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I have lined up a new cub and I'm planning to fly it up from Alberta to Whitehorse. It has 31"s on it right now. I have heard the landing on pavement runways can be tricky with them. I have also heard that some people elect to land on the in field.
I am a new pilot with no experiance with bushwheels.
Any advice is appreciated.
thanks
If you're a new pilot you might consider sticking to runways (paved or otherwise) unless it's a spot you have seen other people land and are familiar with it. A new to you plane, a fresh ticket and an unfamiliar area might not be the best idea.
The 31's on pavement will grab a bit, so you need to make sure you are landing straight and not crabbed at all. If you've been landing on pavement in a taildragger already, the biggest difference might just be the deck angle and the height you feel you are when you touch down. As a new pilot, you probably won't notice that though.
Personally, I think landing with the 31's is easier paved runway or not.
Ease your way into the off airport stuff. Landing in an infield or next to a runway is a pretty logical step. Just make sure you're familiar with the area until you are damn sure you can get yourself out of a bind if you needed to, or you might end up the proud owner of a very expensive hat
FWIW, I've seen some pretty sore looking ABW's that land on hard surfaces. Once you see how much rubber can come off, you'll never want to land on a hard surface again. The lifetime is drastically reduced when landing on hard surfaces. I'll often take off on the runway, but ALWAYS (101%) land on the turf or other ground. (I have 31's.)
Glenn
There are no issues landing on pavement, the whole "spin-up inertia" idea has been blown way out of portion in my opinion. Even in nose heavy airplanes I don't ever find any tendency to pitch forward on pavement. Put 8psi in the tires and go!! You should enjoy the trip
Jason
I run 10 PSI in my tires and live on a paved Runway. 31" Bush wheels have been on for about three years and doing great. If you drop it in on a landing expect a bounce or three. I would and do set the plane up for landing and keep it straight and flair up about a foot off the run way with just a touch of throttle on, then just slightly drop back on the throttle tail low and let it settle in and touch the runway and stay on the rudder peddels to keep it straight, stick forward some drop the flaps to the first notch and keep the tail up and come to a smooth landing. Thats how I do it when it all works right, the rest of my landings I look like a kangaroo
New pilot
new aircraft
new to cubs...
Hire an instructor to spend a little time with you... and by instructor I mean a cub pilot that will help you with cub stuff.
I am only two hours from you, come on down and I will trade you some fishing time for my instructor time... meaning you can land me on some SAFE strips I want to go fishing on!
Jason is correct, the big tires are not that big of a deal. Mickey Thompson slicks are another story I am told, but bushwheels are nice to use, and I would put 12 psi in them to start, makes you work on the landings and saves wear. Use the ski strip at Whitehorse to land also.
Just pay attention when you land... any tailwheel can get away from you, pay attention; big tires take the blame, but often it is a tired pilot trying to get down and lets it get a bit misaligned...
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
The only problem I have had is getting the smile off my face after I land. Don,t lock your brake and pivot on one wheel if you can help it on tar that is hard on the tire. I never had any problem with 31"s on pavement.
DENNY
IMO, they won't give you any significant problem landing on blacktop, the main problem is protecting the rubber on the tires; the newer bush wheels are steel belted, but especially if they are the earlier style that wasn't steel belted, be CERTAIN to keep no less than 8 pounds of tire pressure. If the pressure is lower, the earlier model can wear the rubber quickly on the sidewall that just barely touches the blacktop. Do your best to just fly it onto the runway smoothly without dropping it, as that will also help save the tires. If you get the chance, land a few times on grass, gravel or sand to get the feel of the angle of attack and amount of power you need so that you have the feel of things before hitting the blacktop.
I really appreciate all the advice. I had a ground loop a month ago and really do not want to go thru that again if I can avoid it.
One thing to check is the tailwheel; I flew the Racing slicks which were mentioned (i.e. Mickey Thompsons) for many years and although I could almost land them while asleep on gravel, they did make me pay attention when on blacktop. I found with them that if the tailwheel had wobble in it, it made things more difficult. The Bushwheels are much more forgiving on blacktop, but a tail wheel wobble could make things harder for you. Just have somebody check that and if it is loose it can be repaired.
avoid black top if and when you can. but 31s will land where you want to go.
Jay Pratt
Paul Revere, Borrowed Horse, & Shooter
Your very first post asked about landing in the grass infield at the paved airports along your way. I do this often in our J-3 that has vintage Goodyear 25's on it. We are trying to save them because we don't think we can get them recapped again. I generally don't run into any trouble when doing this, but a couple points to note:
if there is any question about condition of the island, do a low approach at a slow, but comfortable airspeed. Look for gopher holes, storm drains/grates, VASI/PAPI lighting...etc. Anything that will ruin your day. Be smart...putting your Cub on its back does not balance against the cost of a set of Bushwheels when you wear down the rubber. Also you'll often see the island be terraced or have some kind of elevation change or slope from side to side. Best not to go there.
construction crews, I have seen in the past, will leave cabling sometimes out in the island. Whether they forget it, don't care, or what I can't say...but it will ruin your day when you run over it.
airport managers have raised their hackles at me in past for using "their" grass island. Invariably though I am asking forgiveness, not permission. Frankly, if it starts getting heated, I would ask them to show me in the FAR where it says I can't. Kind of like landing on a taxiway so as to be into the wind, doesn't say anywhere that you can't. Whatever the pilot deems safest and most prudent.
Good luck on your trip!
You might check some other threads on Bushwheels. I put 31" ABW on my super cub last summer and have babied them, given that I live on asphalt runways. To distill some of what I have learned, amplifying what was said earlier in this thread, here goes...
The most scuffing of tires occurs when taxiing, particularly when turning. I avoid quick turns.
Even though the taxiways are paved, it is fair game to taxi on the grass adjacent to the taxiway provided you know what obstacles exist!
The first long flight I made on the 31" was to meet up with some of the people on sc.org, in Northern WI. I overflew a runway, where I intended to land for fuel, and made sure there were no obstacles hidden in the grass, but it still made me nervous. That went OK. The next one was a disaster waiting to happen...
Rick Papp, Lou Furlong, Steve Lewis, Mike Mitchell, and John Jackson were coming from the East to meet up at the airport, and while you don't know them they are all experienced on big tires. I also know that they go out of their way to land on grass, and are very skilled in doing so. I wasn't. I heard them call in as they approached the airport, recognizing that they would arrive ahead of me. They did, and the flight leader announced their arrival, what runway they would land on and they all landed, without a word. I mistook this as meaning that they landed on the grass adjacent to the asphalt runway.
Bad assumption. Worse yet, I had so convinced myself that they were landing on the grass that I chose to enter the downwind, turn base, calling out those turns, setting up for final. No problem. I knew those knuckleheads were tying down, that they would be watching my landing and I was gonna make this a good one. Well, I made it an interesting one...
On final I decided to land on the grass to the right of the runway, it looked freshly mowed and as I got closer I could see what appeared to be the tire marks where my buddies had landed, so I set up to in line with those tracks. As I got closer I could see that the grass where "they landed", while freshly cut, was not exactly level...it had a bit of an inclination to it. I was a novice to landing on inclined surfaces but I thought what the heck, they did it...ALL of them...so I should have no problem.
Bad assumption. I touched down with my left wheel first and used the rudder to keep it straight, and at first this was no problem. As I slowed down, however, the right wing lowered. And lowered. And lowered and as my airspeed bled off I found it was taking all the rudder I could muster to keep it straight. I ran out of rudder shortly thereafter and I found myself going for a proverbial ride UP the steep incline toward the asphalt. The tail of the aircraft went right while the nose went to the left, despite my best attempt to apply full right rudder and I found myself up on the edge of the runway. At that point I decided to turn around there (I had rudder control at that point, since I was nearly on level ground) and taxi down the incline toward the FBO and my buddies.
That was another bad decision. I still had it in my mind that my buddies had made it, and despite the clear smell of urine from the landing phase, I started down the incline. The incline was much more pronounced than I had thought and it became no big surprise to find a distinct lack of need for throttle to keep the aircraft moving. Moving down a major incline. Fast. Toward the bottom of the ditch where the incline then rose to new heights. Fortunately, I was able to taxi along the bottom of the ditch to the taxiway, then to the ramp, where I found the gang.
They were about as speechless as I have ever seen this robust group of aviators. For those of you who know this group, speechless is not a term often applied to them. They had been watching the whole ordeal from inside the FBO, listening to me on the radio, their aircraft nicely tied down on the ramp where they had taxied AFTER LANDING ON THE ASPHALT!!!
It is only by sheer good fortune that none of these guys had their blasted iPhones shooting video of Randy's Wild Ride, and, to their credit, they have been gracious about not broadcasting this the moment we made it to New Holstein!
I share this with you, Klondiker, so that you might learn from my mistakes.
Randy
Your first mistake Randy was hangin with that particular crowd. You should limit your time with Okies.
This statement, and "hold my beer and watch this" are both common cues for calling 911 or Pierce Aero and recovery...Originally Posted by WindOnHisNose
Glad you were a survivor Randy, don't feel alone!
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
to less than a minute a year
Unless they own a 180
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
The view from inside the FBO terminal of Randy's arrival was quite spectacular. Between the "arrival", the comments about said arrival and the looks and expressions of everyone during and after the arrival..............well, you just had to have been there
Steve
Randy, you might want to ask Lou Furlong about landing IN THE GRASS in South Dakota sometime, right Steve?
Strangers are friends I have not met yet
Thanks for sharing Randy. I usaully not that lucky when it comes to friends not busting out their I-phones.
Hell, my ground loop made the local paper!
Randy, wish I was a mouse in the corner, I bet those guys had money going back and forth the whole time. Turned out you were not only the main attraction but a winner also keeping it right side up. Good for you, who won all the money ?
We all have storys like that, and more coming. Can only learn so much out of a book. The rest is hands on Experiance.
Bill
Deano-
I had forgotten about Lou needing a periscope to taxi through the grass to the ramp
Deano and Steve, this may explain why word of my "extreme landing" technique never made it back to 8D1Deano-
I had forgotten about Lou needing a periscope to taxi through the grass to the ramp
Seriously, though, it is an art and a discipline in learning to land in the grass in the airport environment. As was pointed out here, there can be many things hidden in the grass that can make the expense of new ABW a drop in the bucket compared to what damage can be done in the grass. "Your Ass is Grass" takes on a whole nother meaning!
Tires don't cause ground loops. Get some instruction and regain your confidence. Especially if you're getting into a Cub for the first time. Bushwheels are best suited for off airport environments. They're made for off airport environments. Have a local pilot mentor you and show you a few places to practice off airport. Lower the pressure to 5 or 6# in the tires and you'll eliminate most of your bounce potential. Fewer bounces, less chance to loop it. The forgiveness of a known unpaved surface will be more relaxing for you as you learn the plane. Minimize pavement ops, not because they're more difficult, they aren't, but because pavement will grind the rubber off those expensive tires faster than unpaved surfaces will. The lighter the plane the more you'll notice the tire "grab" as they spin up upon touchdown on hard surfaces. It shouldn't present any problem, it just surprises some people. Now you know, so no surprise. Enjoy the new plane.
My experience is that Bushwheels are the easiest tires to land on pavement when compared against 8.00x6, 8.50x6, and 26" Goodyears. They are not tricky, but rather, they are incredibly forgiving. I cannot imagine a better overall tire.
I would guess that the reason most people choose to land in the fields adjacent to the pavement is to preserve their tires from pavement wear. At 4000 bucks a set, I can understand this. However, Bushwheels will tell you that taxiing on pavement is particularly hard on the tires. Their recommendation is to takeoff and land wherever you will have to taxi the shortest distance. In other words, don't taxi a mile down the airport just to takeoff and land on the gravel strip if you can perform these operations much closer to your parking spot even if you must do it off the pavement.
Don't try landing on the grass at Sandpoint Idaho! The only place I have been " talked to" ( after the fact) about landing in the median. The airport manager fwiw. Real friendly but firm, not at his airport. I apologized (!?) and it was all good. What was he going to do, slap me on the wrist?
Courierguy, at our airport we have a lot of drainage channels in the grass, would hate to see someone flip over and say we shouldnt have had them there. Could end up being a big can of worms opened up. Just sayin.
I agree.....landing in the median (for lack of a better term), is just like a real off airport landing. That means no whining if it doesn't go well, at your own risk in other words. Anyone who landed in a median, and then whined when they screwed the pooch, should be laughed out of town.
Did the airport manager give a reason for "not on his field?" Other than his power trip I mean - cause it appears as though the Bonner County owns the airport, not the airport manager. Looks to me like there's 12-1300ft of median on both sides of the runway. I know better than to be snotty - but I'd like to know the basis - the legal basis - behind a manager telling you not to land in the grass. I'm sure this has been discussed before.
An airport manager where I was based before was real snarky with me in that regard. Offered to report me to the FAA for "careless and reckless" for landing on the grass. I tried to talk with him about it, to no avail. Sounded to me like the "power trip" mentioned above. I asked to see the Airport Policy Manual, but no joy. Hmmm, wonder why - nothing there to support the no grass position?
Gordon
N4328M KTDO
No reason stated, and I didn't ask. Didn't seem worth the hassle as he really was quite apologetic about it and a nice guy. Besides, I had already done it and it was easy to be magnimonous about it after the fact. Not my turf, the locals can work it out I figured
It would be a real tough call to prove careless and reckless because you landed in the grass in 200ft and taxied off. I'd try to get a pilot elected mayor (airport mgrs boss) and see if that could change his tune. Better yet - you run for mayor. Then you can order the policy manual written!
At my field, there is an actual parallel runway (8 and 8G) and the A/FD actually says that 8G is for gliders only. Well, the planes get towed up somehow and the powered planes have to come down, and they have to get trained and checked out as tug pilots in the grass, and then there's staying current and proficient. I'd say it's downright unsafe to NOT land in the grass! Of course 99% of the time I still land on the pavement. Big talk is cheap on the inner toobs.
In our litigous society I imagine a lot of airport manager types are looking out for their, and the airport's, best interests when chastising pilots about using any un-published grass on the airport. Its CYA mentality...plus a healthy dose of muscle flexing I am sure. What they don't realize is that any landing not on a published runway is understood to be at the pilot's own risk, and that frankly the pilot assumes that risk when attempting any landing or takeoff...runway or not. I hop rides in a 1920's biplane for a barnstorming outfit on occasion. The last two airshows I did for them were at towered fields. I arranged with the airport manager to tour a couple of the grass islands, picked one I liked for length and condition, and then called the tower controllers and explained my desire to use it. They didn't have any problem, but EVERY take off and landing I was told I was doing so "at my own risk". Given that the ATC coms are recorded, they had me on record accepting the liability. Your uncontrolled airport manager/operator does not have that luxury so prior permission is prudent, or else be ready to beg forgiveness.
Post Script - Before the advent of asphalt landing strips, the original, first generation aerodromes were nothing more than large square fields of grass/dirt. You lined up into the wind and landed any direction you pleased.
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