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Non-certified tailspring with ABW on certified airplane

Chogf22

Registered User
Camas, WA
Well, I've been through the threads for the last few hours researching, and now I'm hoping I can get some advice/opinions.

I took my mother-in-law on a sweet tour of the Chugach range this morning, and upon landing in Birchwood, had some really good tailwheel shimmy. I'm ok with this because while at Birchwood, I got to see my new airframes gear and ABWs (to include the baby bushwheel), so the back end will be changed before the next flight.

Because of the shimmy, I've been reading that one of the best tailspring setups for cubs is the ABW Husky tailspring, but it is not certified. I'd like to use the best setup, but am a GA novice thus far. Can I use this spring, or does it then make my cub "illegal". Should I just go with the legal Pawnee, even though it might not be as good?

Also, does any one know of a source document that shows what all work can be performed by the owner vs. what has to be performed by an A&P?

Thanks for the help!

Matt
 
I like the pawnee spring better. The Bushwheel spring is nice, but is 1 pound heavier, and has too much arch in it. IMHO. I have had really good luck with my pawnee, with over a 1100 hours on it so far. Still showing no signs of wear. Ron
 
I had to re-arc my Pawnee tailspring (from Univair) after about 200 hours. It's been great since then and was relatively inexpensive to do. Don't have any experience with the ABW spring. Don't see any need to change at this point.
 
Try a 3/8" to 1/2" shim between the spring and the rear mount to change the geometry... works wonders with a properly curved stock spring.
 
I like the pawnee spring better. The Bushwheel spring is nice, but is 1 pound heavier, and has too much arch in it. IMHO. I have had really good luck with my pawnee, with over a 1100 hours on it so far. Still showing no signs of wear. Ron

I've used both too and completely agree with 16Bravo on this. The Pawnee is better on a Cub than the ABI Husky spring is.
 
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I just had the same experience as Steve - 262 hrs on a Pawnee spring and for the first time got a violent shimmy landing. Bought some new parts from Grant at Wipaire. A new Pawnee spring and one of their 1/4 inch thick plates for a shim. My original Pawnee spring's top and second spring appear to be bent up VERY slightly compared to the new one. But the tailwheel used to pivot level, now it has a 4 degree negative caster angle. That is with about 36 gal of fuel & no one in the plane. Doctor Randy has a BW spring. His tailwheel under the same conditions has about 6 degrees positive caster. So I plan to re-arch about 10 degrees. This sounds about like the change Gilbert Pierce made in his ground breaking study of his tailwheel.
By the way, also discovered the standard tailwheel tire from BW was way out of balance & now has a flat spot. Plan to install a new tire & figure out how to balance it.
 
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I prefer stock 1.25" 4 leaf spring set re-arched to the correct angle. You don't really want a 3/8" spacer between the tail post and the springs 1/4" is about the most you'll ever need. The stock width springs give you way more torsional flexibility and can save the airframe from getting twisted.

Jason
 
So, I think I have been a little off in my assumption that I wanted heavy duty everything...the last thing I want is a twisted frame! I am working my way into off airport ops slowly, and the only non paved landings have been at 6 mile so far (which is in such good condition it might as well be paved).

Maybe I'll stick with my original thought of a Pawnee...what are the thoughts on 1 bolt v. 2?
 
Well, I've been through the threads for the last few hours researching, and now I'm hoping I can get some advice/opinions.

I took my mother-in-law on a sweet tour of the Chugach range this morning, and upon landing in Birchwood, had some really good tailwheel shimmy. I'm ok with this because while at Birchwood, I got to see my new airframes gear and ABWs (to include the baby bushwheel), so the back end will be changed before the next flight.

Because of the shimmy, I've been reading that one of the best tailspring setups for cubs is the ABW Husky tailspring, but it is not certified. I'd like to use the best setup, but am a GA novice thus far. Can I use this spring, or does it then make my cub "illegal". Should I just go with the legal Pawnee, even though it might not be as good?

Also, does any one know of a source document that shows what all work can be performed by the owner vs. what has to be performed by an A&P?

Thanks for the help!
look in FAR43,their is a list of items you can perform legally,actually,quite a few.I used to give them to my customers
 
AK Bushwheel makes a Piper spring but it is not yet certified. It is the same arch as the original Piper Super Cub tail spring and the same width as the Pawnee spring. It is made with better metallurgy in my opinion because it does not lose it's arch like the other springs I have used. Here are the weights of the various tailsprings:

AK Bushwheels 3 leaf tail springs 4.85 lbs. with their bracket 5.05 lbs
Univair 3 leaf from Clipper 3.10 lbs.
Univair Pacer/Super Cub 4 leaf 4.20 lbs with Piper bracket 4.35 lbs
Univair Pacer/Super Cub 4 leaf with bracket holding springs together 4.50 lbs
Univair Pawnee 4 leaf 6.2 lbs.

I have picked up numerous ground looped Super Cubs and pacers and in my opinion a contributing factor to the accident was the lost arch in the tailspring. I install the AK Bushwheel Piper tailspring as an owner produced part.

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From an article my Dad wrote on tail wheel shimmy.

Tail Wheel Shimmy

I noticed when flying my Piper Clipper heavily loaded I experience tail wheel shimmy on my Scott 3200 when landing on a hard surface such as concrete or asphalt. Several years ago I was parked at the landing end of runway 36L at Oshkosh. I always get tail wheel shimmy when landing there. This afforded me the opportunity to observe many landings as I lounged under my wing. It was here that I made the discovery that about 50% of the tail wheel airplanes landing on 36L experienced tail wheel shimmy. I believe the grooved runway exacerbates the problem. Anyway those tail wheels were not just shaking side to side, they were rotating around their pivot axis 360 degrees and doing so violently. On my recent trip to Alaska I had tail wheel shimmy on almost every landing unless I really greased it on. On my return I vowed to solve the problem.

I started the quest for a solution on the Internet. I was told that if you raised your tail wheel tire air pressure it would assure the tail wheel would shimmy no more. I was told to reduce the tail wheel air pressure. I was told I had too much grease in the tail wheel. I was told that if the tail wheel didn’t spit grease at you when walked by it, it did not have enough grease hence the shimmy. I was told to loosen my steering springs, I was told to tighten my springs. I was told that the pivot axis must be absolutely vertical so that the surface the tail wheel swivels on is parallel with the ground hence the pivot bolt would be vertical. Mine was. I was told the pivot bolt must face forward at the top, I was told the pivot bolt must face aft at the top. So what did I do? I took the tail wheel apart and made sure it was mechanically in top-notch condition and adjusted to the manufactures specifications-again. It was. Then I tried each and every remedy listed above except changing the angle of the pivot bolt, no help. The Scott 2000 tail wheel does require some tension on the steering springs to control the unlock tension and hence shimmy. The Scott 3200 installation instructions say that chain tension is not required or recommended.

Next I got out an old 1950’s auto repair manual that explained king pin front wheel suspension systems and steering castor angle. If you have ever pushed a grocery cart through the supermarket with one of the front wheels shaking side to side you have experienced wheel shimmy and improper castor angle. What I learned from the chapter on steering alignment was basic steering geometry. To measure your steering geometry, drop a line drawn parallel to and through the pivot axis and extend it to the floor and make a mark on the floor where this line hits or use a straight edge parallel to the steering axis shaft. Next drop a line vertically from your tail wheel axle to the floor or again use a straight edge and make a mark on the floor. This will also be where your tail wheel contacts the floor. Now move this line or straight edge that passed from the axle to the wheel/floor contact point horizontally until intersects the pivot axis line at the pivot axis midpoint The line that is parallel to the steering axis must hit the floor ahead of the line dropped vertically from the wheel axle. The angle formed by these two lines is your castor angle. The larger the castor angle the better as far as tail wheel shimmy is concerned. In other words, the farther ahead of the tail wheel that the steering axis line hits the floor the greater the castor angle and the less likely that will have shimmy. To put it another way, the steering axis pin or bolt must be vertical or tilted with the top pointing behind or to the rear of the airplane when the airplane is fully loaded. Emphasis on fully loaded.

When my airplane was empty the steering axis bolt was vertical. When I loaded the airplane, the tail wheel spring compressed and the top of the steering axis bolt was pointing to the front of the airplane. This would put the extension of a line drawn through the steering axis behind the tail wheel contact point. Bad news-it will now shimmy. You don’t want the castor angle to be too large because it will make steering on the ground more difficult. The large castor angle will tend to lift the rear of the airplane slightly as you turn the aircraft. This is called self-centering effect. Having the steering axis bolt vertical or inclined slightly with the top pointing back when fully loaded should be sufficient.

So how do you correct this angle? There are two easy solutions. If your airplane is like most, the spring is bolted at the front to the airframe with a bolt that passes through the spring leaves. The spring then rests on a pad several inches behind the point through which the through bolt passes. Usually the spring is clamped to the pad at this point. You can add a shim between the pad and the spring to increase your steering angle. Or you can take the route I took. I took the spring off and laid it on a piece of poster board and traced out it’s arch. Then I took the spring to a spring shop and had them re-bend the spring until the tail wheel end of it was about 1-1/2 inches below the original. In other words I increased the arch slightly. Walla-no more shimmy when loaded.

One other point. You should carry sufficient air pressure in your tail wheel to keep the tire firmly attached to the rim when it hits the pavement on landing. Due to the small diameter of the tail wheel, it accelerates very rapidly on contact. If you have insufficient pressure in the tire it will slip on the rim and cut the valve stem. You now have a flat tail wheel tire. I know- it’s happened to me twice. I now carry a minimum of 45 pounds of pressure in my Scott tail wheel. The same thing can happen to your main tires but with more surface contact area around the rim it is less likely to happen unless your plane lands at very high speeds.

Tail Wheel with Positive and Negative Castor Angles – exaggerated The terms positive and negative are simply the naming the convention I choose to use as they agree with my text book references.

Gilbert Pierce​


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Awesome and helpful post, and with the weights no less. ;-)

Seriously.... Thanks Steve. Good post.


Bill
 
You can perform 'preventive maintenance'. I have cut and pasted the pertinent items that are allowed. You can change the wheel, but not the spring or shim.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](c) Preventivemaintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to thefollowing work, provided it does not involve complex assemblyoperations:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](1)Removal, installation, and repair of landing gear tires.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](2)Replacing elastic shock absorber cords on landing gear.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](3)Servicing landing gear shock struts by adding oil, air, or both.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](4)Servicing landing gear wheel bearings, such as cleaning and greasing.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](5)Replacing defective safety wiring or cotter keys.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](i)They are performed by the holder of at least a private pilotcertificate issued under part 61 who is the registered owner(including co-owners) of the affected aircraft and who holds acertificate of competency for the affected aircraft (1) issued by aschool approved under § 147.21(e) of this chapter; (2) issuedby the holder of the production certificate for that primary categoryaircraft that has a special training program approved under § 21.24of this subchapter; or (3) issued by another entity that has a courseapproved by the Administrator; and[/FONT]
 
I had tail wheel shimmy when landing on a hard surface heavily loaded, AK Bushwheel spring solved my problem
 
My limited experience says that that particular tailwheel needs a locking mechanism. It always shimmies. Opinion, based on limited data.
 
Regardless of what leaf spring set up you use Castor angle is the most important part of reducing the shimmy. Proper tailwheel maintenance and setup is is next. Also you need to make sure the tail of the airplane is not twisted causing the tailwheel to lay off center towards one side.

I prefer to use castle nuts and cotter pins on the main leaf attach bolt ant tailwheel to spring attach bolt. Have had locknuts back off and loosen up and even seen them zip right off the bolt on landing leaving the tailwheel on the runway. It's very easy to do a visual inspection for a cotter pin on pre-flight too.



Jason
 
My Pawnee spring is only 3 leaf....and my Dad just bought one a month ago....3 leaf as well. When I weighed the Bushwheel vs. the 3 leaf Pawnee, the bushwheel spring was 1 pound heavier.
 
Not sure the combination of your 3 leaf Pawnee springs but here are the individual spring weights.
U64079-005 1.20 lbs.
U64079-004 1.40 lbs.
U64079-003 1.70 lbs.
U64079-002 1.70 lbs.

I have had issues with the Pawnee spring loosing their arch on my Pacer and heavy Super Cubs.
 
Jason,

How often are you flying loaded down into rough strips?

big springs are needed to last, otherwise you end up having an unscheduled tailwheel removal...

Taxi ops need to be stick forward for turns, and sometimes the pilot has to see that it is so rough that he needs to lift and turn the tail, (get out of the seat?). X brace is also a very good idea...
 
George,

You know I keep it light :) that being said you have to re-arch them every few years as you beat them flat working when working them with a heavy load. Not that big of a deal and it's a good idea to replace attach hardware every few years too. The hand full of springs I have arched on cubs and pacers seem to be holding up fine under normal use. One more reason I like the 1.25 spring is because the spacer between the tail wheel and the spring takes the abuse and gets worn. If you bolt the tailwheel right to a 1.75 spring the head of the tailwheel gets worn out and loose on the spring over time. I think the AKBW spring is pretty darn good if you operate a heavy airplane. They got the hardness on the spring material correct which helps keep the arch. I think a Cessna type stinger would be the best type of tail spring.



Jason
 
Worn out spring was absolutely to blame. It was almost flat when compared to a new one. Thanks again everyone for the help and opinions. Almost everything under the frame is now courtesy of ABW! Airframe's 3" ext gear looks incredible, and makes the 850s look tiny! (31's later this week) almost done alaska-izing the cub.
 
This is a good discussion. Jason, I've had the same experience with elastic stop nuts backing off, and requiring re-torquing. What torque value do you use with the castle nuts?

Thanks. cubscout
 
I recently switched to the ABW spring and am very happy with it. Much more solid feel and not as squishy. It will still give you a little shimmy with the Baby Bushwheel if you three point on pavement but almost none comparatively.

Here's a video of a comparison of the two in landing on pavement.

 
I've never felt any shimmy with the 4 leaf Pawnee. Running the Gar-Aero tailwheel. No reason to change anything. This Pawnee spring has been bulletproof for many years, has not lost it's shape at all.... Use the high temp-all steel self-locking nuts on the spring bolts...never use the low-temp...less thread contact...less self-locking properties.
 
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AK Bushwheel makes a Piper spring but it is not yet certified. It is the same arch as the original Piper Super Cub tail spring and the same width as the Pawnee spring. It is made with better metallurgy in my opinion because it does not lose it's arch like the other springs I have used. Here are the weights of the various tailsprings:

AK Bushwheels 3 leaf tail springs 4.85 lbs. with their bracket 5.05 lbs
Univair 3 leaf from Clipper 3.10 lbs.
Univair Pacer/Super Cub 4 leaf 4.20 lbs with Piper bracket 4.35 lbs
Univair Pacer/Super Cub 4 leaf with bracket holding springs together 4.50 lbs
Univair Pawnee 4 leaf 6.2 lbs.I have picked up numerous ground looped Super Cubs and pacers and in my opinion a contributing factor to the accident was the lost arch in the tailspring. I install the AK Bushwheel Piper tailspring as an owner produced part.
View attachment 11697


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Steve, fast forward 10 years.. Have you installed any Airframes titanium tail springs as owner produced parts? Seems like the logic/reasoning then would be the same now? Or is there a catch there somewhere in your eyes?
 
AK Bushwheel makes a Piper spring but it is not yet certified. It is the same arch as the original Piper Super Cub tail spring and the same width as the Pawnee spring. It is made with better metallurgy in my opinion because it does not lose it's arch like the other springs I have used. Here are the weights of the various tailsprings:

AK Bushwheels 3 leaf tail springs 4.85 lbs. with their bracket 5.05 lbs
Univair 3 leaf from Clipper 3.10 lbs.
Univair Pacer/Super Cub 4 leaf 4.20 lbs with Piper bracket 4.35 lbs
Univair Pacer/Super Cub 4 leaf with bracket holding springs together 4.50 lbs
Univair Pawnee 4 leaf 6.2 lbs.I have picked up numerous ground looped Super Cubs and pacers and in my opinion a contributing factor to the accident was the lost arch in the tailspring. I install the AK Bushwheel Piper tailspring as an owner produced part.
View attachment 11697


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Steve, fast forward 10 years.. Have you installed any Airframes titanium tail springs as owner produced parts? Seems like the logic/reasoning then would be the same now? Or is there a catch there somewhere in your eyes?

I have not. I haven't had anyone want to spend that kind of money on a tailspring to save weight aft.
 
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