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Thread: AirGuide publications out of business??

  1. #1
    PerryB's Avatar
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    AirGuide publications out of business??

    Two months ago I ordered two Flight Guides, Northwest and Southwest. Northwest was listed as in stock and the other on backorder. They immediately charged my credit for both and charged me shipping and sales tax. I have received neither book, their phone does not answer during the advertised business hours and their voice message box is full. Doesn't look too promising and a very poor way to conduct business. Also have not responded to emails.

  2. #2
    Ursa Major's Avatar
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    The last time I ordered a flight guide from them a year ago it took seemingly forever to arrive. It finally did, but I was so disapointed with their slow processing that I declined the offer to renew. I'm done with them.

  3. #3
    GumpAir's Avatar
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    Same here. Ordered two, got one fairly quickly, and now months later... Nothing.

    Gump

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    randylervold's Avatar
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    I think they might be out of business, check their web site www.flightguide.com, nothing.
    Randy Lervold

  5. #5
    slowmover's Avatar
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    Aviation Consumer says they've closed up shop. The only way to get your $$ back is probably to dispute it via your credit card company.

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    randylervold's Avatar
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    Too bad, end of an era really. I miss those little brown books, the new style just weren't as useful.
    Randy Lervold

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    n40ff's Avatar
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    ".......end of an era....."

    Indeed! Used them when I first started flying, at least 40 years now...... I suppose my own era is becoming more and more problematic too.....

    Jack

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    When I used to instruct, if a student opened one of those little brown books, I would grab it and throw it out the window.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    When I used to instruct, if a student opened one of those little brown books, I would grab it and throw it out the window.
    I suppose you've got a good reason for that?

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    Yes as a light plane pilot you should be able to get everything you need from a sectional and determine landing direction from the tower or a flyover of the segmented circle with an uncontrolled field. After that everything else is fluff.

    What has put Airguide out of business is apps like ForeFlight. I would not mind a student using the chart image of an app like ForeFlight, but I would prohibit use of things like extended rwy centerlines, landing direction aid etc, until they demonstrate absolute competency in the minimalist mode. Likewise I do not allow things like holding pattern computers etc on instrument students.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    Yes as a light plane pilot you should be able to get everything you need from a sectional and determine landing direction from the tower or a flyover of the segmented circle with an uncontrolled field. After that everything else is fluff.

    What has put Airguide out of business is apps like ForeFlight. I would not mind a student using the chart image of an app like ForeFlight, but I would prohibit use of things like extended rwy centerlines, landing direction aid etc, until they demonstrate absolute competency in the minimalist mode. Likewise I do not allow things like holding pattern computers etc on instrument students.
    And do you wack 'em on the knuckles with a plotter when they make a mistake?
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    And do you wack 'em on the knuckles with a plotter when they make a mistake?
    I don't think he's a Nun.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    And do you wack 'em on the knuckles with a plotter when they make a mistake?
    In primary training it is "wax on, wax off". If you do not learn the elements, the elementry will escape you and reflexive knowledge of the elementry is the key to survival WTSHTF, not some cheat sheet you have to thumb through. As a chief instructor, and examiner in a Part 141 school every instructor knew the syllabus and curriculum. Yeah, you can keep your cheat book in your bag, heck study it before if you think you know where I will have you plan, but pull it out and it goes out the window so I don't have to give you a down.

    As for being nun, I was raised Lutheran, same great God, less guilt unless you cheat. Then you're going to hell.
    Last edited by GeeBee; 05-13-2014 at 08:49 PM.

  14. #14
    jwmusgrove's Avatar
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    "When I used to instruct, if a student opened one of those little brown books, I would grab it and throw it out the window."
    Try that around here, you might be chasing the little brown book right out the window.
    Last edited by jwmusgrove; 05-15-2014 at 06:00 AM.

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    n40ff's Avatar
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    "............. Yeah, you can keep your cheat book in your bag, heck study it before if you think you know where I will have you plan, but pull it out and it goes out the window so I don't have to give you a down................"


    When you first made your comment, I was just deer in the headlights...? But after going around the block, you finally make sense......well, some sense anyway......

    Oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwmusgrove View Post
    "When I used to instruct, if a student opened one of those little brown books, I would grab it and throw it out the window."
    Try that around here, you might be chasing the little brown book right out the window.
    Don't know where "around here" is, but I've worked everywhere in the US from Alaska to Florida, been on every continent in the world, heard the "around here" every where. Only place I have not heard it is Antartica. Some things never change.

  17. #17
    jwmusgrove's Avatar
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    Not nice to take things that belong to others, and throw them out the window.
    Even worse to brag about it.

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    PerryB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
    Aviation Consumer says they've closed up shop. The only way to get your $$ back is probably to dispute it via your credit card company.
    Thats what I did about a month ago, I got the refund with no counter-dispute. That sure was a crappy thing for them to do though.

  19. #19
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwmusgrove View Post
    Not nice to take things that belong to others, and throw them out the window.
    Even worse to brag about it.
    Agree completely.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwmusgrove View Post
    Not nice to take things that belong to others, and throw them out the window.
    Even worse to brag about it.
    One, at the time the Practical Test Guide stated the only acceptable references were a sectional or WAC chart and the AIM A/FD. Use of a non approved publication would result in a pink slip. That would be even more crappy.

    Two, this was in an FAA approved school. Within such a setting, every instructor knows the rules, standards and expectations via a variety of conduits including the syllabus, written bullitens etc.

    Three, if the instructor failed to brief his student on the fact that such material was not approved, he bought the student a new one. The price being a proper fine for failing to follow the school standards.

  21. #21
    PerryB's Avatar
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    This thread was about how Airguide is out of business and how we miss the familiar old brown book. It was a great source of information for things like hotels, restaurants and rental cars. They also just happened to have a lot of useful airport information such as glider, parachute and ag ops. Gee Bee, is there some particular reason you are fixated on hating these things??

  22. #22

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    Never said I hate these things, although the information is contained in more compact and usable formats such as ForeFlight which is why AirGuide is Tango Uniform. I simply pointed out while helpful, they are not allowed for use in Approved School syllabus nor flight tests and thus I was reduced to either chucking them overboard or failing a student on his check. Look after you get your license, you can use whatever publication suits your fancy (unless you are part 121 or 135).

    Look right now I have two apps on my Ipad, One is ForeFlight Mobile, the other my employer's provided app by a well known charting company. Now I like the ForeFlight app better. Easier to navigate, easier to read, wonderful graphics and I can highlight important features. What do you think would happen if I pulled up the ILS 31R to JFK in ForeFlight vs. the company app while on a check ride or even in every day line flying? Got some bad news for you if you think that is ok. An FAA approved school is no different. You have what the syllabus says is usable, not what you like. If you allow an unapproved publication, the first thing the inspector assigned to the school's certificate is going to ask is does the publication meet FAA standards for cockpit use. I.E does the publisher meet the standards for sourcing, accuracy, revision cycles etc. While you are stammering he is wondering if he should suspend your school certificate. Even worse if you have examining authority and you allow a publication outside the PTG standard, kiss your authority goodbye. To paraphrase Stalin, "No book, no problem".
    Last edited by GeeBee; 05-17-2014 at 08:57 PM.

  23. #23
    PerryB's Avatar
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    I guess we're just looking at this from different perspectives. I always used it as a source of ancillary services which would sometimes determine my destination airport for a given leg of a trip (based on the aforementioned parameters of dining, lodging and car rentals). I understand that it's not an acceptable navaid by official standards but I maintain that throwing it out the window is completely unreasonable. What if, through this act of reckless disregard, it hit the tail and damaged a control surface? If you had said you threw it in the back seat, the collective "we" wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Personally, I've never considered Stalin a role model. Have a nice day. ------- P.S. I still miss the old brown book.

  24. #24

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    As an experienced instructor, who has dodged more vomit than a pediatric nurse, I know how to get things out the window safely

    I agree, Stalin is no role model, in fact I detest his legacy, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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    Just dusted off my "brown book" Flight Guide published by Airguide and I liked that book a lot----contained useful info---not for a catergory IIIA approach ,but----got to the page on how to enter a holding pattern----Teardrop-Direct or Parallel----I had written myself a note on that page to just remember TENDER-DELICIOUS-PU$$Y----with that kind of reminder I would NEVER throw that book out of the window----P.S. the mark of a good instructor is one that adapts himself to the student and not the other way around----Capt Cub


    "You cannot teach experience, you must acquire it."
    Captain Cub

  26. #26
    GumpAir's Avatar
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    I loved my old Flight Guides and used 'em for decades. Places to eat, motels and rental cars, quick picture of the runway(s). It was handy, and like was posted above, often made the difference of where I'd stop if I was traveling a long ways.

    And just as important, in the pre XM Radio/iPod/mp3 days, it gave me the local AM radio stations so I had something to listen to on the ADF as I flogged along.

    Gump

  27. #27

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    "P.S. the mark of a good instructor is one that adapts himself to the student and not the other way around----Capt Cub "

    I was thinking about this thread as I was sitting on the beach reading "Understanding AF447". One because I was reading it on a tablet and how nice it was not to have to lug a book everywhere. Two, because AF447 was at its core a failure of flying basics. Autopilot, auto trim, moving maps, recovery from stall warnings, but not stall recognition. If someone had just accomplished basic attitude instrument flying the airplane would have survived. In essence, the little brown book that was the crutch was thrown out the window by Fate and Fate said, "fly the damn airplane without the crutches" and they could not. You never know when you will be in a minimal circumstance, but you damn well better be prepared. If you want to train with all the crutches in place, what is the point of training? To learn how to use the crutches? Really?

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    I've used the old Flight Guides on and off since the early 80's. Great resource for flight planning but certainly not necessary.

    If a flight instructor threw anything of mine out the window I would be looking for another instructor.

    Paul

  29. #29
    Mauleguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul K View Post
    If a flight instructor threw anything of mine out the window I would be looking for another instructor.
    +1

  30. #30
    G44's Avatar
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    Delete….
    G44

    I was thinking about this thread as I was sitting on the beach reading "Understanding AF447". One because I was reading it on a tablet and how nice it was not to have to lug a book everywhere. Two, because AF447 was at its core a failure of flying basics. Autopilot, auto trim, moving maps, recovery from stall warnings, but not stall recognition. If someone had just accomplished basic attitude instrument flying the airplane would have survived. In essence, the little brown book that was the crutch was thrown out the window by Fate and Fate said, "fly the damn airplane without the crutches" and they could not. You never know when you will be in a minimal circumstance, but you damn well better be prepared. If you want to train with all the crutches in place, what is the point of training? To learn how to use the crutches? Really?[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by G44; 05-18-2014 at 10:49 PM.

  31. #31
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    "P.S. the mark of a good instructor is one that adapts himself to the student and not the other way around----Capt Cub "

    I was thinking about this thread as I was sitting on the beach reading "Understanding AF447". One because I was reading it on a tablet and how nice it was not to have to lug a book everywhere. Two, because AF447 was at its core a failure of flying basics. Autopilot, auto trim, moving maps, recovery from stall warnings, but not stall recognition. If someone had just accomplished basic attitude instrument flying the airplane would have survived. In essence, the little brown book that was the crutch was thrown out the window by Fate and Fate said, "fly the damn airplane without the crutches" and they could not. You never know when you will be in a minimal circumstance, but you damn well better be prepared. If you want to train with all the crutches in place, what is the point of training? To learn how to use the crutches? Really?
    None of this has anything to do with taking and destroying another person's property. That is wrong, period. You're barking up the wrong tree, Geebee. Had you been my instructor I don't think you would have had the opportunity; however if you had done that to me, you'd have been fired on the spot.
    Gordon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    None of this has anything to do with taking and destroying another person's property. That is wrong, period. You're barking up the wrong tree, Geebee. Had you been my instructor I don't think you would have had the opportunity; however if you had done that to me, you'd have been fired on the spot.
    When I was in kindergarten, I lost a toy I snuck in because it was not allowed. I broke the school rules and Miss Gadski made me pay the price. In flight schools I have run, if you break the rules you pay a price. If you fire me, that is a relief because I don't want students who don't respect the school, the curriculum or most importantly, have the discipline to learn what they need to know, because flying is deadly business. Thank you Miss Gadeski. The earliest lessons are the most profound.

  33. #33
    Mauleguy's Avatar
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    Gee bee, Your not getting it, you think you have some kind of authority that you don't really have over an "adult" not a child. All you really need to do is explain to the student that the book is not allowed put it in the back for that lesson. There is no one that is going to come from the FAA and tear apart a 152 looking for that book.

    Your just being a dick about it when you throw it out the window, people like you really piss people like me off.

    Justify your actions with all kinds of B.S. or maybe consider there is a better way to handle it. Or stick to them guns.....
    Last edited by Mauleguy; 05-19-2014 at 09:34 AM.

  34. #34

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    When you are told you can not use it, and you do so anyway, who is being the dick and who is being childish?

    Standards mean something, and when you look at almost every accident, there is a failure of elemental skills either induced or produced, be it AF447 or the latest light plane crash on page 6 of your local paper. As an instructor I would not let people off the hook on the fundamentals and navigation by sectional chart only is a fundamental. I make no apologies for that stance.

  35. #35
    C130jake's Avatar
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    FAR 91.15 Dropping objects.
    No pilot in command of a civil aircraft may allow any object to be dropped from that
    aircraft in flight that creates a hazard to persons or property. However, this section does not
    prohibit the dropping of any object if reasonable precautions are taken to avoid injury or
    damage to persons or property.

    Doesn't sound reasonable to me. May fall under reckless and dangerous depending on which Fed you talk to. Littering too. $1000 fine in Minnesota. I guess you don't believe in "Leave No Trace". Taking someone's else's property and willfully damaging or destroying it is ILLEGAL. Give the student a down if you must, what you did is WRONG! A good pilot admits when he is wrong.

    Jake



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  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by C130jake View Post
    FAR 91.15 Dropping objects.
    No pilot in command of a civil aircraft may allow any object to be dropped from that
    aircraft in flight that creates a hazard to persons or property. However, this section does not
    prohibit the dropping of any object if reasonable precautions are taken to avoid injury or
    damage to persons or property.

    Doesn't sound reasonable to me. May fall under reckless and dangerous depending on which Fed you talk to. Littering too. $1000 fine in Minnesota. I guess you don't believe in "Leave No Trace". Taking someone's else's property and willfully damaging or destroying it is ILLEGAL. Give the student a down if you must, what you did is WRONG! A good pilot admits when he is wrong.

    Jake



    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I am so glad you are able from your computer screen to evaluate if I took reasonable precautions. That you are totally familiar with the terrain, and place upon which I dropped an object and so designated the drop as unsuitable. Really, really very, very clairvoyant. Perhaps you could clue me on the what the market will do tomorrow. This did not take place in MN, so no problem there. Damn, I guess I'm not a good pilot and all the time I thought I was just average.

  37. #37
    C130jake's Avatar
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    Please forgive me GeeBee, I based my comment on your post.
    "When I used to instruct, if a student opened one of those little brown books, I would grab it and throw it out the window."
    Your quote didn't sound like you took reasonable precautions, evaluated the terrain, and ensured the object would fall harmlessly to the ground. It sounded impulsive. Sorry for reading that into your post. I am still a little disturbed that a flight instructor would intentionally deprive any individual (a paying student in your care) of their personal property and litter and think that was OK. I am glad I don't live where littering is legal.

    As an instructor and former school teacher, I guess I would want to know why the student was not confident enough in their abilities where they would "cheat" and use the little brown book. Was their instruction insufficient, were they passed along when they haven't mastered their previous blocks of instruction, afraid to ask for additional help, lazy? When someone busts a check ride, it should bring their training into question. It may not be all the students fault.

    Jake

  38. #38
    hottshot's Avatar
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    Damn... Sorry to hear about the books going away.... and I guess it a good thing the FAA knows best and we are no longer able to use these crutches..... anyways...

  39. #39
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    This has been very entertaining. Before I built my own strip I kept my pa11 in the hangar right next to my instructor's pa11 that I had done my training in. Every time he had a new student I would go over and introduce myself. I would then tell them in a loud enough voice so that my CFI could hear " you hired him, so if you don't like what he's doing tell him, your paying the bill "

    Glenn

  40. #40
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    And do you wack 'em on the knuckles with a plotter when they make a mistake?
    What the hell is a plotter?


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