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Thread: Wirlwind STOL ground adjustable propeller

  1. #41
    lvgbr's Avatar
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    Patti
    Tested today
    PA18 with O320 A2B (150hp)
    With 82" GA200L-STOL propeller
    Brakes ON, full throttle, static RPM:
    Pitch 13° RPM 2240
    Pitch 14.5° RPM 2100

    In both cases, on flight will reach 2500 / 2600 RPM?
    Correct?
    Tks for support.

    FD from Argentina

  2. #42
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    How are you guys liking the GA200L props? How are they holding up?

  3. #43
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Is there a video showing how to do the pitch change?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  4. #44

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    With an "angle cube" (guts of a digital level) you can change pitch anywhere. Before angle cubes I would remove the prop, put it on a table and use a selection of aluminum wedges. Now I don't bother to remove the prop or even level the fuselage too closely, it doesn't matter. If you want a change in RPM, make a change in pitch. Just measure and average the existing angles first. You don't need to level the blade you're working on too closely either. Just find a stick to bring the blade down to so they are the same. If someone asks about absolute numbers, only then fuse and blade must be leveled. I've used this method on Powerfin and GSC, just ordered a Whirlwind.
    What's a go-around?

  5. #45
    Aktahoe's Avatar
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    Bump

    A lot has evolved in two years. Updated?

    How are folks like the GA vs Constant speed WW (Ohio)?

    Love my Catto but I'm just not getting the rpm. Seems like the constant speed is the way to go for me.
    The 80' WW prop seems like I'm going to add 26lbs on the nose. That's what I keep coming up with for new weight.

    Any thoughts to this? The BCSC Rev2 has a heavier tail and it's 18" longer. The extra weight up front may not be a bad thing. Will see

    AKT

  6. #46
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aktahoe View Post
    How are folks like the GA vs Constant speed WW (Ohio)?

    Any thoughts to this? The BCSC Rev2 has a heavier tail and it's 18" longer. The extra weight up front may not be a bad thing. Will see

    AKT
    I love the 200G ground adjustable WW on a 180 hp IO-360. It is a powerful puller when set at low pitch, and a high cruiser when set at a higher pitch. It is easy to change the pitch with a couple of supplied allen wrenches. If I could install a governor in my plane I would use the constant speed version. The engine will take the governor, there is some tubing in the fuselage which is in the way in my fuselage. If your fuselage has the standard Piper location for the tubing behind the firewall you should be good to go. Alternatively if you need to get your engine anyway, get one which mounts the governor on the forward part of the crankcase. I tried an Aeromatic which would turn up 2700 on take off. It was no better than the WW which was only turning 2400. Top speeds were the same. It's the shape of the blades which supply the performance. You can also feel the drag when the throttle is closed.
    N1PA

  7. #47

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    Kevin,

    you already know the go-to prop for most guys with planes similar to yours is the WWA 200A constant speed. Compared to WWA Ohio's ground adjustable it's the same weight and essentially the same price other than $1100.00 for a governor, assuming you have a hollow crank and provisions to install a governor. Whirlwind Propellor in California makes the much lighter and less expensive ground adjustable prop but that's a very different animal. You need to define which Whirl Wind division you're talking about. You should talk to a WWA engineer about your application. Little things like HP output, displacement, compression ratio, and counter balanced crank or not make a difference.

    SB

  8. #48

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    I can't wait to give this one a spin.




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  9. #49
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    You're gonna love it Stewart!
    N1PA

  10. #50
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I love the 200G ground adjustable WW on a 180 hp IO-360. It is a powerful puller when set at low pitch, and a high cruiser when set at a higher pitch. It is easy to change the pitch with a couple of supplied allen wrenches. If I could install a governor in my plane I would use the constant speed version. The engine will take the governor, there is some tubing in the fuselage which is in the way in my fuselage. If your fuselage has the standard Piper location for the tubing behind the firewall you should be good to go. Alternatively if you need to get your engine anyway, get one which mounts the governor on the forward part of the crankcase. I tried an Aeromatic which would turn up 2700 on take off. It was no better than the WW which was only turning 2400. Top speeds were the same. It's the shape of the blades which supply the performance. You can also feel the drag when the throttle is closed.
    why not just use a ski pump & valve to adjust it from inside cabin? ya, i know it would not be perfect/follow power, but it would get the job done... governors just a oil pump....
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  11. #51
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Mike,
    I had thought of cutting the fly weight portion off the top of a governor to make it fit. Then using a lever to move the pilot valve. The governor which I have didn't lend itself to that very well. I also thought of a control valve such as is used on the following prop. A similar prop is approved on the PA-12 TC which I have flown. It was a good prop until it was AD noted out of existence.
    TC P-869 Sensenich model CS-3F
    NOTE 3. Pitch Control. (1) Eligible with Sensenich hydro-control valve Model L-2160 with propeller when installed on Lycoming O-235-C1 or O-290-D engine and Model F-2164 when installed on Franklin 6A4-165 engine.(Constant speed feature with governor, although approved, was never incorporated).
    N1PA

  12. #52
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Mike,
    I had thought of cutting the fly weight portion off the top of a governor to make it fit. Then using a lever to move the pilot valve. The governor which I have didn't lend itself to that very well. I also thought of a control valve such as is used on the following prop. A similar prop is approved on the PA-12 TC which I have flown. It was a good prop until it was AD noted out of existence.
    TC P-869 Sensenich model CS-3F
    NOTE 3. Pitch Control. (1) Eligible with Sensenich hydro-control valve Model L-2160 with propeller when installed on Lycoming O-235-C1 or O-290-D engine and Model F-2164 when installed on Franklin 6A4-165 engine.(Constant speed feature with governor, although approved, was never incorporated).
    probably a simple thing to make these days... your garmin? or such unit, KNOWS RPM, MP etc.. couple an Aux channel off it, to a generic Servo electric motor controller thats running the oil pump... no need for mechanical pump/feedback...
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  13. #53
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I like the way you think outside the box Mike. This airplane has minimal electric instruments without any electric generating device. I don't think that it would be a good idea to have an electric oil pump in this system. The electric fuel pump is only used to prime for starting and for an emergency should the mechanical pump fail. If the WW prop will change pitch on just engine oil pressure and blade twisting moment, then a simple modulating valve ought to work. At the moment this project is low on my priority list. With the ground adjustable set at an intermediate setting the Cub will clear a 50 foot tree in 600 feet out of the water (on a good day). Though with the ability to change pitch in flight the rate of climb could be as much as 600 feet per minute higher and the cruise speed would be about 12-15 mph higher with the corresponding increase in fuel flow.
    N1PA

  14. #54

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    Maximum effort for minimum return. You'd be better off with a governor and the constant speed benefits it provides.

  15. #55
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    That is true Stewart except that the tubing behind my firewall is in the way. I checked it out before I ordered the 200G. The governor mounts on the accessory case and requires cutting a hole in the firewall. As I recall from your photos, your governor mounts on the forward crankcase?
    N1PA

  16. #56

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    The governor I got from WWA is smaller than those I've had on other planes. I'm not where I can verify size but in my memory the governor is smaller than the alternator on my accessory case. But yes, my engine has a governor mount up front.


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  17. #57
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Stewart,
    The governor is not the entire issue. There is also a drive assembly which goes on the accessory case between the governor and the case. If this drive wasn't needed perhaps the governor would fit. Unfortunately they are a package. In your case the drive assembly is part of your crankcase. I'm not even certain that your drive was an option on the four cylinder engines when mine was built? That drive first appeared on the six cylinder engines. Unfortunately when Backcountry built my fuselage they placed the tubing in the fuselage behind the firewall in an X shape instead of the standard V. I wish that they had not. This was just enough to line the tubing up with the governor preventing me from enjoying the advantages of the constant speed prop.
    N1PA

  18. #58
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Stewart,
    The governor is not the entire issue. There is also a drive assembly which goes on the accessory case between the governor and the case. If this drive wasn't needed perhaps the governor would fit. Unfortunately they are a package. In your case the drive assembly is part of your crankcase. I'm not even certain that your drive was an option on the four cylinder engines when mine was built? That drive first appeared on the six cylinder engines. Unfortunately when Backcountry built my fuselage they placed the tubing in the fuselage behind the firewall in an X shape instead of the standard V. I wish that they had not. This was just enough to line the tubing up with the governor preventing me from enjoying the advantages of the constant speed prop.
    Simpilist fix, yank engine and dog leg the tube(s)?? Or longer engine mount if CG can stand it.

    Can a person run one off a vac pump pad? And plumb it where it needs to go?

  19. #59
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Yes Mike, That could work. In this case the airplane was intended to be an experimental quick assembly Super Cub. I've spent my life modifying and repairing, this one was to be an assembly job to get me a Cub as quick as possible so that I could enjoy flying it rather than working on it. Being 76 years young I just want to fly, not lighting torches and twisting wrenches.

    Running it on a vacuum pump drive would require the oil passages to be able to match up with the governor adapter. Without checking, I don't think that is possible. That location may conflict with the top cross tube? There is an adapter to run both a vacuum pump and a hydraulic pump on the vac pump pad.
    N1PA
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  20. #60

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    Hello I just bought the ground adjustable whirlwind for my back country 180hp cub. It has 31’s on it and was hoping someone can suggest a good (degree) to set the blades? Any help would be appreciated
    thanks !

  21. #61
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    For lack of any other input, you can do it the old fashioned way: take a wild assed guess, eyeballing another prop to get you in the ballpark, and then do a static run up. No real need to mess with a torque wrench, just a quick and dirty test, on the ground. It took me 4 tries before I nailed the static I wanted, and just an hour or so. Also not necessary to get all anal about the blades being EXACTLY the same pitch, save that and the torque wrench for the final setup. Same principle as the way we Rotax guys do it, crude but it works.
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  22. #62

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    Ok thanks I appreciate that appreciate it

  23. #63
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    12.8 for climb
    15 cruise
    Ymmv
    Jm

  24. #64
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    Do you have the 78" , 80" ,or 82 " ?
    I have a 78" and with it I'd start at 16 deg.

  25. #65
    courierguy's Avatar
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    I'm in the process of getting a new to me used WW 75" 3 blader dialed in for my Rotax Rans S-7S combo. A smaller dia then my usual 78" Prince 2 blade, for my winter flying. A few times I've moved a little snow with the Prince so a bit less dia will be helpful.

    It didn't occur to me though, until I was perched on the edge of my ski ramp with the tail release still hooked and the engine idling, that I had better make real sure I didn't have a brain fart and set it up backasswards, so I shut down and held the Prince up next to it and determined FOR SURE that everything looked about right! As it was the snow was sticky, and I used every bit of my 400' of runway before finally getting unstuck. Testing a new prop on a sloped short strip on skis is not ideal but so far so good. Subsequent landings elsewhere showed the poor takeoff performance was indeed due to unusually sticky snow. But I still was able to determine that 1 more degree of pitch may be helpful, and in an easy hour, counting taking the cowling off and putting the tools away, made the adjustment. WW vaguely says "level" the prop while you adjust pitch, my scimitar blades made that problematic so I just eyeballed level more or less, and found that my chin was the same height as the blade tip. So I used that to determine the same height/arc of rotation of the blades as I adjusted each, otherwise I would have used a stick, anything to serve as a jig to keep it all consistent. FWIW, I'm at 16 degrees, different planes and engines but I guess similar aero demands of the propellers.

  26. #66
    tcraft128's Avatar
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    I have a WW ground adjustable, 82" for o360, that is for sale, great prop, just went in a different direction. PM me if you are interested.
    Turning money into noise since 1996

    Our Build here

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  27. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcraft128 View Post
    I have a WW ground adjustable, 82" for o360, that is for sale, great prop, just went in a different direction. PM me if you are interested.
    Thanks but just bought one and had installed yesterday. Gained 9mph after three adjustments. And sooooo smooth!

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcraft128 View Post
    I have a WW ground adjustable, 82" for o360, that is for sale, great prop, just went in a different direction. PM me if you are interested.
    Please tell us what direction you've went ?

  29. #69
    tcraft128's Avatar
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    Oli, I am sticking with Catto(s) diameter is king for my mission.
    Turning money into noise since 1996

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  30. #70

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    I’m interested in your prop

  31. #71

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    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	08D310FC-0B99-4E32-8395-C1C14D5AE0A4.jpeg 
Views:	60 
Size:	333.9 KB 
ID:	53672I posted this in another thread but thought would be helpful here. An easy way to set the blade angle by making a jig to hold a smart level. The blade profile was set with the provided Whirlwind protractor to 0 degrees and now the level measures the angle change from 0 degree reference.
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  32. #72
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    Or get the sensenich and toss out the angle finders, protractors and jigs. Change pitch in a couple minutes and be on your way.
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  33. #73

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    I have purchased a Sensenich ground adjustable prop from a dealer in Soldotna late last year with the understanding from the dealer that the STC would be issued to the purchased prop for my Super Cub once the STC was finalized. The most recent communication I have heard is that Sensenich is not going to issue STC to any props sold before the certification date.

  34. #74

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    I'll be interested to see how that 3-blade works with the 390. What's it weigh?

  35. #75
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    I'm checking in with Sensenich asap to get some props brought in to sell and I'm curious how they're handling that. It's normally pretty rare to be able to pre-sell an item and then have a later STC be applicable to it. I'll check with them and see if that's possible.

  36. #76

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    I'll be interested to see how that 3-blade works with the 390. What's it weigh?

    22 pounds.
    Prop set at 14.7 degrees got 2350 static for its first full run up today.
    Ready for inspection!
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  37. #77

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    So 25# lighter than my constant speed. Nice. So is 2350 your target or is that set course for break-in?

    One of my prop specification head-scratcher questions will be answered soon. If your fixed pitch prop static is 2350 and mine is 2700 which has more static thrust and how does that translate to acceleration to takeoff? Then there's cruise speed, fuel burn, etc. It should be interesting. When's the first flight? Enjoy!!!
    Last edited by stewartb; 01-22-2021 at 08:38 AM.

  38. #78
    akavidflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litecub View Post
    I have purchased a Sensenich ground adjustable prop from a dealer in Soldotna late last year with the understanding from the dealer that the STC would be issued to the purchased prop for my Super Cub once the STC was finalized. The most recent communication I have heard is that Sensenich is not going to issue STC to any props sold before the certification date.
    As did I. I was also told by Sensenich that they would be doing the testing on my plane when they were here doing the testing on the 18 and that ended up not happening. The initial discussion was that they would "take care of" the guys that had bought them prior to the STC as nothing was is is changing in the manufacturing process or QC of the components. That is yet to be seen, but regardless, I still love the prop and the ease of changing pitch and the performance increase I got over the Borer.

  39. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    So 25# lighter than my constant speed. Nice. So is 2350 your target or is that set course for break-in?

    One of my prop specification head-scratcher questions will be answered soon. If your fixed pitch prop static is 2350 and mine is 2700 which has more static thrust and how does that translate to acceleration to takeoff? Then there's cruise speed, fuel burn, etc. It should be interesting. When's the first flight? Enjoy!!!

    The prop is set course for break-in and awaiting inspection for special airworthy certificate. Not going to taxi test as I think it would fly before going 50 yards!

  40. #80

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    I promise it will. My first flight was at Birchwood, so lots of space to get it off the ground and test controls with runway ahead of me. Short takeoff wasn't the priority but the plane leaped into the air. First flights are a mix of excitement and uncertainty. So much fun!
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

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