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Thread: ADS-B Mandate

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
    kase,
    Maybe. But I hadn't reported my position except on the initial call when I was 20 miles out, and they were covered up with traffic trying to get out (and in). They didn't contact me until I was flying around the edge of the airspace. Without having acknowledged my calls or giving me a transponder code, would/could they still have tracked my N-number on there screens?
    I've had the same situation at Dallas with good old Mode C.

    I made the initial call when they were slammed, and figuring I was missed I paralleled the airspace and like 8 minutes later when they were less busy (and I was needing to turn in) I got the call N yada yada yada, squawk BR549, confirm 4500ft, 3 N of Mesquite, cleared to enter Bravo Airspace, say intention?' They knew my altitude and location both of which had changed, my guess is they had an assistant entering the data on the 1200 target and later cueing the controller (they only thing they missed was my destination as Dallas Exec.).

    Funny thing, once upon a time I remember my Dad griping about having to go to Mode C...
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  2. #42
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    skywagon8a, not that I know of. Only thing I have been told is separation will be reduced from 5 to 3 miles enroute. Current radar separation is 5 miles when more than 40 miles from the radar antennae. With adsb traffic targets wont be jumping around like they do now. I will ask if we got upgrades coming. Havent really paid much attention to it cause I will probably be retired by then and dont really give a shxt.

    barnstormer, I still just think they heard you call. Wrote your number down and called you back when they could. If you really want to know call the facility and ask. Only way I know somebodys call sign is if they are ifr or receiving flight following from the center. When a vfr pilot calls I type in his call sign on my keyboard, computer assigns a code. When you get your code in the transponder and the radar sees it then your n number is shown.

  3. #43
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    Fast forward a few years when some% of the air traffic is of the UAV type. If I have to share it, I will for sure want those guys to know where I am and vice-versa. The see and avoid thought process may not work so well. Mode C will not be enough at that point. I'm sure there will be a lot of details required to fit UAV into GA airspace. There will be a lot to learn by everyone.

    Tim

  4. #44
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Since the UAV crowd has desires to enter the airspace system which has been occupied by thousands of human carrying flying machines for at least 110 years, it would be incumbent upon the UAV proponents to make sure that their UAVs have the ability to detect and avoid ALL types of human flying machines, without forcing the existing machines operators to develop and add new equipment at their own expense, to protect themselves from the "new kid on the block". Where is the personal responsibility of the UAV proponents? It is totally irresponsible of them to think that the rest of the world needs to get out of their way. And it is equally irresponsible of legislative action forcing the UAVs upon the existing aviation community.
    N1PA

  5. #45
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    I don't disagree. However, if they cannot see you then what tells them to "avoid". I suspect the mandate will be that all aircraft have ADS-B out so that those guys sitting behind a PC screen know what is out there. How else do you make it safe? If you have to share congested airspace with UAV's what is safe about their avoidance protocol. The other concern I have is that the majority of UAV's will be down in GA airspace not up in commercial airspace where it is better regimented by ATC to provide separation. (Think of an aerial spray applicator.)

    I suspect it will come down to a question of money. The UAV guys have a strong commerce driven force behind it. I don't think they will be forced to have the surveillance hardware that a USAF drone has.

    All food for thought of course......

    Tim

  6. #46
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I think that we agree on the "what", just not the "how". There are standard equipment devises on my car which tell me when the car is in close proximity to an object.
    Quote Originally Posted by MN_flyer1 View Post
    ... However, if they cannot see you then what tells them to "avoid". Tim
    Today's highly advanced electronics has advanced to an extremely sophisticated level as a result of the many decades ago race to the moon. There are all sorts of sophisticated electronic sensing gadgets out there along with the electronic whiz kids, with the brain power, to develop a device which would detect an object in the UAV's flight path. Whether the object was a building, a tower, a hill or a no electric J-3. There is no reason what so ever for the UAV crowd to jump in the middle of a well established aviation community and expect the aviation community to just roll over. There is no reasonable reason at all to force 100% of the aviation community to support the ADS-B manufacturers for the benefit of the UAVs. It is the responsibility of the UAVs to ensure that they themselves can not and will not harm even one individual in the existing flying community.

    Who knows, just perhaps they will develop a simple low cost electronic obstacle detection device which will be a boon to all aviation users? Automobile users? Boaters? etc, etc? Then all will be winners. Boil it all down. It is the UAV developers responsibility to do no harm. It is part of the privilege of being a UAV.
    N1PA

  7. #47
    574cub's Avatar
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    Whether your for or against the ADS-B we all have a vested interest in not hitting each other. While the UAV guy playing there video game would have to live with killing someone. Unlike all of us as pilots there butt isn't in danger. They don't have there kids, family, friends who are trusting you with there lives to bring them home safe on the line. As PIC we have the ultimate authority for a reason it's our lives and our passengers lives on the line. They'll never have that seating in a chair on the ground playing games. What requirement are they going to have to have? Flight training avoidance training how about regular drug testing. I would say they at least need to be a commercial pilot or at least a similar number of hours so they have some clue.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    . There is no reason what so ever for the UAV crowd to jump in the middle of a well established aviation community and expect the aviation community to just roll over. There is no reasonable reason at all to force 100% of the aviation community to support the ADS-B manufacturers for the benefit of the UAVs. It is the responsibility of the UAVs to ensure that they themselves can not and will not harm even one individual in the existing flying community. .
    Pete, you're missing a couple points here:

    1. Very few if any industries will spend money on anything if they can get someone else to do the job for them. The technology you describe would cost a lot of $$. Why would the drone industry spend that money, if they can get the govt to force US to?

    2. Who is spending the most money on lobbyists on this topic......General Aviation? Not hardly. The drone industry is HEAVILY engaged in lobbying.

    3. Who gives a **** about some dufus in a no electric J3 anyway? If he had any REAL money, he'd be in a private jet, well above all this.

    Money is what talks in this world today, and we aren't the ones spending it in this debate. Frankly, in fact, this isn't even a debate.....notice how quiet all the aviation alphabet groups are on this?

    MTV
    Last edited by mvivion; 08-10-2014 at 01:20 PM.

  9. #49
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Mike,
    You are absolutely correct. That is why I am screaming. THEY ARE IMMORALLY WRONG. The alphabet groups are wrong. They are all just kissing the bureaucratic derrieres. We pilots make up less than 0.15% of the population so we should just roll over and play dead.

    What do you think would happen to the FAA if all of us pilots stopped flying? Nothing, it would get bigger.
    N1PA

  10. #50
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Yup.

    MTV

  11. #51

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    I am a controller at Phoenix Tracon and there is no way we know who you are without you stating your call sign. Sometimes based on the traffic and the way you called in, maybe you stated your altitude, we have a really good idea of which one is you however it was just a good guess. Even the aircraft that are ADS-B we still don't know who they are because the software just doesn't give us that information at the scope. It's possible they noticed you holding or circling in that location and just assumed it was you trying to call. I deal with numerous aircraft every day in one of our satellite sectors where radios fail or there is a severe language barrier due to Chinese students. We can get pretty good at guessing which aircraft is trying to call us.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I think that we agree on the "what", just not the "how". There are standard equipment devises on my car which tell me when the car is in close proximity to an object.

    Today's highly advanced electronics has advanced to an extremely sophisticated level as a result of the many decades ago race to the moon. There are all sorts of sophisticated electronic sensing gadgets out there along with the electronic whiz kids, with the brain power, to develop a device which would detect an object in the UAV's flight path. Whether the object was a building, a tower, a hill or a no electric J-3. There is no reason what so ever for the UAV crowd to jump in the middle of a well established aviation community and expect the aviation community to just roll over. There is no reasonable reason at all to force 100% of the aviation community to support the ADS-B manufacturers for the benefit of the UAVs. It is the responsibility of the UAVs to ensure that they themselves can not and will not harm even one individual in the existing flying community.

    Who knows, just perhaps they will develop a simple low cost electronic obstacle detection device which will be a boon to all aviation users? Automobile users? Boaters? etc, etc? Then all will be winners. Boil it all down. It is the UAV developers responsibility to do no harm. It is part of the privilege of being a UAV.
    I would think this is possible today. Look at how well Israel's Iron Dome works. We know those Hamas missiles aren't equipped with a transponder telling the defense system where they are.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  13. #53
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzack View Post
    I am a controller at Phoenix Tracon and there is no way we know who you are without you stating your call sign.
    Even with Mode S transponders?
    N1PA

  14. #54
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
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    Whine or not, all of us near metro areas will be buying ADS-B Out equipment probably about 3 yrs from now. So what we need now is a constructive dialog about the choices open to us now and any info about what companies are working on. Get past the "angry" period to tha "acceptance" phase.

  15. #55
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    You are absolutely correct Darrel. Let's keep that part of the discussion going on this thread.
    N1PA

  16. #56
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
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    In the spirit of what I said in the last post --- I am still learning about ADS-B and here is a bulletin: The Bendix/King KT74 is a plug and play transponder as a Mode S --- BUT to work in the ADS-B system it must be coupled to an APPROVED WAAS capable GPS and no portables are approved; only expensive panel mounts. So not only will some wiring be involved (NOT plug and play) but the WAAS GPS will be the really expensive part. Sounds like deceptive advertising.

    From the TRIG website -- for clarification:
    What equipment do I need?
    To support ADS-B “Out”, the aircraft must have a GPS receiver as the position source, and a datalink transmitter to actually send the ADS-B data.
    The datalink transmitter that most aircraft will use is a Mode S transponder, using a feature called “Extended Squitter”. This is often referred to as 1090 ES, because the Extended Squitter (ES) transmissions are transmitted on the 1090 MHz frequency. The Mode S transponder with Extended Squitter is the international standard for ADS-B output. Specific to US airspace – and not approved elsewhere – is the UAT datalink transmitter as an alternative to the Mode S transponder. UAT transmitters may only be used on GA aircraft flying at lower altitudes in the USA.
    The GPS receiver used must be an IFR certified receiver. Although that GPS is not required to be WAAS capable, that may be a moot point. Many legacy GPS receivers that were designed before ADS-B was planned do not include the necessary calculation of integrity and accuracy that ADS-B needs to operate. It is unlikely that these older devices can be upgraded, and therefore a new GPS receiver would be required. This does not necessarily mean discarding an existing GPS navigator - a secondary receiver can be used to provide ADS-B data without disrupting the existing installation - there is no rule that requires a single common position source.
    Last edited by Darrel Starr; 08-17-2014 at 09:29 PM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrel Starr View Post
    In the spirit of what I said in the last post --- I am still learning about ADS-B and here is a bulletin: The Bendix/King KT74 is a plug and play transponder as a Mode S --- BUT to work in the ADS-B system it must be coupled to an APPROVED WAAS capable GPS and no portables are approved; only expensive panel mounts. So not only will some wiring be involved (NOT plug and play) but the WAAS GPS will be the really expensive part. Sounds like deceptive advertising.

    From the TRIG website -- for clarification:
    What equipment do I need?
    To support ADS-B “Out”, the aircraft must have a GPS receiver as the position source, and a datalink transmitter to actually send the ADS-B data.
    The datalink transmitter that most aircraft will use is a Mode S transponder, using a feature called “Extended Squitter”. This is often referred to as 1090 ES, because the Extended Squitter (ES) transmissions are transmitted on the 1090 MHz frequency. The Mode S transponder with Extended Squitter is the international standard for ADS-B output. Specific to US airspace – and not approved elsewhere – is the UAT datalink transmitter as an alternative to the Mode S transponder. UAT transmitters may only be used on GA aircraft flying at lower altitudes in the USA.
    The GPS receiver used must be an IFR certified receiver. Although that GPS is not required to be WAAS capable, that may be a moot point. Many legacy GPS receivers that were designed before ADS-B was planned do not include the necessary calculation of integrity and accuracy that ADS-B needs to operate. It is unlikely that these older devices can be upgraded, and therefore a new GPS receiver would be required. This does not necessarily mean discarding an existing GPS navigator - a secondary receiver can be used to provide ADS-B data without disrupting the existing installation - there is no rule that requires a single common position source.
    Darrel,

    Welcome to the reality of ADS-B. I have said from the outset that at least initially, this is not going to be an inexpensive deal. I sincerely hope that some manufacturer gets something reasonably priced approved, but I'm not holding my breath. Bear in mind, at one point, some folks in the FAA were telling us a transponder would not be required to comply.

    General aviation is a small market, but there are some smart avionics folks out there. Cross your fingers, but don't buy anything till you absolutely have to.

    MTV

  18. #58

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    So five years? At that point I will have owned the Super Decathlon for fifteen - and probably will have mastered the slow roll. Bet I can sell it then for what I paid for it, and fly the J-3 until I cannot climb in.

  19. #59
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    The Mode S transponder with Extended Squitter is the international standard for ADS-B output. Specific to US airspace – and not approved elsewhere – is the UAT datalink transmitter as an alternative to the Mode S transponder. UAT transmitters may only be used on GA aircraft flying at lower altitudes in the USA.

    Notice that for us Cubbers, this is either the mode S transponder or the UAT. I believe the choice, of which, is for those who fly below 18,000 feet. And as Mike has said, this is going to be expensive.
    N1PA

  20. #60
    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    A very interesting read:
    http://www.airsport-corp.com/adsb2.htm
    Phil Whittemore

  21. #61
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    STARS, is this part of the ADS-B? http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/...ion_lemon.html If so??? I do not get a warm and fuzzy feeling about any of these FAA programs.
    N1PA

  22. #62
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    This thread and another mentions the expense of ADS-B out. There have been a couple of recent announcements about a single box ADS-B out solution. Prices aren't clear yet, but they seem to be in the $2k - $4k range.

    Here's one: http://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/eaa...ads-b-solution

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiskeyMike View Post
    Actually the government will be tracking cars soon. (They are now) Transponders to pay tolls are becoming mandatory, and they're talking about charging for mileage driven on a regular basis- through tracking. The head of Ford recently slipped when he said "we know what you're doing already." He had to try and retract that. As for boats, I have a little skiff in Ipswich Mass, and have noticed a huge increase in Police presence. --- This stinks to high heavens.
    It doesn't take much imagination to see how the "user fee" issue can come back to haunt us with this technology. Those of us flying off private grass strips could still be subject to "user fees" because they will have knowledge of every flight and landing regardless of where and when it takes place. YIKES!

  24. #64
    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    Friday I flew from Taos to Las Cruces thru the Texas mountains near the Mexico border to Fort Stockton to home at Spicewood. Nearly all of the 7 hour flight was in MVFR conditions. Not once could I get ADS-B weather. Useless technology as far as I'm concerned unless you are a high flying pavement pounder. None of my airplanes will have an ADS-B out transmitter installed.
    Phil Whittemore

  25. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
    Friday I flew from Taos to Las Cruces thru the Texas mountains near the Mexico border to Fort Stockton to home at Spicewood. Nearly all of the 7 hour flight was in MVFR conditions. Not once could I get ADS-B weather. Useless technology as far as I'm concerned unless you are a high flying pavement pounder. None of my airplanes will have an ADS-B out transmitter installed.
    Using what equipment?

  26. #66
    Biotex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
    Friday I flew from Taos to Las Cruces thru the Texas mountains near the Mexico border to Fort Stockton to home at Spicewood. Nearly all of the 7 hour flight was in MVFR conditions. Not once could I get ADS-B weather. Useless technology as far as I'm concerned unless you are a high flying pavement pounder. None of my airplanes will have an ADS-B out transmitter installed.
    Living South of Ft Stockton, I'd have to agree. Then there is the once a year trip cross country, what do you do?

  27. #67
    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    Stratus 2 and Foreflight. My experience is ADS-B weather generally works above 3,000' AGL but sucks otherwise.
    Phil Whittemore

  28. #68

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    Thanks. My GDL39 doesn't pick it up on the ground but as soon as I take off it works fine, at least after climbing a few hundred feet when I've glanced at it. I figured that was the case everywhere. The service maps show much better service in S Texas than anywhere in Alaska. I suppose proximity to a ground station and line of sight are factors. Much to learn.

    http://ipadpilotnews.com/2012/05/fly...l-perspective/
    Last edited by stewartb; 09-14-2014 at 09:01 AM.

  29. #69
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biotex View Post
    Living South of Ft Stockton, I'd have to agree. Then there is the once a year trip cross country, what do you do?
    The same as you have always done. After 2020, stay out of class B airspace. If that J-4 doesn't have an engine driven generator/alternator, you will not be required to have ADS-B out.
    N1PA

  30. #70
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
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    Some correspondence I just had with Bendix King is shown below regarding the KT74 and the KGX150/130. This latter box ($4200) might be the ticket for easy installation as it is a remote box with a self contained transponder and GPS that can comply with the ADS-B OUT rule and display ADS-B IN with a wireless connection to an iPad. I think this correspondence shows that it is "early times' for getting serious about the 2020 rule and a lot of equipment is still being developed.

    KT74 Plus What Else?
    I am looking at the 2020 requirement for ADS-B Out. I see that I can replace my KT76C in my Piper Super Cub with a KT74 : Plug-n-Play. What I don't understand is any further requirement beyond just buying the KT74 and installing it for just ADS-B Out? Will I need to connect it to a GPS? If so -- that no longer is Plug-n-Play, Right? So what GPS units are compatible with the KT-74? What is the least cost option for having the minimal system to satisfy the 2020 requirement? Can I connect the KT74 to my Garmin 496?
    Darrel Starr

    On Sep 11, 2014, at 1:48 PM, Tech Support <techsupport@bendixking.com> wrote:
    Thank you for contacting BendixKing by Honeywell!Good Morning,The KT 74 is ADS-B OUT compliant, but as stated in the brochures there are some additional requirements needed that is not part of your current installation. The ADS-B OUT installation requires four things that are not currently installed in all KT-76C installation.
    1 - Air/Ground determination switch
    2 - GPS Position Source
    3 - TIS-A out (if used)
    4 - STC - SA00765DE
    I do not see the PA-18 or the Garmin 496 listed in the current KT 74 STC. I will need to pass this information on to the KT 74 project manager and see if there are any plans to add the Piper Super Cub to the list.
    The other option would be to look at the KGX 150/130 that is coming out soon, that would allow you to keep your current KT 76C and just add the ADS-B Out portion in the form of a remote mount unit. The KGX is a UAT unit intended to be used below 18K ft. KGX 150 has an internal GPS, the KGX 130 does not have an internal GPS
    Regards, Wayne Darsnek, BendixKing Technical Support

    Wayne, thanks for your response. No STC for a PA-18 Super Cub stops me cold. Will wait for the new products. Darrel Starr

    Good Afternoon Darrel,We have had some additional discussion on this subject. As it turns out, it has to do with how the FAA is going to allow them to address the STC installations as it relates to non-metal aircraft and the ground plane needed for the antennas. On metal aircraft you can do it through similarity, but on aircraft with cloth skins it raises the issue on having to do an STC for each air-frame. If I had to guess I would think they will come to some sort of agreement to resolve this issue.
    Regards, Wayne Darsnek, BendixKing Technical Support

  31. #71
    soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    Why do you need a STC to install TSO avionics?

  32. #72
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
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    I guess to assure the ground plane is correctly designed. You need to ask the Bendix King guy. His email address is in the text.

  33. #73
    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    DOT says ADS-B Falling Well Short of Promises
    http://www.flyingmag.com/news/dot-ad...NDAxNTcwMDU0S0
    Phil Whittemore

  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
    Friday I flew from Taos to Las Cruces thru the Texas mountains near the Mexico border to Fort Stockton to home at Spicewood. Nearly all of the 7 hour flight was in MVFR conditions. Not once could I get ADS-B weather. Useless technology as far as I'm concerned unless you are a high flying pavement pounder. None of my airplanes will have an ADS-B out transmitter installed.
    Since I live in the area just to the south of Taos (Los Alamos) and fly all over northern NM a lot, I have to conclude that your installation was having some issues that day. I use a SkyRadar ADS-B weather only receiver in the SC and a Skyguard TWX with weather, traffic and UAT out in the other plane. If there are active thunderstorms in the area, I usually pick up the NEXRAD radar images on the ground in both Santa Fe and Los Alamos with either of my FIS-B units as the ADS-B tower is constantly updating the radar images when there is active weather. If there's not much going on for the radar, then I usually start picking up the AWOS weather reports for the local airports as soon as I take off.

    You are correct that it works much better in my high flying go fast plane, but the weather also works reasonably well even down low in the mountains in the SC, at least in this area. I fly back and forth between Los Alamos and the Farmington area in the SC pretty regularly. The last of the towers came on line through that area this spring, so I see pretty good coverage through there, even down low in the SC.

    I have flown over most of the country with the skyradar ADS-B weather receiver since I bought it 3 years ago. It's pretty rare that I can't pick up weather at 1000' AGL. I assume your Stratus unit has provisions to plug in an external antenna. You might want to give it a try.

    Next time you're in the area, drop in at Los Alamos. My hangar is right next to the fuel pump.

    Cub Builder

  35. #75
    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    Next time you're in the area, drop in at Los Alamos. My hangar is right next to the fuel pump.
    I'll do it. I should be back in November when the Green Drake hatch happens on the Rio.

    I have a mad scientist friend who worked at Los Alamos back in the day. My favorite story is about he and a friend taking "the device" to Nevada in the trunk of his Toyota. Different days.
    Phil Whittemore

  36. #76
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Is NextGen More Trouble Than It’s Worth?
    More news, now the Inspector General thinks that it is too expensive.

    http://www.nationaljournal.com/polic...worth-20140929
    N1PA

  37. #77

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    I am not offering a direct opinion on NextGen here. Just BS’n on skywagon8a’s link.
    Several years ago while remodeling our tree fort/house; we found newspapers from 1970’s stuffed in the block foundation. The news articles and op-eds were like reading a current newspaper, with just the folks' names and topics different.
    It’d be interesting to locate and read opinions/commentaries written during execution of Ranges or VORs. I’m positive someone distinguished commented on efficient government back then.
    Similar to reading Ben Franklin’s editorials and op-eds. If you can read past his comedy, his writings show how little our opinions on upgrading methods changes with time.
    Please carry on with the helpful (to me) information.
    Dwayne

  38. #78
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    ER, One of the big differences back then is that there were no mandates to equip all the planes.

    There were no mandates to "play" in the ATC system. Folks could basically fly nearly anywhere they pleased without communicating with anyone. You were allowed to land at a tower controlled airport without having any electronic equipment of any kind what so ever. Remember, or maybe you don't, you just showed up in the traffic pattern and the tower flashed a light towards you. NO EQUIPMENT MANDATES AT ALL !
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 10-01-2014 at 05:26 AM.
    N1PA

  39. #79

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    I read something lately about the FAA wanting to have a summit about ADSB because they are saying there will be no extension of date of the mandate. This in spite of the fact that congress gave them a mandate to reform part 23 which they say they will miss by 2 years. Not to mention the lack of action on the third class medical that they are obviously dragging their feet on. May I suggest that what's good for the goose is good for the gander and maybe a little civil disobedience is in order.

  40. #80

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    One other thing what happens when everything is space based. Yes GPS is spaced based but we still have VORs, as soon as the mandate goes into effect you know they'll be shutting down the VORs as fast as they can to save money. Which brings me to George Clooney's line in the movie Gravity. "Well it looks like half of North America just lost it's Facebook". I think a lot of people need to brush up on their pilotage skills.
    Last edited by ndill; 09-30-2014 at 08:46 PM.

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