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Need help with potential air bag system for Super Cubs.

sj

Staff member
Northwest Arkansas
Hello PA – 18 Super Cub owners.

AmSafe is reviewing the possibility of developing a seatbelt airbag system for the PA – 18 aircraft.

In order to shorten the development time, we are anticipating using the already developed airbag system from the CubCrafter’s application.

AmSafe is looking for local PA -18 aircraft owners who are interested in allowing AmSafe to come out to their aircraft (San Antonio / Boerne / Kerrville area OR Phoenix area) in order to take pictures, measurements and to conduct a test fit (temporary installation which will be removed so no alteration of the aircraft will take place).

The more aircraft that we look at the better. We will only use one aircraft for the test fitting.

Also AmSafe is looking for a couple PA – 18 experts, especially those who are very familiar with the aircraft interior, seats, seatbelt attach points, and the changes that have occurred over the years to assist AmSafe in identifying applications. (Preferably a maintenance facility who has access to the most up to date technical publications for the PA – 18 product line).

If you are interested in showing us your aircraft, or you are a industry expert please contact Richard Heitzman, Sales Manager for AmSafe at his email address ofrheitzman@amsafe.com and we will schedule a visit with you.

AmSafe appreciates the owner group support, which will help make this development program move forward.

With Kindest Regards,

Richard Heitzman
 
I would also call the airframes alaska guys. They have a great crew and have seen most of the mods.
DENNY
 
I hope they can make it less restrictive then the Cub Crafters one that's thing looks more uncomfortable then a Hans device.
 
Good morning,

Steve Johnson posted the original request from me, and I want to thank him for his support in doing so.

I hope that I was clear in what AmSafe is asking of the PA - 18 owner group. If you are interested in having seatbelt airbags for your PA - 18 then we need your help in developing the system, and really all I need to do is take a look at your aircraft, take some pictures of the seatbelt attach points, and in the near future I will be test fitting a seatbelt system.

I am also judging the interest of the owner group by working with the Super cub organization.

One of the reasons that I am pushing for this program is for the fact that I spent a week in Alaska at the trade show this year, and participated in the show by working with the Millennium Foundation, as well as giving a class to Brian Horner's Learn To Return training systems HAI Safety Conference, and while in Alaska I was able to meet with Della Swartz, Program Manager at the ACO in Alaska. Della, Brian and the Millennium Foundation pushed me to develop a system, for the fact that the Super cub has the highest fatality and injury rate of any aircraft flying in Alaska.

Without the interest, support and willing participation of the owner group, AmSafe will not have the ability to develop a system.

If you are an owner and you live in Texas or Arizona, shoot me an email so I can come out to look at your aircraft and take pictures. Lunch will be on me.

Thank you

Richard Heitzman
Sales Manager, AmSafe
 
why seatbelt?

We hit the dash and V brace... airbag at the top of widshield pointed down, or top of dash going up and down...

But they need to be really secure because some of us bounce hard...
 
The seatbelt airbag system is designed to protect against head and torso trauma which are the number one injury and fatality in aviation accidents, including the ones in the PA - 18.

R
 
I don't believe that you will protect against the seatbelt injury to the body, which leaves the dash and v brace for the body to impact...

A bag built into the top of the dash that went up between the head and V brace, and down between the torso and dash would protect from the trauma...

I have looked hard at the airbags on the ski packs, and I can see the bulk of them becoming a problem in a working day in a cub.

That is why I am suggesting it be put on the frame/dash somewhere where it would still be between the dash/brace and body when needed, but not take the day to day abuse that belts get when wearing knives, pistols, belt buckles and such that wear belts.
 
I appreciate your comments and will take note of them if and when we go into development for the system.

Just a side note,

We have airbag system on Thrush and Air Tractor aircraft that are used everyday in operations that I would consider more strenuos and suffer more abuse than what might be considered a normal day in Alaska flying. So for there have been minimal complaints on the wearability of the systems (most have asked for an IR with the Air Tractor system, which Air Tractor has so far said no). The Thrush system (which has an Inertia Reel) has been complaint free.

We also have systems installed on aircraft operating in flight schools, which have thousands of hours in operation with no complaints.

A structure mounted airbag system for an aircraft would be more costly and take such an engineering effort that would place the system out of reach for most if not all the owner / operators of the PA - 18 aircraft.

We have conducted extensive testing of the airbag systems in multiple styles and configurations, and the testing has proven the effectiveness of the system. The FAA and the NTSB have conducted independent studies and presented information and statements in support of the system and the effectiveness and reliability of the seatbelt airbag systems in operation.

It was Della Swartz who asked me to develop a system for the PA -18.

Again, thank you for the comments and I will keep them in mind.

With Kindest Regards,

Richard.


I don't believe that you will protect against the seatbelt injury to the body, which leaves the dash and v brace for the body to impact...

A bag built into the top of the dash that went up between the head and V brace, and down between the torso and dash would protect from the trauma...

I have looked hard at the airbags on the ski packs, and I can see the bulk of them becoming a problem in a working day in a cub.

That is why I am suggesting it be put on the frame/dash somewhere where it would still be between the dash/brace and body when needed, but not take the day to day abuse that belts get when wearing knives, pistols, belt buckles and such that wear belts.
 
Richard, I am in Graham, Texas which is about 80 miles west of Ft. Worth. Have Super Cubs from bare frames to flying aircraft. The most popular modification is to add two tubes and brackets to the fuselage structure under the seat for the seat belt attachment. Originally it was bolted to the seat.
102_5741.JPG
 
I don't believe that you will protect against the seatbelt injury to the body, which leaves the dash and v brace for the body to impact...

A bag built into the top of the dash that went up between the head and V brace, and down between the torso and dash would protect from the trauma...

I have looked hard at the airbags on the ski packs, and I can see the bulk of them becoming a problem in a working day in a cub.

That is why I am suggesting it be put on the frame/dash somewhere where it would still be between the dash/brace and body when needed, but not take the day to day abuse that belts get when wearing knives, pistols, belt buckles and such that wear belts.

that would be my first thought too... send something up from under dash.... since thats what gets you(especially if not Inertia reel harness)....

how do airbags handle pokey objects like the knobs poking out of dash?

helment mount :) .... redundant...
 
that would be my first thought too... send something up from under dash.... since thats what gets you(especially if not Inertia reel harness)....

how do airbags handle pokey objects like the knobs poking out of dash?

helment mount :) .... redundant...


Ag planes I don't think have pilots in and out every 15 to 20 minutes all day long. Same with flight schools...

Mike, I have seen the results of a ski airbag after a 'little' roll through the rocks... bag looked like the shorts on that kid that went into the polar bear pond a number of years ago.... shredded!

The guy survived, no head injury. 8 broken ribs though...

But for major impact, the pokey things would cut, but I think it would still help as your head/chest went forward.

Top of dash up and down just seems way more protected than on by belt. I am thinking about all the crap that people wear into and out of a plane, and the abuse when I take my belt off and it falls down and the back seat guy is kicking it...


When the passenger guy has the sharp hooks on his boots and they hang up on the belt...

Ok, I am a whiner, I admit. But to consider spending money, I must ask if my money is going to be wasted by faulty or damaged equipment when it is needed.

Were I an airbag developer, I would get myself to where folks are flying these birds and ride in them to really see what they are talking about. Maybe I am wrong, often am. But check out the abuse the pilot belt takes from the back seat, and consider a working cub, which many are not, and how many landings and unloads/loads we do in a day.

Belts take abuse from people getting in and out... and from folks kicking them. Tandem seats are different than side by side and single.

Also dog claws would be hard on them if on the belt...

Ok, I will shut up now.
 
I think you are the man to see :)

I will set up a trip in the next couple weeks to your facility to review the aircraft. That is a serious change to the TC by moving the seatbelt attach point.

I will give you a call next week if you send me your telephone number. Mine is 830-822-8068 for the cell phone.

Rich.

Richard, I am in Graham, Texas which is about 80 miles west of Ft. Worth. Have Super Cubs from bare frames to flying aircraft. The most popular modification is to add two tubes and brackets to the fuselage structure under the seat for the seat belt attachment. Originally it was bolted to the seat.
102_5741.JPG
 
I think you are the man to see :)

I will set up a trip in the next couple weeks to your facility to review the aircraft. That is a serious change to the TC by moving the seatbelt attach point.

I will give you a call next week if you send me your telephone number. Mine is 830-822-8068 for the cell phone.

Rich.


The shoulder straps are mounted all over the place too.

Will this be STC'd? The method of "approving" changes to seat belt mounts and occupant restraints is different in the US than most of the rest of the world. i.e. the "minor alteration" provision in the US regs is not available to us in other parts of the world. Similarly some regulators mandate TSO C114 torso restraints instead of TSO C22 seat belts. Please if you go to the trouble of doing this, make it such that the rest of the world can use it.

Thanks,
Andrew.
 
Certification standards

Hi Andrew,

Thank you for your comments. All of our airbag systems, including the seat belts, are TSO 114 certified. The kit will be a FAA STC and added to AmSafe's AML STC listing that currently is approved in the USA, Canada, EASA countries and many other countries.

I will post a list of approvals soon.

Thanks

R


The shoulder straps are mounted all over the place too.

Will this be STC'd? The method of "approving" changes to seat belt mounts and occupant restraints is different in the US than most of the rest of the world. i.e. the "minor alteration" provision in the US regs is not available to us in other parts of the world. Similarly some regulators mandate TSO C114 torso restraints instead of TSO C22 seat belts. Please if you go to the trouble of doing this, make it such that the rest of the world can use it.

Thanks,
Andrew.
 
Hello everyone. Just to bring you a progress report. I am flying up to Dan's Aircraft Repair in Anchorage on the 4th of March to test fit the seatbelt airbag system into the Alaska Airman's Super Cub that Dan is renovating. I will be at the hanger on the 5th and most of the 6th in the morning up to lunch time. Then off to Fairbanks to give a training presentation as part of the Alaska IA renewal program. They are setting up a meet and greet in Fairbanks the night of the 6th so if you can come by for that you will get a first hand look at the kit as well.

I will have a full kit at Dan's working on the installation. If you want to come by and take a look please do so. I will answer as many questions as I can. We see this certification process being completed (knock on wood) by the trade show.

I look forward to the trip and meeting anyone who comes by. Don't be a stranger.

Richard
 
I will try to be at Dans to take a look at system they have developed, work permitting. My questions / concerns:
1) would these airbags be used in the rear seat of a cub as well?
2) ability to exit aircraft post crash? Front and back seat if both deploy?
3) floatplane use??? Upside down in the water ?
I think any advancement in safety is a great thing, helmets, nomex, on board fire suppression or airbags but Lets keep in mind how and when we fly.
Ron
 
Went by Dans aircraft yesterday to meet Richard Heitzman from AMSAFE, sales mgr. for airbag products. Dans guys were installing a set of airbags in this years Ak. AIRMANS give away cub. Like any new products for aviation I had a number of questions and it was a perfect time to see the product and watch the install in a PA-18. I am in no way writing this as a expert in avaition safety or have any involvement with the company producing the airbags, just an old novice low time cub pilot. So here is what I learned. By the way, Richard will be at the AIRMANS show, if you have question, I'am sure he would be glad to answer them.
1) You have to buy a complete new retractable seatbelt arraignment.
2) The airbag is in the left shoulder harness only.
3) They mount to the same tab in the standard location. No modifications.
4) They mounted the G-meter box to the cross tube behind the right Wingroot interior panel.
5) Dan's estimate 4hr. Labor to install complete system.
6) The g-meter box also contains the lithium ion battery. The wire from the box runs over to the top of the harness and plugs into the triggering system on the shoulder harness.
7) Both shoulder webbing straps are covered in a very soft leather cover. Felt comfortable on neck area, not bulky or heavy feeling even with the CO2 cartridge that is integrated up high on the left strap. I was not able to sit in the seat and try them on because the seat was not installed yet, but laid the straps over my shoulder.
8) You can only buy them as a pair, for front and back or side by side applications.
9) Sugested price is around $4,000 for the pair. Although Richard said the will be quite a discount at the show!
My questions:
?) What would it be like to get out of an upside down floatplane with the airbag deployed?
A) The airbag deploys in a 9 G crash in 4-5 milliseconds, auto deflates in 3 to 5 seconds, bag covers your torso from your lap, shoulder width, up in front of face and head area, release belt as we do now, and hopefully able to get out baring other injuries.
?) Can the system be re-used after a crash?
A) No. Must be replaced!
?) What will the FAA require during annual inspection?
A) Your Ap/IA will have to have the equipment to test it or an approved service station can do it. Richard can explain this better at the show or in a follow up to this site for those that live in remote areas.

My thoughts:
Seem expensive at first thought, but what is your life worth in a bad crash? What does a pair of the best helmets out there cost today in comparison? If your at the show, ask Richard to show you how they work on his computer. He has an impressive video done with a crash dummy on a test sled at different G's.
Iam not going to run out and buy them right now, but I might. I guess you have to think, if you knew someone that didn't survive a bad crash, would they have had a better chance with the airbag? If fire wasn't involved, maybe.
Just my thoughts, would Dale Earnhardt be alive today if wearing a Hanns device and airbags shoulder harness???

What do you think'
Ron

.
 
Hi Ron,

It was great to meet you at Dan's, and you did ask some great questions and I was very happy to show off the system during the test fit.

The installation went very well. Dan's mechanics and I worked to make this an easy "off the shelf" solution to the owner / operators of these aircraft. I feel we nailed it. Based upon the recommendations of the crew we located the electronics module and test port out of the way "out of sight out of mind" and ran the wiring harness under the overhead panel so when you are loading or unloading the aircraft the wiring in not damaged. The inertia reel for the shoulder harnesses was sitting too low in the cabin so we decided to adjust the drawings to rotate those up into the overhead. What that means is you will not bump your head when you get into or out of the aircraft and the back seat IR is out of the way when you are loading the aircraft.

We also had to change the orientation of the lap belt attach fittings on the back seatbelt, but that also is a minor change to the drawings.

So in the end, we have a system that fits very well into the aircraft. The installation report has already been given to my certification manager who is packaging this up and sending it over to the FAA.

I had a chance to spend some time with Dave Swartz (FAA Alaska FISDO)during the IA renewal class in Fairbanks, and Dave and I went through the installation. Dave liked the install and he was pretty excited we had a chance to get it done.

I will be talking with Brian at LTR to discuss the possibility of conducting a underwater egress test with a deployed system. Right now that has not taken place. We have to prove egress on our applications and with the system installed there was not issue, of course we did not do this upside down in the water.

To make sure you all understand why we are doing this I wanted to touch on a few items. First of all, Della Swartz from the FAA let us know that in Alaska the Piper Super Cub and the Cessna 170 had the highest fatality and injury rates of any aircraft in Alaska. AmSafe felt that we could provide a system to Super Cub so we took this challenge. The FAA and NTSB both have studied the effectiveness of the airbag system and the results are published for you to review, but we do what we say we do, prevent head and torso trauma in a survivable crash.

So if you are in a crash (with a fire, or upside down on floats or on the side of a mountain) that resulted in a airbag deployment, that means you would have had enough energy from the crash to impact the objects in front of you, such as the instrument panel, or the forward seat back (for the rear seat passenger). If you had impacted the object, you would have head and/or torso trauma. This trauma could prevent you from getting out of the aircraft in time to save you and your passenger's life. I am not trying to scare you, but this is a reality in the way and area that Alaska pilots fly.

I will be at the show. I will be at the Millennium booth with Jerry and Debora "spreading the word" about airbags. I am going to try and have a set installed on the PA -18 simulator if you want to try the fit.

feel free to contact me via email if you would like more information. rheitzman AT amsafe DOT com

Thanks
 
Good Morning everyone,

Paperwork is up at the FAA and I feel confident that we will have an approved system for the Alaska Airman show. Make sure you come by the Millennium booth to see the system and talk with me. We will also have an installed system in the PA - 18 aircraft that Dan has rebuilt.

Thank you

Richard
 
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