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Thread: ADS-B Mandate

  1. #81
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndill View Post
    One other thing what happens when everything is space based. Yes GPS is spaced based but we still have VORs, as soon as the mandate goes into effect you know they'll be shutting down the VORs as fast as they can to save money. Which brings me to George Clooney's line in the movie Gravity. "Well it looks like half of North America just lost it's Facebook". I think a lot of people need to brush up on their pilotage skills.
    Not to be cynical but when has the government made an honest attempt "to save money"? They shift the expense elsewhere and mandate that it comes out of the other pocket.
    N1PA

  2. #82
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    One "feature" of ADS-B is that it depends on 600 (soon to be 800) ground stations that are "line-of-sight". Not a problem for most airplanes going somewhere at altitude. But will it be useful to those of us running round 1000-1500 ft above the ground? My guess is that it will be nearly useless in many areas where the plane is not in "line-of-sight" of an ADS-B tower. Could be wrong, since it seems to work in Alaska.

  3. #83
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Darrel, It has been my understanding that part of this system being able to work efficiently is that, with all planes equipped, they will communicate among themselves without going through the towers first. I believe that is how the original Capstone system worked in Alaska.
    N1PA

  4. #84
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    For those that are equipped it is line of sight between the planes for direct traffic info. For those using a transponder, Center has to see the transponder, then your position, heading, altitude, etc gets broadcast back out from the ADS-B tower. Transponder equipped aircraft drop off my display a lot. Weather data comes only from the ADS-B tower, which is effectively line of sight. The range on the ADS-B broadcast to a plane flying low (or on the ground) is about the same distance as your TV reception from a broadcast tower, for those that can remember broadcast TV. Works fine if you're close to the tower. Works OK at 50 miles. Works not so good if you're down low further from the tower than 50 miles. Distance improves somewhat in the flat lands.

    -Cub Builder

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    I think this article gives a pretty good explanation of what you can expect if you are using an ads-b receiver only. Attached is a recent screen shot of what I saw while flying a week ago. I'm only using Foreflight with a 1st gen Stratus receiver so I'm not seeing all the traffic but it's better than nothing in my opinion. Click image for larger version. 

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    http://ipadpilotnews.com/2013/06/ads-b-traffic-101/

  6. #86
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...e223533-1.html

    The FAA on Monday posted a correction to its rule on ADS-B requirements for the general aviation fleet, which should offer more choices to owners of experimental and LSA aircraft. The notice reads that the final rule, posted in May 2010, required that ADS-B equipment must meet the requirements of certain TSOs; however, the FAA says it should have stated that the equipment must "meet the performance requirements" in those TSOs. The change is substantial, since equipment may be available in the experimental market that hasn't gone through the expensive TSO process, but can deliver the same performance at a lower price. The requirements for type-certificated aircraft are unchanged,..................

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    In my EAA meeting a recently retired Navy electronics genius, and member, has just made, and is testing, his own ADS-B unit. It is about the size of a deck of cards. It transmits and receives. He's got about $80 into making it. His goal is to finish testing, get gov't approval, and find a way to manufacture units and get to market for $300-$500.

  8. #88
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    We'll see where this falls out, but it makes the rule consistent with other rules with regards to treatment of E-AB and LSA aircraft. As long as the equipment meets performance standards, there isn't a requirement for a TSO certification. Unfortunately, that doesn't relieve the issue for the folks flying standard category aircraft. But for the E-AB pilots (like me) and LSA pilots the cost to equip with ADS-B out just dropped from ~$5000 to <$1000 as this should remove the requirement for the FAA blessed high $$ WAAS III GPS puck. This should make units like the much less expensive SkyGuard units legal for E-AB and LSA aircraft after 2020. I would expect a number of manufacturers to start producing ADS-B out units for the E-AB and LSA market in the near future, so there should be a significant price drop for that market.

    -Cub Builder

  9. #89
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    Here's a complete ADS-B out solution from Garmin:
    "Garmin is now shipping the GDL 84, an all-in-one solution to the coming ADS-B mandate. The GDL 84 combines the necessary transmitter and WAAS-aided GPS position sensor in a single box to comply with the ADS-B “out” mandate that takes effect in 2020. The GDL 84 also has the “in” capability to receive the traffic, subscription-free weather and other information sent up on the FIS-B channel. And Garmin includes its Flight Stream Bluetooth gateway so all of that information can be displayed on a tablet without need for additional wires or changes in the instrument panel.The complete GDL 84 hardware package, including installation kit, antenna, and the Flight Stream gateway is priced at $3,995. The system also includes Garmin’s technology to wirelessly “read” the selected Mode C code from any transponder meeting that part of the ADS-B requirement without additional wires or the need to mount new equipment in the panel or buy a new transponder."

    http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/eaa-news-a...s-b-out-system

  10. #90
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...-223725-1.html

    FreeFlight Systems will offer an ADS-B-Out system with a price tag of under $2,000. The company will officially launch its Equip-It 2020 packages on April 8, the opening day of this year’s Aircraft Electronics Association Convention in Dallas. Equip-It 2020 will include FreeFlight’s RANGR Lite in two options, ADS-B-Out, which will meet the 2020 equipment requirement, and ADS-B In/Out, which will have the added weather and traffic capabilities. The ADS-B Out-only option includes the FDL-978-TXL with a list price of $1,995. The ADS-B In/Out system, the FDL-978- XVRL, will sell for $3,695. Both systems come complete with built-in WAAS/GPS, ADS-B and GPS antennas, an install kit, control head and/or a Wi-Fi module if needed.
    “Many of our customers, especially those with older aircraft, told us that they need a low cost option for equipage to meet the Jan.1, 2020 deadline for ADS-B,” said Tim Taylor, president and CEO of FreeFlight. “We needed to find a way to accomplish that without compromising the quality of the system. Volume was the way to make that happen, and we are stepping up.” To that end, the company said it’s committed to build 10,000 systems in an effort to keep the cost down for buyers and is offering them through participating dealers, which will be announced April 8. Deliveries are expected to begin late in the second quarter of this year, FreeFlight said.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndill View Post
    One other thing what happens when everything is space based. Yes GPS is spaced based but we still have VORs, as soon as the mandate goes into effect you know they'll be shutting down the VORs as fast as they can to save money. Which brings me to George Clooney's line in the movie Gravity. "Well it looks like half of North America just lost it's Facebook". I think a lot of people need to brush up on their pilotage skills.
    There is no part of ADS-B (other than the GPS input for location and altitude) that will ever be space based. The entire system relies on Ground Based Transmitters (GBTs), which is why coverage in mountainous terrain is only "promised" above 6000 feet msl.

    But, since the FAA now has to maintain these hundreds of GBTs, the cost of VORs is probably a drop in the bucket.

    MTV

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    Agree 100%

    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    This depicts where ADS B Out will be required starting 1/1/2020.
    I live, and keep my planes, in the area defined as the 30 nm veil of the Class B airspace for KBOS. I have been flying in this location since the days of the ADCOCK range and the existence of many more airports. (stewartb, I would have been happy being in Alaska, but this is where my life's fortune has taken me.) I used to be able to fly into Logan by calling them on HF and listening on LF in my hand propped $400 Tcraft with a wind driven generator. I used to be able to fly into Logan, taxi up to Northeast Airlines passenger terminal, pick up my pay check and fly home. Without a transponder. Those days are long gone. Over time my flying activities have been squeezed and squeezed. I used to fly out of a large square shaped airport (PLY) which had several grass/dirt runways. Now a lot of jet planes use the (non tower) "field". During the years before the Class B, there was a lot of small airplane flying for the fun of it. Gradually, over time with the FAA "helping", the noose has been tightened. (The FAA office used to be actually located at a NORDO (OWD) airport). Now they don't even answer their phone. Now there is so little flying activity, I actually stop what I'm doing to marvel at the flying machines when they occasionally pass by. Now, effective 1/1/2020, those few airplanes will be required, under the pain of big brother (FAA & congress), to be equip with fancy $$$ electronic devices which are supposed to keep them from running into each other. In addition, these mandated devices, will send an identity tag to the government data base which will provide evidence to prosecute (big brother is watching) should any small indiscretion take place. Now, all of these little airplanes are flying outside of the space which is reserved for the big jets (the jets are usually kept at 5,000/10,000 feet or more) yet they must transmit their information to those jets and ATC. I can just see the ATC wondering what those airplanes are doing, going down to ground level and back up (like mosquitoes in a puddle) in many locations where there are not any airports. We have a lot of bodies of water which are suitable for seaplanes in this Class B veil. One of the few freedoms remaining. SHHH!

    Now here is something else which I wish to point out to you. Go to this FAA site: http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/implement...ms/adsb/faq/#4 You will see this paragraph: "The ADS-B Out rule does not apply in the airspace defined in items 1 and 2 above for any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders." This is the reason that my Cub has never had an "electrical system". An electrical system is defined by the FAA as having an "engine driven electrical source". Unfortunately, for me, my 185 has an electrical system. So, I am going to be required to spend money, reduce the useful load, identify myself every time I slip the surly bonds of earth, so that I can be identified flying around alone in no mans land doing touch and goes in my numerous ponds. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that ATC will have the ability to turn off the clutter which they deem a nuisance.

    Now IF this ADS B business was voluntary, you would not have heard from me. Please don't send this to R&R. There has been a lot of talk about the free benefits of ADS B In. ADS B In, is voluntary/optional. There are numerous benefits for all. Go for it if you wish. My rambling is meant to be informational. Please accept it as such.
    I agree 100% and Also expect this to eliminate most inexpensive aircraft which allow so many to enter and stay in aviation. not too many folks willing or able to invest large sums of money equipping aircraft that routinely sell for 10k -15k So many good old tri pacers, colts, t crafts and countless others that just don't justify thousands in government electronics.
    I am a big fan of added safety but no fan of Tracking, Killing the budget flyers and step by step watching the vintage aircraft pushed aside. Today a guy can still enter aviation in a budget airplane that still has a measure of safety and years to fly remaining, but the Days are now Numbered.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    ..... Those days are long gone. Over time my flying activities have been squeezed and squeezed. I used to fly out of a large square shaped airport (PLY) which had several grass/dirt runways. Now a lot of jet planes use the (non tower) "field". During the years before the Class B, there was a lot of small airplane flying for the fun of it. Gradually, over time with the FAA "helping", the noose has been tightened. ......
    Quote Originally Posted by aerialimage View Post
    I agree 100% and Also expect this to eliminate most inexpensive aircraft which allow so many to enter and stay in aviation. not too many folks willing or able to invest large sums of money equipping aircraft that routinely sell for 10k -15k So many good old tri pacers, colts, t crafts and countless others that just don't justify thousands in government electronics.
    I am a big fan of added safety but no fan of Tracking, Killing the budget flyers and step by step watching the vintage aircraft pushed aside. Today a guy can still enter aviation in a budget airplane that still has a measure of safety and years to fly remaining, but the Days are now Numbered.
    OOPS you got my fur up again! Addendum: to the large square grass field. I attended the biannual IA meeting on that field this week. It was held in a heated hangar, the use of which was generously donated by the owner. Care to guess what was parked in this hangar? A very expensive nearly new Falcon 2000. THIS IS STILL A NORDO AIRPORT just barely outside of the BOS Class B airspace. Talk about squeezing out the little guy. This is likely to be the same guy who makes a ten mile straight in (makes a ten mile radio call when two miles out) and gets BS at me because he perceives me to be getting in HIS way when I am on a short base leg to final! Like he doesn't care to follow the published Aeronautics regulations in this state which require all aircraft to fly a left hand traffic pattern unless otherwise (it is not) noted. Some airplanes belong at controlled large airports. A Falcon 2000 is one of these.
    N1PA

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    I find this fascinating because in my conversations with Boston center controllers at safety seminars they tell me aircraft targets and movements in this airspace are down about 35% from what they were in the 70s and I don't recall any midairs in this area since I started back then.
    Is it necessary for safety?Maybe only because many pilots(?) are so focused on their panel toys they don't look outside anymore.
    These folks will only become more unaware and dependent on their gadgets to keep them safe.
    I don't know how much of this is big brother needing to keep track of us for security or enforcement but I am suspicious enough of their motives to be concerned.
    I tend to think it is just a technology driven make work/ justify our paycheck/We will keep the sheep safe government program.
    I think we will have death(s) due to a drone[private citizen idiot type] encounter soon if they don't manage to reign that situation in.Much bigger threat I believe than good heads up pilots running into one another.
    My two cents.

    Bill

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    Pete I had a corporate Pilatus fake a full left hand pattern with radio calls but was really doing a long straight in.If we could have found the pilot who was nowhere to be found when we got on the ground it would have been ugly.

    Bill

  16. #96
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willyb View Post
    Pete I had a corporate Pilatus fake a full left hand pattern with radio calls but was really doing a long straight in.If we could have found the pilot who was nowhere to be found when we got on the ground it would have been ugly.

    Bill
    Bill,
    You are 100% correct on both posts. As a group (there are exceptions of course), of all types of nonmilitary flying, the corporate types are the most arrogant, elitist, narcissistic of all.
    N1PA

  17. #97
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willyb View Post
    I find this fascinating because in my conversations with Boston center controllers at safety seminars they tell me aircraft targets and movements in this airspace are down about 35% from what they were in the 70s and I don't recall any midairs in this area since I started back then.
    Is it necessary for safety?Maybe only because many pilots(?) are so focused on their panel toys they don't look outside anymore.
    These folks will only become more unaware and dependent on their gadgets to keep them safe.
    I don't know how much of this is big brother needing to keep track of us for security or enforcement but I am suspicious enough of their motives to be concerned.
    I tend to think it is just a technology driven make work/ justify our paycheck/We will keep the sheep safe government program.
    I think we will have death(s) due to a drone[private citizen idiot type] encounter soon if they don't manage to reign that situation in.Much bigger threat I believe than good heads up pilots running into one another.
    My two cents.

    Bill
    Originally, the FAA touted ADS-B as a direct replacement for radars......massive cost savings, is what they told Congress. Now, of course, the FAA has said that ADS-B won't be able to substitute for radar in busy airspace.

    Typical of FAA proposals. They argue vociferously for better safety in GA, then eliminate virtually all funding for the FAASafety Team.....their own GA safety program.

    MTV

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    Mike to the credit of the FAAST teams I have nothing but good to say about our local guys.It is sad when they tell us there is no money in the budget for the printed materials like the runway signage cards,or the airspace card or other handy stuff.

    If you want real frustration try to get an airspace notam issued for airspace above a private airfield.They will tell you that notams cannot be issued because it is a private airfield.
    Now this is not run by the FAA but run by Lockheed and overseen by the US Notams office in DC.For some reason neither can grasp that safety in ANY airspce is of equal importance.Every year when we have an event I try to get a notam.I succeeded once because a good guy at the local FSDO called them and threatened them.
    The issue is that when KBED is using 05 Boston Ctr brings jet traffic right over our field at 1500-2000ft and sometimes they are lower.Now our last cookout had 68 aircraft coming and going if that isn't reason for a heads up I don't know what is.
    For the past several years I now call Center and KBED tower a week ahead and inform them of the coming event.They respond with Thank You we will keep traffic away from the field.Good people to work with and some have even showed up to hang out.

    Bill

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    Thumbs up yup

    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    OOPS you got my fur up again! Addendum: to the large square grass field. I attended the biannual IA meeting on that field this week. It was held in a heated hangar, the use of which was generously donated by the owner. Care to guess what was parked in this hangar? A very expensive nearly new Falcon 2000. THIS IS STILL A NORDO AIRPORT just barely outside of the BOS Class B airspace. Talk about squeezing out the little guy. This is likely to be the same guy who makes a ten mile straight in (makes a ten mile radio call when two miles out) and gets BS at me because he perceives me to be getting in HIS way when I am on a short base leg to final! Like he doesn't care to follow the published Aeronautics regulations in this state which require all aircraft to fly a left hand traffic pattern unless otherwise (it is not) noted. Some airplanes belong at controlled large airports. A Falcon 2000 is one of these.

    yup and forget about that grass too, thats not for airplanes anymore.
    its sad to see folks kill the fun aviation that most of us where lucky enough to enjoy. many of our kids are raised around aviation and have come to know some great people thanks to aviation. not sure what it will take for them to get in the air.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    There is no part of ADS-B (other than the GPS input for location and altitude) that will ever be space based. The entire system relies on Ground Based Transmitters (GBTs), which is why coverage in mountainous terrain is only "promised" above 6000 feet msl.
    MTV
    I spent 2.6 hrs at 9500 MSL 2 weeks ago, then requested a report on my UAT ADS-B out from the FAA. They only captured the last hour of the flight between Tucson and Santa Fe.

    The other plane flying along with me also requested the FAA's report on his 1090 ES out. They captured all of his flight, I assume because he was on radar rather than broadcasting to a ground based radio station.

    We flew the exact same course and altitude over a pretty desolate area. My ADS-B unit indicated that I was out of range from any tower for well over an hour on this flight.

    BTW, both of our units failed according to the FAA's reports. Mine is a SkyguardTWX, which meets the performance standard for position, but fails to meet the ADS-B rule because there is no pressure altitude output. Only GPS altitude. His is a Dynon Skyview feeding a headless Trig TT22 Modes S transponder. His meets the ADS-B rule, but fails as his accuracy is off by a factor of 10 from my Skyguard unit. His should be correctable with a better GPS receiver, which Dynon will undoubtedly offer (if they don't already). Mine will require replacement to be 2020 compliant.

    Cub Builder

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerialimage View Post

    yup and forget about that grass too, thats not for airplanes anymore.
    its sad to see folks kill the fun aviation that most of us where lucky enough to enjoy. many of our kids are raised around aviation and have come to know some great people thanks to aviation. not sure what it will take for them to get in the air.
    ps. That Falcon is one of those planes which is registered to an out of state corp. Another owner playing "hide the weenie". Bleep the little guy!
    N1PA

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Bill,
    You are 100% correct on both posts. As a group (there are exceptions of course), of all types of nonmilitary flying, the corporate types are the most arrogant, elitist, narcissistic of all.
    Ouch..........

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Bill,
    You are 100% correct on both posts. As a group (there are exceptions of course), of all types of nonmilitary flying, the corporate types are the most arrogant, elitist, narcissistic of all.
    Man! All this time I thought it was retired fighter pilots who buy a Super Cub.

    Eddie
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  24. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by mam90 View Post
    Ouch..........
    mam90 I think Pete is gonna have to buy your food at the next cookout

    Bill

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    so how will they police this,they can't stop the drones now.

  26. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by willyb View Post
    mam90 I think Pete is gonna have to buy your food at the next cookout

    Bill
    That would instantly heal my bruised feelings!!!

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    If you don't want to be "tracked" by the govt, don't go where ads-b is required. Of course when radar is eliminated, you'll be able to squawk OFF and not be tracked at all.

    I Also wouldn't worry too much about the cost or the impending "deadline". These deadlines are always moved several times before they are finally implemented. Mode-C, RVSM, Mode-S, enhanced mode-s all come to mind. These "enhancements" all start in Europe, where there is much higher IFR traffic density, and migrate over here.

    I remember when people were having very similar conversations about Mode-C. Now you can't hardly buy an airplane without an encoder and it's actually cheaper for me to buy a new encoder than it is to have the avionics shop calibrate and certify my old one. And there are still lots of places to fly without any transponder at all if that is what one desires.

  28. #108
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    Radar is not going away. How else could someone, with ill intentions, be seen if they just turn off or disable ADS-B?
    If the pilot fears to test his skills with the elements, he has chosen the wrong profession.....Lindbergh

  29. #109
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    For those that are concerned about big brother watching you, the ADS-B out equipment is supposed to have an anonymous mode that can be used any time you are squawking 1200 (vfr).

    -Cub Builder

  30. #110
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    The ADS600-EXP is a Remote Mount ADS-B Transceiver with UAT OUT & IN, for use by EXPERIMENTAL AND LSA AIRCRAFT ONLY - Not for use by Certified Aircraft..


    Experimental and LSA aircraft equipping with the ADS600-EXP are "good-to-go" for entering airspace mandated to have ADS-B on 1/1/2020.

    Complies with the ADS-B Final Rule Technical Amendment, dated 2/9/2015, affecting 14 CFR 91.225 (b)(1)(ii) which permits ADS-B OUT in the National Airspace with devices that meet the performance requirements of TSO-C154c.



    GENERAL:
    The ADS600-EXP offers full ADS-B OUT (transmit), and IN (receive) capabilites, deliverying traffic and weather to displays connected via internal WIFI and/or RS-232 serial channel. Sends Traffic & Weather to popular iPad apps like Hilton WingX, Seattle Avionics FlyQ, and iFly. Displays on non-proprietary systems such as Advanced Flight Displays (AFS), and Grand Rapid Technologies (GRT) EFIS's.

    TRANSPONDER - ALTITUDE ENCODER INTERFACE:
    The FAA requires that an ADS-B Out device be connected to the installed Transponder and Altitude Encoder.

    Transponder: The ADS600-EXP supports modern Transponders that have a digital RS-232 output providing REMOTE (front panel) information such as Squawk Code, Ident, and Mode A/C information.

    Altitude Encoder: Likewise the ADS600-EXP supports modern altitude encoders that can send RS-232 serial formatted data.
    TransMonSPE(tm): If your aircraft does not have a modern transponder and/or altitude encoder, then you must purchase the optional TransMonSPE device. The patent-pending TransMonSPE simply slips over the Transponder coax cable and picks up Mode A and Mode C replies when the transponder is interrogated by ground radar or other aircraft having TCAS equipment.

    GPS:

    Contains internal GPS system - does not require an externally connected GPS.

    Auto-Stealth Mode:
    The UAT technology is the only ADS-B equipment that will allow for privacy. Normally, ADS-B devices transmit the aircrafts ICAO number, a unique code that is assigned by the FAA to each aircraft. When flying VFR however, there is no need to let the FAA know who you are. The ADS600-EXP randomizes the ICAO whenever the squawk code is set to 1200. In addition, the N-Number of the aircraft configured is changed to "N0", an unassigned N-Number.

    OPTIONS:
    1. 1090ES Receiver - This is both a hardware and software option. If ordering the option, 1090ES receiver hardware will be installed. A future software update (free) will enable the feature at a later date.
    2. TransMonSPE - Required option if you have an older style transponder in the aircraft. See section on Transponder-Altitude Encoder above for more information.
    3. MATING CONNECTOR / HARNESS - connector kit includes mating DB-9, machined pins, and 45 degree entry, RFI/EMI shielded Backshell. Can be ordered with power & ground wires pre-pinned, or with all wires pre-pinned.
    4. UAT COAX CABLE - Can be ordered with assembled and tested UAT coax cable. Right Angle SMA on ADS600-EXP end, with straight BNC on UAT Antenna end. Uses RG-400 material. Orderable in 3' or 6' length.

  31. #111
    Cub Builder's Avatar
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    Within a week of my publishing the FAA results of testing my Skyguard TWX ADS-B transceiver (UAT Out, 1090ES and UAT In), Skyguard has stopped manufacturing the unit and is now offering a new unit as well as a trade in for the non-compliant units like mine. The new unit now includes a sniffer to pick up the squawk and altitude being put out by the transponder, which makes it compliant with the 2020 ADS-B rule. (Mine is non-compliant due to missing pressure altitude). Complete portable ADS-B in and out package is $1595 + $20 shipping, but only legal in 2020 for Experimentals since it is considered to be a portable unit. It's also available with an AHRS unit in it for another $400. I'm wrestling with whether to fork over more $$ to trade mine in for the 2020 compliant model, or wait to see if the price comes down, but lose the trade in value.

    -Cub Builder

  32. #112
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    .... but only legal in 2020 for Experimentals since it is considered to be a portable unit.
    Hmmmm, Isn't this interesting? The electronic signals are legal to fly around the sky when sent by an experimental airplane but not from a certified airplane. How does the recipient of these signals know what the certification status is of the airsheen which sends them? Particularly if it is a VFR signal which does not have an identifier attached? This is beginning to sound as though the "big" avionics manufacturers have twisted Washington's arm to pass some mandates in order to have an increased captured customer base. And that increased safety is just another big lie.
    N1PA

  33. #113
    Cub Builder's Avatar
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    It's the TSO issue. The FAA requires a TSO'd installation for ADS-B Out in a certificated aircraft. To be TSO'd, it has to be a fixed installation and signed off by an avionics shop. No TSO required for installation in an E-AB aircraft since they don't have a type certificate, so a portable device is acceptable provided it meets the requirement of the ADS-B Out rule and meets the technical performance standard. S-LSA Aircraft fall somewhere in between with the requirement of a letter stating that the device works as designed in that LSA model.

    If the Part 23 rewrite the FAA was supposed to have done a year ago was to include a "Primary Non-Commercial" category aircraft as was recommended by the the FAAs own ARC committee, then you could skip the TSO standard as long as you aren't flying for hire. But with today's rules, a certificated aircraft requires a TSO approved installation. That's why I sold my certificated aircraft and built my own planes a number of years ago. Read the recommendations in the Part 23 Reorganization ARC Report. That will probably get you as fired up as the crusade to reform the class III medicals. The FAA is dragging their collective feet on this more than the medical reforms.

    Cub Builder
    Last edited by Cub Builder; 03-25-2015 at 02:34 PM.

  34. #114
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    Mike,

    There certainly is a "space" based portion of ADS-B - and there is a very significant benefit to us backcountry pilots if we equipped with ADS-B. That is the air-to-air portion, and it does not rely solely on line of sight to GBTs. 2 ADS-B out equipped aircraft well below ridge lines in Idaho will be talking to each other and will show up on the others ADS-B in systems if they have them. I don't think this should be dismissed - and I know not all of us agree with it - but it does exist.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    There is no part of ADS-B (other than the GPS input for location and altitude) that will ever be space based. The entire system relies on Ground Based Transmitters (GBTs), which is why coverage in mountainous terrain is only "promised" above 6000 feet msl.

    But, since the FAA now has to maintain these hundreds of GBTs, the cost of VORs is probably a drop in the bucket.

    MTV

  35. #115
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    The aircraft to aircraft portion is not "space" based.

    Eddie
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  36. #116
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefoy84 View Post
    The aircraft to aircraft portion is not "space" based.

    Eddie
    That is correct. My point was simply that the GPS portion of the system is the only space based component of ADS-B as it currently exists. This, in my opinion, is where the FAA really missed the boat when designing this system. A satellite linked ADS-B system could offer weather and "radar-like" services at virtually any altitude....even in the mountains.
    MTV

  37. #117
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I was replying to Soyanarchisto's rebuttal.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  38. #118

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    From an IATA publication....

    Every year, the best part of six trillion kilometers is covered by more than 30 million scheduled commercial flights. The skies are busy. And with air traffic growth at around 5% a year, they will only get busier.
    At the same time, the loss of flight MH370 earlier in 2014 has highlighted a need for greater surveillance and tracking of aircraft, especially over remote or oceanic airspace.
    A potential solution to both of these issues is space based Automatic Dependence Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B). While a ground based version of the technology has been around for some time, the space based adaptation is now close to being realized.
    The terrestrial iteration is a more accurate and efficient version of radar. Space based ADS-B takes this idea and extends it by negating the need for a conventional line-of-sight connection with a ground station. By transferring the surveillance and tracking of aircraft to satellites rather than ground based radar, not only does surveillance and tracking over oceanic and remote areas become possible, but also capacity and safety in general can be enhanced.
    Driving efficiency

    Space based ADS-B could eliminate many of the inefficiencies in today’s air traffic management system, reducing flight times, fuel burn, and carbon emissions. Across the Atlantic, for example, positional updates are relatively slow, resulting in the extended spacing of aircraft. If an aircraft’s position could be pinpointed exactly, efficiencies could be realized through optimized flight paths and altitudes—airplanes could fly closer.
    JetBlue Airways sees significant potential for savings. “The business case for implementing space based ADS-B is compelling,” says Joe Bertapelle, Director of Strategic Airspace Programs. “In analyzing JetBlue flights between our New York hub and Caribbean destinations, we calculated an annual fuel saving of $5.5 million in 2018 through reduced delays crossing procedural New York oceanic airspace. This data alone demonstrates a real opportunity to influence cost savings for airlines.”
    Cyriel Kronenberg, Vice President of Aireon, one of the companies involved in providing the necessary support, agrees the potential benefits are tantalizing.
    He believes the possibility of flying a more flexible flight path or altitude on the North Atlantic route could save an airline $120 million a year, or 450 liters of fuel per transatlantic flight for a typical space based ADS-B-equipped widebody airliner. “By further optimizing routing and increasing capacity, we expect airlines to save approximately $6 billion–$8 billion in fuel costs just on their North Atlantic, and North and Central Pacific routes over an initial 12-year period,” says Kronenberg.
    Air navigation service providers (ANSPs) will also benefit. Operating a radar in a remote location easily costs an ANSP $1 million a year. Avoiding those costs in low density airspace would eventually flow back to the airlines. Five ANSPs, Nav Canada, Enav, the Irish Aviation Authority, Naviair (all of which are equity partners in Aireon), and NATS, all have agreements in place with Aireon.
    “Our partners are currently working on the Concept of Operations and safety cases to use space based ADS-B,” Kronenberg says. “As soon as the constellation is fully deployed, our customers will begin conformance testing, aimed at full operational implementation by 2018. Several other ANSPs around the world are in an advanced stage of discussion with Aireon to implement the services in their airspace.”

  39. #119
    soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    Let's not be pedantic. "Space" is merely a question of altitude- 1 foot AGL you are in some kind of space - airspace. It ain't ground-based and airplane to airplane works in the backcountry for traffic regardless of whether you are in communication with a GBT.

    Mikes statement, "The entire system relies on Ground Based Transmitters " is most certainly false, or at best misleading.

    adsb is not purely about weather - it's primarily about position reporting for separation
    Last edited by soyAnarchisto; 03-26-2015 at 12:47 AM. Reason: clarifying

  40. #120
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    I have never been pedantic in my life. Whatever that is.

    Eddie
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

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