Survival rifle question fothose that live up north.

A question for those who operate in big bear country. Buy big bear I mean Brown or Polar bears. My question is would you consider 338 federal, or 300 WSM an adequate defense/survival round against those animals. Reason I'm asking is a 308 rifle can be converted to either of those at reasonable cost especially if a gunsmith owes you a few favors. 300wsm probably preferred, ballistic performance similar to 300 Win Mag. 338 federal, a 308 on steroids little better velocity with heavier bullet.

My thought is use what might have the most available ammo , why not your 308? A controlled shot is better than a spray n pray over a uncontroled heavy recoiled gun. The 303 British has killed many a brown n polar bear.
Best bullet you can find as it is the bullet and how it performed that counts. Premium bullet
How about bear spray? Hear it is very effective. But never used any. Just my understanding.

The 45-70 now is a great backup gun now that there are great bullets made for it. But 25+ years ago was not!

For me my 475 Turnbull with 400 gr TSX bullets is my choice! But I guess I am just my bias as I made the cartridge fr the Winchester 1886 or 71.

Born and raised Alaskan. I spend time in the Bush and feel very comfortable with a 30-06 loaded with 220 gr loads or my 308 Win with 185 gr loads. Last two moose were hit with the 308 and went down like a ton of bricks.

I'd suggest carrying a gun you're good with instead of one with good specs.

Take care,

Crash

Bear hunting is vastly different from bear defense. A survival gun is different from a defense gun. For all-around survival I'd take my trusty 300 Weatherby. It's killed bears, moose, caribou, etc. Those were planned kills. I wouldn't prefer that rifle or any other scoped long gun in a wilderness defense situation. My first choice for a surprise bear encounter in brushy bear country is a 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun or more likely I'd use my S&W 500 magnum handgun because that's usually what I carry into that type of country. If it isn't brushy there's no threat. See and avoid. A well stalked bear is easily hunted with a 338 or a 300 but if you're jumped in close, which is what really happens? A short, open sighted gun is the better choice. In a bear defense situation you'll need mobility in tight quarters, rapid target acquisition, rapid recoil recovery, and rapid chambering of the next round. None favors a scoped, bolt action long gun.

I've been a long term lurker. I'm not a pilot, but enjoy reading and learning about airplanes and aviation. So, I'm not sure how much my opinion counts, but I've lived in Alaska since '91. I've been a police officer in AK since '96 and currently serve in Petersburg, but was in Hoonah on Chichagof Island before. I've killed several black and brown bears in offensive and deffensive situations. Officers that worked for me have killed more problem brown bears than I can count. I carried a Winchester Mod 70 in .375 H&H, topped with a Leupold vari X III 2.5-8, and never had a failure. Other officers had very good luck with quality rounds from 45/70's. The one failure I did see was from a .458 Socom that we used on a large boar that started offensive and ended defensive. One of my guys made a great first shot, but the round failed to penetrate more than about two inches. That bear absorbed several rounds from ranges of about 60 ft down to about 18-20 feet before he got it stopped. My advice, seek the best balance you can obtain between speed, power, and accuracy. Each is relevant and the biggest round you can accurately shoot repeatedly will serve you well.

I agree with the marlin 45/70 if you want a riffle. I also have a smith 500 with the 4" barrel. The 500 is what I like with the 4" barrel and a chest holster you can even wear it with chest wanders on. It's easier to pack on you and in the plane. I normally shoot the 440gr or 500gr and have more then enough stopping power. Shot placement is the most important thing and I like the ability to drive what ever bone that's in the way to get to the vitals. I like the recoil better on the 500 then the 454. The 500's recoil is respectable but not unmanageable I've shot mine one handed and it's do able for an up close shot. Packing a heavy long riffle can be a pain if it's just for a defense gun. Also with a scope trying to get a sight picture is hard at close range even with a low powered scope. If you do go with a riffle I would us a peep or express sights. If your going to be hunting other game and want a gun to do both I would get a heavy round and if you do use a scope a low power one like a 1x4 and leave it on 1 while your in the thick stuff.

stewartb said:

Bear hunting is vastly different from bear defense. A survival gun is different from a defense gun. For all-around survival I'd take my trusty 300 Weatherby. It's killed bears, moose, caribou, etc. Those were planned kills. I wouldn't prefer that rifle or any other scoped long gun in a wilderness defense situation. My first choice for a surprise bear encounter in brushy bear country is a 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun or more likely I'd use my S&W 500 magnum handgun because that's usually what I carry into that type of country. If it isn't brushy there's no threat. See and avoid. A well stalked bear is easily hunted with a 338 or a 300 but if you're jumped in close, which is what really happens? A short, open sighted gun is the better choice. In a bear defense situation you'll need mobility in tight quarters, rapid target acquisition, rapid recoil recovery, and rapid chambering of the next round. None favors a scoped, bolt action long gun.

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For 30+ years, I too prefer to shoot a .300 Weatherby for planned shots at big game. For the last four years I've been hunting with a AR platform .458 SOCOM, it hits like a hammer & there's some very fast & dependable follow-up shots; I've taken 2 black bear & 2 elk out of a tree stand with it. On two nights I've stumbled on & killed 3 large wild boar at close range. The .458 SOCOM has 45-70 Ballistics & is an ideal rifle to transport - pull 2 take down pins & the rifle packs in 1/2 the length. I reload - buyer beware, store bought ammo can $$. There's a wide range of bullet selection & I have a high level of confidence with the.458. Big heavy slow bullets anchor big heavy beasts.

Here is a pic of the boar and 458 it was killed with. The first round hit top of the neck, base of the skull from the rear and failed to penetrate. The follow up rounds were square on.

Roscoe said:

Here is a pick of the boar and 458 it was killed with. The first round hit top of the neck, base of the skull from the rear and failed to penetrate. The follow up rounds were square on.
View attachment 16437

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As mentioned earlier, the 458 offers a wide range of bullet selection from thin jacket plinkers to heavy African solids. My years of training with AR platforms provides me with instantanious muscle memory. My only brown bear was taken with archery gear (stalk hunt). Same formula worked for me, heavy broad head, heavy aluminum arrow & a 80# compound bow.

One 45-70 and 44 mag for defense. One 30-06 for hunting. The reason I say one is that you should use something that you have put a lot of rounds thru.

The 45-70 feels just like the lever action rifles I grew up with and can do a number on anything. Never put a strap on it. A brown does about 30 mph in high gear. You want your defense in hand not on your back. The 44 is now a Smith Airlight. It is not by best 44, but is is light enough that I do carry it.

If you have the time to sight and hunt and also want defense - the 30-06 is fine. Just put in the time to get the feel of how it works.

I am not a bush pilot, but a pilot that lives in the bush, and yes I have seen a lot of brown fur filling up the end of the barrel. Right now the 44 goes with me to the outhouse, when it starts getting dark I switch to the 45-70.

Gary Reeves said:

Right now the 44 goes with me to the outhouse, when it starts getting dark I switch to the 45-70.

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And thats in Ft. Lauderdale...

Benelli M1 super 90 with slugs/buck shot, plus you never know when you might have to shoot your way out of a ptarmigan patch.

Thanks for all the reply's. Having a backpack gun built I think I'll leave it at 308, ammo is plentiful. This year Glacier national park next year Denali hopefully.

SteveE said:

And thats in Ft. Lauderdale...

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Hey, the Palm Beaches are NORTH of Lauderdale. Reds are in the lake !!

I always tell everyone that your best survival gear up here is a gill net.

Gary

Survival: Your least probable need will be a PO'd bear. More then likely you will need food... 12 GA shotgun. If it is defense, you will be close anyway, they are superior in energy to the .44 and many handguns, most folks can hit what they aim at with them under stress, and you can CARRY IT THROUGH CANADA!

Ammo is available everywhere, and you can find a short barreled one used for cheap... I just got an 870 with two barrels for less than $250.

The 300 Wetherby is a fine rifle if you can stand the recoil, and I would not hesitate to challenge a bear with one. But if I am tired, surprised and need to turn a brown bear I would prefer the shotgun.

FYI: I have had charging bears, wounded bears and passing bears all within 50 yards at times. I have seen small brown bears take rifle rounds from short range and keep going... shoot what you are comfortable with and can feed three accurate rounds out in four seconds... a brown bear can travel 11 yards per second!

Many great suggestions here. For most it comes down to personal preference,,,i.e. what are you most familiar with. Remember, the best caliber gun for any situation is the one you have with you. Too heavy, cumbersome, unfamiliar etc. and you may find that you rationalize reasons for not carrying it with you.

Your .308 is very sufficient to do the job, is it the best gun for the job? Probably not, but if it's an AR-10, +2. The absolute most important factor is always SHOT PLACEMENT!!!! Period and lots of exclamation points. Second to that would be follow up shots. (levers suffer here because the sights will generally come off of the target while manipulating the action, same for pump and bolt actions).

NEVER COUNT ON A ONE SHOT KILL, NO MATTER WHAT LIVING CREATURE YOU SHOOT AT, too many variables. 45-70 is a great round that allows for a heavy enough bullet that is able to transfer all energy to the intended target. Don't get me wrong I know plenty of people that can shoot a lever gun faster and more accurate than most can with a semi-auto. But these folks practice, and I mean a lot. Most people don't have the time, discipline, or resources to devote to this level of proficiency.

The .458 Socom has nearly identical ballistics to the 45-70 with 10 follow up shots as fast as you can press the trigger with the sights on target. The recoil is very manageable, and can be built relatively light, these facts would make it the hands down favorite for me. As with any of the selections mentioned by other posters, bullet selection is important. You can also dedicate the lower receiver to this lifesaver gun. Heavy buffer and buffer spring will lower recoil even more.

Regarding optics, I certainly agree that a 1-4 to 1-8 scope is a very nice addition, always set in the 1x range until circumstances dictate something else. At 1x you are expected to have both eyes open which greatly heightens your situational awareness. I realize that I'm repeating some of the already well stated facts here, my point in doing so is to add validity to the ones with correct statements. Do not skimp or play around with a gun that you plan to defend your life with. LOTS AND LOTS OF PRACTICE WITH WHICHEVER YOU CHOOSE, and your chances of survival will multiply dramatically.

.458 is not the tightest shooter of the rounds mentioned but is still very good out to 150-200 yds. Some mentioned will have such great recoil that you will lose sight of the target, especially while rechambering, this is VERY BAD.

Good luck and let us know what you pick.

Ditto what most guys said. Marlin 1895 guide special in 45-70. Its short enough to stow easily and comes in at under 7 pounds. No scope-- it will drop anything you point it at under 150 yards.

aktango58 said:

. I just got an 870 with two barrels for less than $250.

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Wow Tangle,, a double barrel 870.... Post a pic, I'd like to see that....

I have more that a few great guns but when it comes to life or death I'll always choose familiarity or over trendy. Yep have Glocks and Sigs but for investigating what goes bump in the night it's the 1911-45 that is in the night stand and for major stopping power I go a pump gun and these choices are all because of memory generated by 100,000's of rounds in my youth.

I'm glad to have never had to truly defend anything but I would venture to suggest that one should use what you are truly the most comfortable and have the most experience with and 7 out of 10 times for most older (non big city-ones anyway) that is going to be a pump shotgun. A good old 870's is pretty darn tough and with a slug or 20" plain barrel they are very light, compact and with proper slugs (or a shot shell deliver amazing stopping power until the wad separates because of the mass at less than 7-10 yards) would likely stop most anything plus the platform allows for 4-5 rapid shots. Not that a bear would likely know but if you have to ever have to defend yourself from two legged predators just the universal message that I mean business that jacking the slide sends a vermin clearing message or at least it did in my front yard one upon a time.

Oh and if the case ever separates from the struts or it gets otherwise liberated you're only out $200-250 for a replacement and on a clays course you can get lots of fun practice for little cost.

Me, I love a 308, it's my first choice for a hunting round but not for defense, especially in a bolt gun...there is some great advise outside of my opinions here good luck...Your mileage may definitely vary.

OC

Survival or self-defence? (Admittedly, sometimes these are the same), but ....

For self-defence against bears, it's hard to beat a short 12-gauge. Besides the normal loads, "bear bangers" and rubber bullets are available that might save a un-educated bear's life.

Survival? These days you're not likely to be in the bush long enough to have to survive, but if you really need to survive you'll likely be eating ptarmigan or squirrels. .22 does the trick.

And for those of us who also hunt on occasion, and who don't want to carry a whole arsenal, a 45-70 Guide Gun with a low-power 'scope will bring down or deter most anything.

I won't comment on hand-guns. I'm sure they have their place, but in Canada the permitting process is pretty onerous so very few Canadians carry hand-guns in the bush.

I've seen a lot of bears here in grizzly country and (so far) they've always run long before they were a threat.

Ive carried a lot of different guns for bear protection. short 12 gage, 44 mag, 30-06, 45-70 sbl, SKS and now a glock 10MM loaded with double tap. I find with the diamond chest holster, i always have it on me, all the others would be set down for various reasons, sometimes out of arms reach. It has almost as much power as a 41 mag, 13 shots and extremely fast follow up ability. I know someone that was charged from 10 yards by a decent size brown. He got off 7 shots before it covered the ground and dropped it. Several guilds carry them now too. I still think of it as a last ditch effort and prefer to have the SBL or 12 gage if I know the bear will be thick.

FYI, an optimal load in a 10mm creates 750 lb/ft of muzzle energy. My 500mag develops 3100 lb/ft. Your choice.

I've had the opportunity to shoot a few bears with a shotgun. Nuisance black bears. News flash, a 12ga does not kill the bear or even make it crumble to the ground. They usually turn and run off. The same shot with a big bullet? Lights out. Big brown bears are hard to kill when you're out hunting to kill one. Get one pissed off and trying to kill me? No shotgun will get my vote.

I agree stewart, however if I had a 500, im sure it would not live within arms reach all the time for me. and I love the SBL myself. I did get to shoot a friends 500 the other day and have to say, it doesn't kick near as bad as I had heard... was quite nice. might be an excuse for another gun..

stewartb said:

News flash, a 12ga does not kill the bear or even make it crumble to the ground. They usually turn and run off.

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In the survive/die situation, I am ok with the bear turning off and going away, even wounded. No, not my desire, but it works if I am not getting mauled.

An mEaton, I said TWO barrels, not double barrel. Like landing gear- remove one and put the other on.

Of course, knowing you as the democratic liberal non-hunter no firearms guy I should have guessed you need lessons:lol::lol:;-);-);-)

So how is coyote chasing going?

Here's an image of a big brown bear skull freshly removed from the hide. I didn't shoot this guy, my hunting partner did. It was from a B&C bear that measured, if I remember right, a 29 5/16" skull. This fellows face was peppered with bird shot that had healed over. I'm guessing he got shot by a fisherman or got too close to a village. I'd prefer a rifle bullet but a 12 gauge slug would work well at close range.

When I'm camping in grizzly country in Montana I often bring an 870 pump with buckshot and slugs loaded in the magazine. Sometimes though I bring a M. 94 30-30 or a .357 mag revolver depending on what I'm planning to do while I'm out and how much walking.

It isn't too uncommon now to see a grizzly in western Montana. They're much more common than they were 25 years ago.

Black bears are numerous too. My nephew works as a spring bear guide and saw over 140 this past spring in our area.

stewartb said:

FYI, an optimal load in a 10mm creates 750 lb/ft of muzzle energy. My 500mag develops 3100 lb/ft. Your choice.

I've had the opportunity to shoot a few bears with a shotgun. Nuisance black bears. News flash, a 12ga does not kill the bear or even make it crumble to the ground. They usually turn and run off. The same shot with a big bullet? Lights out. Big brown bears are hard to kill when you're out hunting to kill one. Get one pissed off and trying to kill me? No shotgun will get my vote.

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News flash for you, Stewart: I've seen one shot kills by 12 gauge shotgun on both black bears and Brown bears. NOT EVERY ONE, FOR SURE, BUT GOOD SHOT PLACEMENT, AND/or rapid reload and fire works.

One black bear boar killed by a young lady who worked for me, and had never fired a gun before she went to work for us. She weighed 85 pounds, and that 870 about knocked her off her feet when she pulled the trigger. Brenneke slugs work well, but placement is always an issue. I wouldn't have wanted to piss off that young lady bad enough to encourage a gunfight....

I've killed two black bears with a shotgun, and they work.

Given the the choice, for brown bears, I'd use something heavier, but a pump action shotgun cycles really fast, and with Brenneckes, they hit hard. Most folks shoot pretty naturally with a pump shotgun.

if it's a bolt action, better plan a one shot kill. There are people who can reload fast with a bolt action, but they're rare and they shoot them a LOT. Brown bears are tough, no doubt. Again, shot placement is essential. Only one I've had to shoot was with a 458, which I didn't like, but it's what I was given.

As noted by AKTango, the 12 gauge offers lots of options: cracker shells, bear bangers, plastic bullets, slugs, and burd shot for a ptarmigan.......rapid reload and large capacity magazines.

whats not to like? Get some good slugs and practice. Our crews (and me)carried them in bear country day in and day out, and LIVED in country so thick with bears you saw bears every day.

And, we hardly ever had to shoot a bear.

MTV

Mike,

Every word I wrote is true. It's also true that I rarely "have" to shoot a bear. It's more accurate to say I "get" to shoot a bear. Since my daughter was bounced by a black bear in the front yard 20 years ago I've been steadfast to shoot any bear I see in that locale. The state sees fit to allow me to shoot two browns and three blacks every year with no closed season. I'm happy to oblige. After the state's bear thinning in 16B their presence has declined. That's fine by me. But my attitude remains unchanged. See one, shoot one.

I was in bear country yesterday. I had my 500 with me, as usual. On Friday I'll be back out, as usual. Bears will be more active now that the pinks and chums are arriving. Time to put the 45-70 in the go gear!

Mike, I hear lots of noise about Brennecke's. What makes them special? A 1 oz. chunk of lead only has so much wallop.

Brenneke Black Magics, not just any Brennekes.....