMS)—a division of Continental Motors Group—announced Thursday that it has entered into an agreement with Aircraft Specialties Lubricants (ASL) to jointly evaluate the claimed benefits of ASL’s CamGuard, an aviation oil additive. The evaluation program will be on engines overhauled or repaired by CMS (formerly Mattituck) to “demonstrate merits of pairing the latest lubricant technology with current engine technology.” According to CMS and ASL, they are seeking to show that CamGuard reduces maintenance, lowers overall operating costs and improves engine longevity. CamGuard has been FAA-approved as an engine additive, although the FAA approval process only demonstrates that it does no harm. Tests reported in Aviation Consumermagazine showed benefits in engine corrosion resistance and modest anti-wear improvement. General aviation professional aircraft management company Savvy Aircraft Maintenance Management recommends CamGuard use by its clients.
“We believe the program could potentially benefit current and future customers by demonstrating and documenting the attributes of the CamGuard additive product,” stated Bill Ross, Director of Product Support and Continental Motors Services. “In general, lubricant technology in aviation has not kept pace with other transportation industries. If this program can demonstrate conclusively the positive benefits of oil additive technology found in CamGuard, it could change the way engine manufacturers deal with oil product specifications.” The evaluation period runs concurrently with the 18-month warranty period offered on CMS overhauled or repaired engines. The standard warranty remains fully in effect during this evaluation. CamGuard will be made available to the participants for the duration of the evaluation. Participants will be asked to follow a specific break-in and maintenance schedule, which is similar to existing guidance. Participants will provide an oil sample at each oil change for analysis. A small number of participants may be requested to have their engines undergo “enhanced” inspections, during routine service at no additional cost.
Click to expand...
 
So you guys who have mucho experience, if you found a little corrosion on the top face of the top ring at either side of the ring gap in a Lycoming cylinder, would you expect to see corrosion on the cam? VO435A1F, chrome rings in nitrided Lycoming cylinders, 500 plus hours since the cam and cylinders were new in 1996, no mention of Camguard in the records, only 15W40 Aeroshell, and short straight 3 into one exhausts. I'm hoping this cylinder had an exhaust valve open more than once during periods of inactivity but I just have a terrible feeling this engine is not well and I'm missing it. I tried to get a picture but it just didn't work for me. Oh, I pulled the cylinder for zero compression. Found the exhaust guide extremely worn-like 3/16" valve wobble. The other 5 were 77 or better. jrh
 
The Big Boys are always last to get on the band wagon. ;)

I have seen isolated corrosion on cylinders, crank shafts etc and not on the cam. Tore down a 1600 hr. O-320 for a prop strike on Monday that flies 300 hours a year and uses Cam Guard, no corrosion.
 
N86250 said:
So you guys who have mucho experience, if you found a little corrosion on the top face of the top ring at either side of the ring gap in a Lycoming cylinder, would you expect to see corrosion on the cam?...
Click to expand...

doesn't mater....

if the cam has a lobe going flat you will see a fine metallic "powder" when you rinse and DRY(wet might fake stick to magnet) contents of oil screen in a paper towel.... provided it didn't go before you started checking screen...

pitting on a cam will not affect performance until it gets through surface hardened layer, then starts to flatten the lobe, and you start losing some power.....
 
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N86250 said:
So you guys who have mucho experience, if you found a little corrosion on the top face of the top ring at either side of the ring gap in a Lycoming cylinder, would you expect to see corrosion on the cam? VO435A1F, chrome rings in nitrided Lycoming cylinders, 500 plus hours since the cam and cylinders were new in 1996, no mention of Camguard in the records, only 15W40 Aeroshell, and short straight 3 into one exhausts. I'm hoping this cylinder had an exhaust valve open more than once during periods of inactivity but I just have a terrible feeling this engine is not well and I'm missing it. I tried to get a picture but it just didn't work for me. Oh, I pulled the cylinder for zero compression. Found the exhaust guide extremely worn-like 3/16" valve wobble. The other 5 were 77 or better. jrh
Click to expand...

If you had a cylinder off you should have had a clear view of two cam lobes. What did you see?
 
Steve, Mike, and Stewartb, thank you for the replies. After wrestling the cylinder off I was tired, discouraged, and too dumb to look at the cam. I had never seen a corroded piston ring or a valve guide that worn. I'll look during the next visit next week. jrh
 
Has anyone used AVBLEND? Its been recommended to me. I really don't know much about it other than what I've read on there adv. Is there a difference between it and Camguard?
 
From researching Ave lend I discovered that it is a solvent. Lyons adds it to the break-in oil but not sure about the science behind it.
 
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