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Thread: O-470l

  1. #1

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    O-470l

    I'm looking for an STC to install an O-470L on an early Model Cessna 180. Does anyone know of one out there. I have a great 0 time O-470L and want to get rid of the original A model. Thank you for any info.

  2. #2
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Take the oil pan and induction "Y" off the A and install on the L. Then change the data plate to say it's a K and then you don't need an STC.

  3. #3
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Someone got is serious trouble near here doing just that.
    N1PA

  4. #4
    180Marty's Avatar
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    OK. what is the difference between a L and a K other than the oil pan and the induction Y? Answer----nothing other than the data plate.

  5. #5
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    There must be a legal authorized procedure for making the change. In my above example, it was "just done" in order to sell a plane. A very run out engine suddenly became a low time since major, in an airplane that had been misrepresented in a sale. It was caught during an annual with the second owner since the "procedure" was accomplished. Different log book and different serial number. Neither one matched the engine or each other. Bad story.
    N1PA

  6. #6
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Here's what happened to a deceased friend of mine that was an IA/A and P and owned a 1955 180 with a J. The phase 1 crankcase cracked up above number 1 cylinder. He found another used crankcase and as I remember it didn't have a data plate. He overhauled the engine and put the same data plate back on the engine. If he had put newer cylinders on that fit K,L,R, and S, it would have been just like an R.

  7. #7
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Log book entry "replaced crankcase with used serviceable crankcase". This is a repair not an alteration. The alteration in question may or may not have an approved procedure. Just make sure the proper paperwork follows the engine. In my example above it did not. There was intent to deceive. The friendly FAA representative was not pleased nor was the owner of the plane. The engine was used as a core in trade on a reman.
    N1PA

  8. #8

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    If indeed they are the same except for those 2 items you can change the dash letter. Major alteration so you need to fill out a 337. Then continental has a service bulletin M75-6R1 that says how to re mark the data plate.

    http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/M75-6R1.pdf

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    Hey guys,
    Reviving this post. I looking to put the 470L in my 54' 180 to replace the "J". I have seen some early 180's with the L but I'm trying to find out how to make sure it is legal. I know the A,J, and K are on my type cert and the L is very similar to the K model. I just don't see it listed and want to be able to reference something before I install the L....

  11. #11
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Like was said earlier, the difference between a K and L is the oil pan and induction Y. L was put on the 182 because they had to make room for the nose gear on the firewall while K on a 1956 was like your J. If you keep it an L you probably have to change the engine mount and get a carb airbox like an early 182 or later 180's with an R. I've seen early 180's with an L but was it STC'd or field approval?????

  12. #12

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    Thanks Marty, I understand I'll need a new mount and 4 bold flange ext, but the oil pan and "y" induction are news for me to think about. I think the main thing I'm getting at is it STC or Field approval like you mentioned. If it's field approval only I hate minimizing future buyers(if I ever was to sell) since Canada does not recognize the field approval process.

  13. #13
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    bagleyb3, If all you can come up with is a Field Approval which someone else has accomplished, it is possible that you could use that information working with your FAA FSDO to get your own "one only" STC. A "one only" STC has the same authority as a multiple use STC but has a simpler paper work process and is issued to one airplane only. If you have a knowledgeable IA who you work with, he ought to be able to guide you along the path.
    N1PA

  14. #14

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    Never heard of the one time STC but this is why I posted. Thanks for the help and I'll investigate with my IA. This is just for the 470L option. If there are guys wanting a 470R look up Frank Shea. He has a STC for the R. I'll use him if I find a good R rather than a K or L.

  15. #15
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Also you will first deal with the FSDO and end up at engineering. In this region, I've found them all cooperative. A positive attitude and relationship is an important part of the process. It also helps if your IA is friendly with one or more of the FAA folks. It often takes years to develop this friendship.
    N1PA

  16. #16
    180Marty's Avatar
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    The difference between an L and R is the L has two sets of counter weights on the crankshaft instead of one. Two is supposed to be smoother. Another thought, you could make it a Pponk since that needs the crank with two sets of CW's

  17. #17
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180Marty View Post
    .....I've seen early 180's with an L but was it STC'd or field approval?????
    According to the year-by-year changes list on the old Stancil website, the 1960 C180C & 1961 C180D were equipped with the 470-L engine.

    http://bushwagoneast.com/skywagon-differences/

    I don't know what they did re the induction.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  18. #18
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180Marty View Post
    The difference between an L and R is the L has two sets of counter weights on the crankshaft instead of one. Two is supposed to be smoother. Another thought, you could make it a Pponk since that needs the crank with two sets of CW's
    I don't think this is correct.
    Check the 470 TCDS, esp notes 4 & 5:
    Note 4 says A, J, & R models have one 5th order & one 6th order dampers, where the K & L models have four 6th order dampers.
    Note 5 says L is the same as K except for relocated carb & revised intake manifold oil sump.

    http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/b55509a1fd61c3ee862579530053a626/$FILE/E-273%20rev%2037.pdf

    I'm not an A&P, an IA, OR a lawyer.... but IMHO you could reconfigure the L engine as a K, restamp the data plate as per the service bulletin Trent F provided a link to

    http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/M75-6R1.pdf

    note that conversion in the engine logbook,
    and install the converted engine with a airframe logbook entry as per the 54 model specs (A J or K allowed) in the C180 TCDS.
    Not sure if an engine replacement requires a 337?

    A couple complications, already noted by others:
    different engine mount, and different exhaust.
    My 53 was converted to a K engine about 20 years ago-
    they welded 4-bolt flanges on the original exhaust system.
    and fitted the A engine's mount legs onto the K case so they could use the original engine mount.
    These mods were field-approved on a 337 for my airplane.

    FWIW I think biting the bullet and buying a later mount is a better idea--
    the way the rubber mounts attach is much superior to the early mount IMHO.
    Last edited by hotrod180; 05-02-2017 at 11:39 AM.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  19. #19
    180Marty's Avatar
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    According to the year-by-year changes list on the old Stancil website, the 1960 C180C & 1961 C180D were equipped with the 470-L engine.
    I didn't know that. Evidently those 180's were just like 182's except no nose wheel. Then they dropped one set of counter weights and the R was born----cheaper and lighter!!!!
    I don't think this is correct.
    Here is a pic of a boat anchor K (also L) crank I have laying around. It has what I call TWO SETS of counter weights but officially is called 4 Sixth Order Dampers.
    The A,J, and R have what I call 1 set of CW's but offically is one 5th and one 6th order dampers. The counters weights were removed and used on the good crank I had to buy.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by 180Marty; 05-01-2017 at 06:31 PM.

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