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Edo 1400's going on a 90hp J3/ boxing wires

J

jwh

Registered User
Hi All,
Just joined the list and I have two quick questions about Edo 1400's . I just bought this set which supposedly came off of a J3. I can't seem to see the part numbers on the struts to confirm they are correct. I want to confirm their lengths prior to installation on my J3. Does anybody have the lengths? I apologize if this topic had been covered before but I searched the archive with no luck. Also this set of 1400's came with boxing wires. It my understanding that boxing wires are not common when Edo 1400's are installed. Any opinions?
Thanks Jeff
 
Bolt hole center measurements, forward strut 32 1/4", aft 32 1/2" and diagonal 48 1/2" and no wires between the floats on my set. Jim
 
Thanks for the quick responses I appreciate it. The actual measurements are a great help. I guess the previous owner was looking for more rigidity when the boxing wires were installed? Has anyone heard of this being done before? Thanks again. Jeff
 
Years ago there was a place on Long Island NY called Raceway garage. They acquired EDO's remaining collection of 1400 parts. Eventually they made new 1400 floats and attached "pirated" data plates. The quality control of the castings which clamp the spreaders to the floats, left something to be desired. Perhaps you have a set of those floats? And perhaps a previous owner added the cross wires to prevent the clamps from breaking? This is just speculation on my part. I have seen Raceway's clamps break.

Do your floats have a data plate which says EDO-Aire? If so you have a set of those floats.
 
Once again thank you for the info. My data plate only says "EDO". Plus the date of manufacturer, model number etc. the stamped numbers sure look like they have been around since 1947! But who knows. Thanks again.
 
Our J3/PA11 has EDO 1400 floats with cross wires,they work great.

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Thanks for the picture of your Cub Ernie. It looks great. Skywagon is correct, I'm just trying to find out if anybody uses the "boxing" wires as well. Probably no use putting them on if they are not required. I guess I can carry my paddle on them!
 
Ok everyone, I've put about 15 hours on the J3 and I want to fine tune its takeoff performance. More specifically, I want ensure my float struts are the proper lengths for a J3. Presently my struts measure ( from bolt hole to hole) FWD 32.5ins, AFT 32.0 and diagonal 48.5 ins. I feel I'm working a little hard when it's on the step to get it to accelerate to flying speed. Any thoughts?
 
Your dimensions are close to the same as cruiser's. How much float piloting experience do you have? It sounds as though you are not finding the "sweet" spot when on the step. The sweet spot is the angle of the floats to the water which gives the least drag. Too much forward or too much aft stick pressure will generate a higher amount of drag. You want to be in the middle. While taxing at high speed on the step push and pull the stick to notice the amount of and the location of the different effects of drag. 90 horsepower ought to pull you right out of the water.
 
This is a picture of an Aeronca Chief on EDO 1400 floats. Notice the angle between the bottom of the wing and the top of the floats. Your Cub should be close to the same.
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I do see your point with regards to the wing and floats on that champ. I've just received some strut info from a float rebuilder on the east coast. It seems I may have a Pa11/Pa18 rig. The J3 rigs aft strut dimensions are 2.75 inches shorter than what I have on my plane.
 
A half inch difference in back plus a quarter inch difference in front may be significant. That's going to increase the relative angle between the floats and the wing. And, if you're trying to level the plane on the step, you may be pushing the toes of the floats into the water.

Try getting it on the step, then GENTLY easing the stick forward till you just feel the snub, then ease the stick back just a tiny bit from the snub....that's where it should accelerate.

Also, did you verify that both front struts are the same length, and both back struts are the same? I know, sounds dumb, but I know of one case like that.

MTV
 
Thanks mtv, I've been experimenting with what you suggest for the last 10 hours or so. It does come off easier some days ,but it still takes awhile. Yes the strut pairs are all the same length. Thanks for the advice, it's always appreciated. Jeff
 
jwh said:
I do see your point with regards to the wing and floats on that champ. I've just received some strut info from a float rebuilder on the east coast. It seems I may have a Pa11/Pa18 rig. The J3 rigs aft strut dimensions are 2.75 inches shorter than what I have on my plane.
Click to expand...

i thought the PA 11 and J 3 had he same fuselage?

If so, maybe your struts are for something else?

MTV
 
jwh you have not mentioned what prop you have.It does make a difference.90 should have a sensenich 76 AK 40-2.

Bill
 
Hi MTV and Bill

Mtv- the info i received about the differences between the J3 And Pa11 had to do with the nose tank in the J3 and not the Pa11 ( I've never flown a Pa11 so don't hang me if I'm wrong here! LOL) I guess that was the cause of the different strut sizes????

Bill_ I'm using a 74-41, it was a 74-43 but I had it re pitched to try and improve the performance.

It looks like my strut set up is too long in the aft. Info and dimensions from contacts both on the east coast and west coast seem to confirm this. So i will be shortening the aft struts and diagonals to their recommendations. Hopefully that gives me a better angle on the takeoff run.

Thanks again everyone.

Jeff
 
My old (FORMER) J3C, which now belongs to EViens who posted above, was converted to a PA-11-90-horse.

The j3 has a fuel tank behind the engine, the PA-11-90 horse has one 18 gallon tank in the left wing.
The J3s engine mount is at a different angle, the PA-11s is set for speed.
The J3 has a flat windscreen compared to the steeper angle of the PA-11 wind screen.
The knee bust bracing tubes under the J3 panel are absent in the Pa-11.
Some of the CG points are different between the two.

My old EDO 1400s did not have the boxing wires. There was no need for them. The regular flying wires both fore and aft work just fine and allow proper alignment of the floats.
It had an AK-76-2 prop ( 74 inches long) with a 40 inch pitch rate for floats. That lets you sail and dock better in strong winds as long as you have your idle set low enough. .
 

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Alex Clark said:
My old (FORMER) J3C, which now belongs to EViens who posted above, was converted to a PA-11-90-horse.The j3 has a fuel tank behind the engine, the PA-11-90 horse has one 18 gallon tank in the left wing.The J3s engine mount is at a different angle, the PA-11s is set for speed.The J3 has a flat windscreen compared to the steeper angle of the PA-11 wind screen. The knee bust bracing tubes under the J3 panel are absent in the Pa-11. Some of the CG points are different between the two. My old EDO 1400s did not have the boxing wires. There was no need for them. The regular flying wires both fore and aft work just fine and allow proper alignment of the floats. It had an AK-76-2 prop ( 74 inches long) with a 40 inch pitch rate for floats. That lets you sail and dock better in strong winds as long as you have your idle set low enough. .
Click to expand...
But, my point was that the FUSELAGE of the J-3 and the PA-11 are, for all intents and purposes, identical. The two aircraft are on the same type certificate. It seems to me that the struts for both should be the same.....maybe MTV
 
jwh said:
...It looks like my strut set up is too long in the aft. Info and dimensions from contacts both on the east coast and west coast seem to confirm this. So i will be shortening the aft struts and diagonals to their recommendations. Hopefully that gives me a better angle on the takeoff run.

Thanks again everyone.

Jeff
Click to expand...

Jeff, Before you start changing your strut lengths take a good look at Alex Clark's pictures. Sitting here looking at them on my computer the front and rear struts appear to be very close to the same length. And, the angle between the bottom of the wing and the top of the floats is small (very flat). Maybe Alex has a direct side view that he can share?
 
OK here are two side views of two Cubs.

One is the old Dragon Lady which was converted to a PA-11 configuration via Atlee Dodge STCs. It is on EDO 1400s. She now belongs to EViens.

The other is a J3C with a 90 horse and the original J3 engine mount angle. It is on EDO 1320s. . ....

You can also see the slight difference in the rudders. The PA-11 has a PA-18-95 style rudder while the J3 has the older and slightly smaller J3 rudder.

As you can see the aft strut appears long on the EDO 1400s but it is not...
 

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Alex Clark said:
OK here are two side views of two Cubs.

One is the old Dragon Lady which was converted to a PA-11 configuration via Atlee Dodge STCs. It is on EDO 1400s. She now belongs to EViens.

The other is a J3C with a 90 horse and the original J3 engine mount angle. It is on EDO 1320s. . ....

You can also see the slight difference in the rudders. The PA-11 has a PA-18-95 style rudder while the J3 has the older and slightly smaller J3 rudder.

As you can see the aft strut appears long on the EDO 1400s but it is not...
Click to expand...

But both J3 and Pa11 had a flat back rudder when they left the factory.

Glenn
 
Here is a photo that shows the rear strut with the plane out of the water. DO NOT start whacking off pieces of your struts until you see if they work in the current configuration.
 

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But both J3 and Pa11 had a flat back rudder when they left the factory.
Click to expand...
Roger that, I was simply pointing out why it looked different. That PA-11 never left the factory as a PA-11. She was born again...
 
With regards to the comment about it having the same rigging as the PA11/PA18 and not the J3. I think what's being said is that even though the fuselages are generally the same, there may have been differences made in the strut work to compensate for the negative thrust angle of the motor mounts on the 11 and 18. That's a problem I have right now. I have a J3 on 1320's with rigging that places the rear strut slightly aft of the rear spreader bar when you look at it straight on from either side of the aircraft. That is were it should be for a J3. On my other J3 however, I just installed a set of 1320's I got from another fellow that used them on his J3 and the rear strut is forward of the rear spreader bar. I only noticed the difference while taxing. I had a hard time keeping the front of floats above water at gross weight. They really wanted to plow and would actually allow water to roll up onto the float deck if I didn't keep a solid back pressure on the stick. I started eyeballing and measuring and discovered the difference. I talked to the previous owner and he claimed that he had the same problem for years and his current set seams to have more of an aft configuration as the front of the floats aren't a problem but the rear of the floats are easier to sink now. I've measured the strut lengths on both and there is major differences. I'll have to shorten the rear and diagonal and replace the fronts with longer ones to get it right.

Just some observations,
FM4
 
Good post Ron, I am not in possession of any 1320 or 1400 data other than hard copies of the parts drawings which are available from:
http://www.kenmoreairharbor.com/models.html
One should remember that these float models have been around for 70 or so years with a large number built in the late 1940s to be installed on many different models of airplanes with numerous different lengths of struts. Over the years they have been sold and resold, parts interchanged between different models etc. Unless you can get a copy of the drawings which gives the proper strut lengths, all of our numbers here are purely speculation. Those here who have been long time owners of like models, are you absolutely certain that your parts are correct? That the part numbers match the drawing numbers? If you can be certain, then please measure your struts and pass them on to Jeff.

The 1320 struts attach to the floats with ball ends which are keyed to the floats in a common position according to the EDO drawing. These ball receptacles hold the spreaders in position. Someone has altered one of those sets of 1320s. The 1400s have bolt on fittings which could be more easily altered. With both floats the positioning of the floats to the plane is determined by strut dimension differences.
 
Looking at Alex's picture, the rigging it's self looks like it might be ok but it does appear to look a little flat on the floats. Looking at the bottom of the wing in relation to the deck of floats. He might be right about having to just shorten the rears. I had a case once where if I tried to rotate off the step the heals of the floats would touch first and that would bleed the airspeed off very quickly. I had to walk it off every time. I removed about 1/2"-3/4" off the rears and then it could be rotated clean off the step. 1/2"-3/4" is just on memory. It was what ever measurement allowed the upper attachment fitting in the strut to be moved down one bolt hole and a new hole drilled to reinstall the bolt or rivet (bolt in my case). I was also involved with a PA11 that was a pretty good motor boat. You could get about 55mph on the water no problem but you had to pop it off every time. It took an unusual amount of back pressure to rotate it clean off the step but at 55mph it was more than interested in flying/climbing when it did break the water. Especially with the extra back pressure combined with the speed. That aircraft was rigged to far forward on the floats at that time. I would drop a tape measure from the trailing edge down to the top of the float deck and compare that with the same type of measurement from just under the front spar area of the wing to the top deck of the float. I don't recall what the difference was but 2.5" sort of comes to mind. I could likely check this later today or maybe others could post it. I'd even be interested in comparing with others aswell.
 
IMG_0424.JPGHi everyone, As you guys can see from this side shot of my J3, the angle from the float deck to wing is pretty flat. As Ron has mentioned, I'm having to walk the plane off most times. I'm leaning towards shortening the rear and diagonal to correct this. Thanks for all the opinions. Jeff
 

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I put some tracing paper over your photo and traced the bottom of the wing and the top of your float and it looks like you have at least 2 degrees of attack. Have you checked the difference with a digital level?

Glenn
 
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