Edo 1400's going on a 90hp J3/ boxing wires
- Thread starter jwh
- Start date
Ron Graham
Registered User
My apologies Jeff, I thought it was Alex asking seeing as I was fixated on his picture. I should have reviewed this detail before commenting. The picture you just posted is pretty though, it explains alot. I think your're on the right track and you'll have it performing next summer. Looks like you have the -12 engine. What prop are you running?
Ron
Ron
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Glenn,
I did the same with a protractor and it appears to me to be about 3 or 4 degrees. I think that is a little flat for a standard Cub. My overpowered, long flapped Super Cub is about 3-3.5 degrees. Without flaps a little more angle may be desirable accompanied with a top/cruise speed penalty.
Jeff,
If you want to increase the angle of attack on the wing without cutting struts, place a thick spacer/washer between the bottom of the front float fitting and the deck of the float. This will do the same thing as shortening the rear strut. Another thing that effects the rotating capabilities is the step location which is controlled by the length of the diagonal strut. Your picture seems to show that yours is in the correct position. Generally the rear strut is vertical on a Cub as is yours. If the step was moved out of position this angle would be changed.
I did the same with a protractor and it appears to me to be about 3 or 4 degrees. I think that is a little flat for a standard Cub. My overpowered, long flapped Super Cub is about 3-3.5 degrees. Without flaps a little more angle may be desirable accompanied with a top/cruise speed penalty.
Jeff,
If you want to increase the angle of attack on the wing without cutting struts, place a thick spacer/washer between the bottom of the front float fitting and the deck of the float. This will do the same thing as shortening the rear strut. Another thing that effects the rotating capabilities is the step location which is controlled by the length of the diagonal strut. Your picture seems to show that yours is in the correct position. Generally the rear strut is vertical on a Cub as is yours. If the step was moved out of position this angle would be changed.
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
I've had both 1320 and 1400 EDOs but not on the same plane. My opinion is that the 1400 don't perform as well as the 1320s do. The heel angle seems higher on the 1320s and gives you a few more degrees to get the air working under the wing. If you are flying along side a J3/1320 it's going to beat you off the water every time. Do your 1400s have the booster plates on the bottom?
Glenn
Glenn
Alex Clark
Registered User
Life Long Alaskan
A couple-three years ago I conducted a few take-off tests against my buddy's J3-90 horse (on EDO 1320s) as compared to the PA-11-90 on EDO-1400s.
I flew both on the same day from the same lakes.
His 1320s and maybe his engine angle helped the J3 off the water a little faster. Maye 10-15% less distance with me flying.
Plus his lower 1320s helped his plane step-turn much better.
His initial climb off the water was faster for the first 50-75 feet of altitude.
The PA-11 with EDO 1400s was lighter and had a better legal useful load. Around 50-75 pounds better.
The higher struts on the EDO 1400s gave more propeller clearance in rougher water and did not throw water up on the windshield.
The PA-11 configuration with the slightly flatter EDO 1400 mounts cruised at a higher speed.
The Vy climb of the EDO 1400s mounted on the PA-11 was better.
I flew both on the same day from the same lakes.
His 1320s and maybe his engine angle helped the J3 off the water a little faster. Maye 10-15% less distance with me flying.
Plus his lower 1320s helped his plane step-turn much better.
His initial climb off the water was faster for the first 50-75 feet of altitude.
The PA-11 with EDO 1400s was lighter and had a better legal useful load. Around 50-75 pounds better.
The higher struts on the EDO 1400s gave more propeller clearance in rougher water and did not throw water up on the windshield.
The PA-11 configuration with the slightly flatter EDO 1400 mounts cruised at a higher speed.
The Vy climb of the EDO 1400s mounted on the PA-11 was better.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
This may be a clue to the better performance of the 1320s. With the thrust line moment to the bottom of the floats being greater on the 1400s, the drag component could have a greater effect on the performance. There would be a requirement for more up elevator on the 1400 airplane to counteract the extra moment. To counteract this it may be advantageous to add ballast/baggage to pull the CG more aft.
Alex Clark
Registered User
Life Long Alaskan
That and also that the EDO 1400s are longer in the after body of the floats. Thus more prone to tail drag unless the proper water departure technique is employed.
Somewhat like the difference when flying a C-180 on EDO 2960s versus flying a C-180 on EDO 2870s...
But as a wise man named Pete once told me, the planes with a trimming horizontal stabilizer, like the Cubs, can be trimmed out so the elevator does not need as much upward deflection. ( See Cub Photo)
You can compared that to how much elevator deflection ( AND MORE DRAG) is needed with the C-172 photo, since the poor C-172 does not have a flying tail.
Somewhat like the difference when flying a C-180 on EDO 2960s versus flying a C-180 on EDO 2870s...
But as a wise man named Pete once told me, the planes with a trimming horizontal stabilizer, like the Cubs, can be trimmed out so the elevator does not need as much upward deflection. ( See Cub Photo)
You can compared that to how much elevator deflection ( AND MORE DRAG) is needed with the C-172 photo, since the poor C-172 does not have a flying tail.
Attachments
Hi Cubdriver, Yes my 1400's have the booster plates just like yours.
Skywagon, I've been experimenting with a approx 40 lb ballast in the cargo to see if that makes a diff when I'm alone... not sure yet
Alex, I've been using trim to help me onto the step then taking it off as the t/o run continues.... seems to get up and go better
Skywagon, I've been experimenting with a approx 40 lb ballast in the cargo to see if that makes a diff when I'm alone... not sure yet
Alex, I've been using trim to help me onto the step then taking it off as the t/o run continues.... seems to get up and go better
Alex Clark
Registered User
Life Long Alaskan
Without any real weight in the rear, my Glassy Water take-off Run technique with the EDO 1400s was to find the ever changing sweet spot, get to 40 mph, pop one float 6 inches up and then quickly pop the next float 6 inches up, then accelerate while a foot off the water before climbing out at 55mph for tight obstacles or 60 mph for normal climb out. It would climb at 50 mph, but that did not leave much airspeed for evasive maneuvers.
PA-11 Stall Speed: Vs
38.0 mph With Wings level
38.2 mph 10° Bank Angle
39.2 mph 20° Bank Angle
40.7 mph 30° Bank Angle
43.5 mph 40° Bank Angle
47.5 mph 50° Bank Angle
53.7 mph 60° Bank Angle
65.0 mph 70° Bank Angle
91.2 mph 80° Bank Angle
By the by,,,,, if properly trimmed out, ( with a proper CG as Skywagon suggest) a J3, Super Cub, PA-11, or darn near whatever, will eventually fly itself off the water with almost no pilot input.
PA-11 Stall Speed: Vs
38.0 mph With Wings level
38.2 mph 10° Bank Angle
39.2 mph 20° Bank Angle
40.7 mph 30° Bank Angle
43.5 mph 40° Bank Angle
47.5 mph 50° Bank Angle
53.7 mph 60° Bank Angle
65.0 mph 70° Bank Angle
91.2 mph 80° Bank Angle
By the by,,,,, if properly trimmed out, ( with a proper CG as Skywagon suggest) a J3, Super Cub, PA-11, or darn near whatever, will eventually fly itself off the water with almost no pilot input.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
I have almost zero experience with 1320 and 1400s, however I do understand the 2870/2960 comparison.
Jimscub
Registered User
Cochrane, Ontario,Canada
Here is the measurements I took off my old J3 with EDO 1400s. These are all bolt center to center. Front strut 32 1/2". Rear strut 31 3/4". Diagonal 48 1/4". These measurements differ slightly from the ones in the first post so I will double check them today and make sure. Jim
RaisedByWolves
FRIEND
Tx
Quick question, anyone happen to have written down the bolt length for attaching for the clamps to the spreaders, or struts to the floats? It would save some time measuring them. Also, is there a source for the brace wires? Called kenmore/edo and they don't stock or make them. Mine are pitted pretty bad. Any preference on the pump out locations, saw one set that had them on the covers, seems like that would be the quickest way to install.
Thanks
Tom
Thanks
Tom
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Are the covers just the old 1/4 turn to remove? If so skip the pump outs. Make sure the floats are tight before you put them together. You won't need pump outs. If you still want to put them in, get the spun aluminum cups from Kenmore. The plastic ones wear out and leak. Do not put them in the caps as it will be difficult to be certain the suction hose is properly located. If they are not positioned properly you will think that the compartment is pumped out and there still could be a lot of water in there.Place them in the deck over the lowest point of the compartment.
RaisedByWolves
FRIEND
Tx
they are the newer round with a screw on them, much like the 2000's. Edo wants $10 for the plastic, but $70 for aluminum. Lake and air has the aluminum for $11
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Tom,
If by brace wires, you mean the stainless steel wires, you may have to go to a vendor, and order by length. The TC for those floats was sold to an outfit in upstate NY years ago named Raceway Engineering, or something like that. The guy who owned the company is gone now.
MacWhyte is about the only source of these wires now. They're in Scotland. Aircraft Spruce may have them in stock, they're not necessarily specific to floats, but you may have to special order.
Also check with Eddie Peck and Doug Ronan both in Canada, they carry a lot of float parts.
I agree with Pete, DO NOT install the pump out tubes in the inspection covers. Put them right above the lowest point in the float compartment, usually that's close to a bulkhead. But, they need to be in the low point, where water accumulates.
Poke around on this web site for the procedure to seal the floats. It's not that tough to do. Basically, you make an adapter for your vacuum cleaner to fit in the pump outs. Put the hose on the discharge side of the vacuum, and put a VERY light pressure on each compartment. Use a bottle of soapy water with a sprayer to spray all the seams, and look for bubbles. Mark any leaks with a marker.
MTV
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
I wonder what did happen with the parts which Raceway (Motors?) had? Maybe Rich on LI knows? Raceway used to make new 1400s with some poor quality castings and invalid data plates. Someone absconded with some later EDO-AIR data tag blanks which Raceway used for his "new" floats, strictly illegal. I was told by JJ Frey of EDO that they wished they had not sold him those parts.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
I bought a set of the aluminum ones from Kenmore for my 185. I doubt they were anywhere near that much. Do you have a lathe? Perhaps it is time to learn spinning? Once you get the knack for it, you can whip them out quickly.
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
cubdriver2
FRIEND
