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ADS-B Mandate

WhiskeyMike said:
Actually the government will be tracking cars soon. (They are now) Transponders to pay tolls are becoming mandatory, and they're talking about charging for mileage driven on a regular basis- through tracking. The head of Ford recently slipped when he said "we know what you're doing already." He had to try and retract that. As for boats, I have a little skiff in Ipswich Mass, and have noticed a huge increase in Police presence. --- This stinks to high heavens.
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It doesn't take much imagination to see how the "user fee" issue can come back to haunt us with this technology. Those of us flying off private grass strips could still be subject to "user fees" because they will have knowledge of every flight and landing regardless of where and when it takes place. YIKES!
 
Friday I flew from Taos to Las Cruces thru the Texas mountains near the Mexico border to Fort Stockton to home at Spicewood. Nearly all of the 7 hour flight was in MVFR conditions. Not once could I get ADS-B weather. Useless technology as far as I'm concerned unless you are a high flying pavement pounder. None of my airplanes will have an ADS-B out transmitter installed.
 
Barnstormer said:
Friday I flew from Taos to Las Cruces thru the Texas mountains near the Mexico border to Fort Stockton to home at Spicewood. Nearly all of the 7 hour flight was in MVFR conditions. Not once could I get ADS-B weather. Useless technology as far as I'm concerned unless you are a high flying pavement pounder. None of my airplanes will have an ADS-B out transmitter installed.
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Using what equipment?
 
Barnstormer said:
Friday I flew from Taos to Las Cruces thru the Texas mountains near the Mexico border to Fort Stockton to home at Spicewood. Nearly all of the 7 hour flight was in MVFR conditions. Not once could I get ADS-B weather. Useless technology as far as I'm concerned unless you are a high flying pavement pounder. None of my airplanes will have an ADS-B out transmitter installed.
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Living South of Ft Stockton, I'd have to agree. Then there is the once a year trip cross country, what do you do?
 
Stratus 2 and Foreflight. My experience is ADS-B weather generally works above 3,000' AGL but sucks otherwise.
 
Thanks. My GDL39 doesn't pick it up on the ground but as soon as I take off it works fine, at least after climbing a few hundred feet when I've glanced at it. I figured that was the case everywhere. The service maps show much better service in S Texas than anywhere in Alaska. I suppose proximity to a ground station and line of sight are factors. Much to learn.

http://ipadpilotnews.com/2012/05/flying-with-stratus-a-practical-perspective/
 
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Biotex said:
Living South of Ft Stockton, I'd have to agree. Then there is the once a year trip cross country, what do you do?
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The same as you have always done. After 2020, stay out of class B airspace. If that J-4 doesn't have an engine driven generator/alternator, you will not be required to have ADS-B out.
 
Some correspondence I just had with Bendix King is shown below regarding the KT74 and the KGX150/130. This latter box ($4200) might be the ticket for easy installation as it is a remote box with a self contained transponder and GPS that can comply with the ADS-B OUT rule and display ADS-B IN with a wireless connection to an iPad. I think this correspondence shows that it is "early times' for getting serious about the 2020 rule and a lot of equipment is still being developed.

KT74 Plus What Else?
I am looking at the 2020 requirement for ADS-B Out. I see that I can replace my KT76C in my Piper Super Cub with a KT74 : Plug-n-Play. What I don't understand is any further requirement beyond just buying the KT74 and installing it for just ADS-B Out? Will I need to connect it to a GPS? If so -- that no longer is Plug-n-Play, Right? So what GPS units are compatible with the KT-74? What is the least cost option for having the minimal system to satisfy the 2020 requirement? Can I connect the KT74 to my Garmin 496?
Darrel Starr

On Sep 11, 2014, at 1:48 PM, Tech Support <techsupport@bendixking.com> wrote:
Thank you for contacting BendixKing by Honeywell!Good Morning,The KT 74 is ADS-B OUT compliant, but as stated in the brochures there are some additional requirements needed that is not part of your current installation. The ADS-B OUT installation requires four things that are not currently installed in all KT-76C installation.
1 - Air/Ground determination switch
2 - GPS Position Source
3 - TIS-A out (if used)
4 - STC - SA00765DE
I do not see the PA-18 or the Garmin 496 listed in the current KT 74 STC. I will need to pass this information on to the KT 74 project manager and see if there are any plans to add the Piper Super Cub to the list.
The other option would be to look at the KGX 150/130 that is coming out soon, that would allow you to keep your current KT 76C and just add the ADS-B Out portion in the form of a remote mount unit. The KGX is a UAT unit intended to be used below 18K ft. KGX 150 has an internal GPS, the KGX 130 does not have an internal GPS
Regards, Wayne Darsnek, BendixKing Technical Support

Wayne, thanks for your response. No STC for a PA-18 Super Cub stops me cold. Will wait for the new products. Darrel Starr

Good Afternoon Darrel,We have had some additional discussion on this subject. As it turns out, it has to do with how the FAA is going to allow them to address the STC installations as it relates to non-metal aircraft and the ground plane needed for the antennas. On metal aircraft you can do it through similarity, but on aircraft with cloth skins it raises the issue on having to do an STC for each air-frame. If I had to guess I would think they will come to some sort of agreement to resolve this issue.
Regards, Wayne Darsnek, BendixKing Technical Support
 
I guess to assure the ground plane is correctly designed. You need to ask the Bendix King guy. His email address is in the text.
 
Barnstormer said:
Friday I flew from Taos to Las Cruces thru the Texas mountains near the Mexico border to Fort Stockton to home at Spicewood. Nearly all of the 7 hour flight was in MVFR conditions. Not once could I get ADS-B weather. Useless technology as far as I'm concerned unless you are a high flying pavement pounder. None of my airplanes will have an ADS-B out transmitter installed.
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Since I live in the area just to the south of Taos (Los Alamos) and fly all over northern NM a lot, I have to conclude that your installation was having some issues that day. I use a SkyRadar ADS-B weather only receiver in the SC and a Skyguard TWX with weather, traffic and UAT out in the other plane. If there are active thunderstorms in the area, I usually pick up the NEXRAD radar images on the ground in both Santa Fe and Los Alamos with either of my FIS-B units as the ADS-B tower is constantly updating the radar images when there is active weather. If there's not much going on for the radar, then I usually start picking up the AWOS weather reports for the local airports as soon as I take off.

You are correct that it works much better in my high flying go fast plane, but the weather also works reasonably well even down low in the mountains in the SC, at least in this area. I fly back and forth between Los Alamos and the Farmington area in the SC pretty regularly. The last of the towers came on line through that area this spring, so I see pretty good coverage through there, even down low in the SC.

I have flown over most of the country with the skyradar ADS-B weather receiver since I bought it 3 years ago. It's pretty rare that I can't pick up weather at 1000' AGL. I assume your Stratus unit has provisions to plug in an external antenna. You might want to give it a try.

Next time you're in the area, drop in at Los Alamos. My hangar is right next to the fuel pump.

Cub Builder
 
Cub Builder said:
Next time you're in the area, drop in at Los Alamos. My hangar is right next to the fuel pump.
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I'll do it. I should be back in November when the Green Drake hatch happens on the Rio.

I have a mad scientist friend who worked at Los Alamos back in the day. My favorite story is about he and a friend taking "the device" to Nevada in the trunk of his Toyota. Different days.
 
I am not offering a direct opinion on NextGen here. Just BS’n on skywagon8a’s link.
Several years ago while remodeling our tree fort/house; we found newspapers from 1970’s stuffed in the block foundation. The news articles and op-eds were like reading a current newspaper, with just the folks' names and topics different.
It’d be interesting to locate and read opinions/commentaries written during execution of Ranges or VORs. I’m positive someone distinguished commented on efficient government back then.
Similar to reading Ben Franklin’s editorials and op-eds. If you can read past his comedy, his writings show how little our opinions on upgrading methods changes with time.
Please carry on with the helpful (to me) information.
Dwayne
 
ER, One of the big differences back then is that there were no mandates to equip all the planes.

There were no mandates to "play" in the ATC system. Folks could basically fly nearly anywhere they pleased without communicating with anyone. You were allowed to land at a tower controlled airport without having any electronic equipment of any kind what so ever. Remember, or maybe you don't, you just showed up in the traffic pattern and the tower flashed a light towards you. NO EQUIPMENT MANDATES AT ALL !
 
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I read something lately about the FAA wanting to have a summit about ADSB because they are saying there will be no extension of date of the mandate. This in spite of the fact that congress gave them a mandate to reform part 23 which they say they will miss by 2 years. Not to mention the lack of action on the third class medical that they are obviously dragging their feet on. May I suggest that what's good for the goose is good for the gander and maybe a little civil disobedience is in order.
 
One other thing what happens when everything is space based. Yes GPS is spaced based but we still have VORs, as soon as the mandate goes into effect you know they'll be shutting down the VORs as fast as they can to save money. Which brings me to George Clooney's line in the movie Gravity. "Well it looks like half of North America just lost it's Facebook". I think a lot of people need to brush up on their pilotage skills.
 
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ndill said:
One other thing what happens when everything is space based. Yes GPS is spaced based but we still have VORs, as soon as the mandate goes into effect you know they'll be shutting down the VORs as fast as they can to save money. Which brings me to George Clooney's line in the movie Gravity. "Well it looks like half of North America just lost it's Facebook". I think a lot of people need to brush up on their pilotage skills.
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Not to be cynical but when has the government made an honest attempt "to save money"? They shift the expense elsewhere and mandate that it comes out of the other pocket.:evil:
 
One "feature" of ADS-B is that it depends on 600 (soon to be 800) ground stations that are "line-of-sight". Not a problem for most airplanes going somewhere at altitude. But will it be useful to those of us running round 1000-1500 ft above the ground? My guess is that it will be nearly useless in many areas where the plane is not in "line-of-sight" of an ADS-B tower. Could be wrong, since it seems to work in Alaska.
 
Darrel, It has been my understanding that part of this system being able to work efficiently is that, with all planes equipped, they will communicate among themselves without going through the towers first. I believe that is how the original Capstone system worked in Alaska.
 
For those that are equipped it is line of sight between the planes for direct traffic info. For those using a transponder, Center has to see the transponder, then your position, heading, altitude, etc gets broadcast back out from the ADS-B tower. Transponder equipped aircraft drop off my display a lot. Weather data comes only from the ADS-B tower, which is effectively line of sight. The range on the ADS-B broadcast to a plane flying low (or on the ground) is about the same distance as your TV reception from a broadcast tower, for those that can remember broadcast TV. Works fine if you're close to the tower. Works OK at 50 miles. Works not so good if you're down low further from the tower than 50 miles. Distance improves somewhat in the flat lands.

-Cub Builder
 
I think this article gives a pretty good explanation of what you can expect if you are using an ads-b receiver only. Attached is a recent screen shot of what I saw while flying a week ago. I'm only using Foreflight with a 1st gen Stratus receiver so I'm not seeing all the traffic but it's better than nothing in my opinion. stratus.jpg

http://ipadpilotnews.com/2013/06/ads-b-traffic-101/
 

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http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/FAA-Amends-ADS-B-Rule223533-1.html

The FAA on Monday posted a correction to its rule on ADS-B requirements for the general aviation fleet, which should offer more choices to owners of experimental and LSA aircraft. The notice reads that the final rule, posted in May 2010, required that ADS-B equipment must meet the requirements of certain TSOs; however, the FAA says it should have stated that the equipment must "meet the performance requirements" in those TSOs. The change is substantial, since equipment may be available in the experimental market that hasn't gone through the expensive TSO process, but can deliver the same performance at a lower price. The requirements for type-certificated aircraft are unchanged,..................
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In my EAA meeting a recently retired Navy electronics genius, and member, has just made, and is testing, his own ADS-B unit. It is about the size of a deck of cards. It transmits and receives. He's got about $80 into making it. His goal is to finish testing, get gov't approval, and find a way to manufacture units and get to market for $300-$500.
 
We'll see where this falls out, but it makes the rule consistent with other rules with regards to treatment of E-AB and LSA aircraft. As long as the equipment meets performance standards, there isn't a requirement for a TSO certification. Unfortunately, that doesn't relieve the issue for the folks flying standard category aircraft. But for the E-AB pilots (like me) and LSA pilots the cost to equip with ADS-B out just dropped from ~$5000 to <$1000 as this should remove the requirement for the FAA blessed high $$ WAAS III GPS puck. This should make units like the much less expensive SkyGuard units legal for E-AB and LSA aircraft after 2020. I would expect a number of manufacturers to start producing ADS-B out units for the E-AB and LSA market in the near future, so there should be a significant price drop for that market.

-Cub Builder
 
Here's a complete ADS-B out solution from Garmin:
"Garmin is now shipping the GDL 84, an all-in-one solution to the coming ADS-B mandate. The GDL 84 combines the necessary transmitter and WAAS-aided GPS position sensor in a single box to comply with the ADS-B “out” mandate that takes effect in 2020. The GDL 84 also has the “in” capability to receive the traffic, subscription-free weather and other information sent up on the FIS-B channel. And Garmin includes its Flight Stream Bluetooth gateway so all of that information can be displayed on a tablet without need for additional wires or changes in the instrument panel.The complete GDL 84 hardware package, including installation kit, antenna, and the Flight Stream gateway is priced at $3,995. The system also includes Garmin’s technology to wirelessly “read” the selected Mode C code from any transponder meeting that part of the ADS-B requirement without additional wires or the need to mount new equipment in the panel or buy a new transponder."

http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/eaa-news-...n-delivering-its-lowest-cost-ads-b-out-system
 
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/FreeFlight-Announces-Low-Cost-ADS-B-Out-System-223725-1.html

FreeFlight Systems will offer an ADS-B-Out system with a price tag of under $2,000. The company will officially launch its Equip-It 2020 packages on April 8, the opening day of this year’s Aircraft Electronics Association Convention in Dallas. Equip-It 2020 will include FreeFlight’s RANGR Lite in two options, ADS-B-Out, which will meet the 2020 equipment requirement, and ADS-B In/Out, which will have the added weather and traffic capabilities. The ADS-B Out-only option includes the FDL-978-TXL with a list price of $1,995. The ADS-B In/Out system, the FDL-978- XVRL, will sell for $3,695. Both systems come complete with built-in WAAS/GPS, ADS-B and GPS antennas, an install kit, control head and/or a Wi-Fi module if needed.
“Many of our customers, especially those with older aircraft, told us that they need a low cost option for equipage to meet the Jan.1, 2020 deadline for ADS-B,” said Tim Taylor, president and CEO of FreeFlight. “We needed to find a way to accomplish that without compromising the quality of the system. Volume was the way to make that happen, and we are stepping up.” To that end, the company said it’s committed to build 10,000 systems in an effort to keep the cost down for buyers and is offering them through participating dealers, which will be announced April 8. Deliveries are expected to begin late in the second quarter of this year, FreeFlight said.
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