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Thread: 180 Flap question

  1. #1

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    180 Flap question

    On my 180K When I dump flaps after touch down with flaps 30 or 40 and I'm rolling out the handle will creep back to the flaps 10 notch most times and I have put it down again although I haven't looked to see if the flaps are coming down too I would assume so but...

    My question is this normal or something in need of adjustment?

    Thanks,

    Kirby
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  2. #2
    SJ's Avatar
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    Kirby,

    Personally, I don't think the risk of momentary distraction from dumping the flaps is worth any advantage on landing rollout in the 180. The last time I did it the winds were intense and I had somebody else run the flaps - that was on the way back from Gaston's last year!

    I don't think it really changed the outcome of the landing, but it did give Jim Dickerson something to do, and I felt pretty important calling for "flaps off".

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  3. #3
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    I shouldn't bother to get into it with our host about dumping or not.

    The 180 flap ratchet system will eventually wear and could allow the flaps to drop after you've retracted them. It could also wear and allow them to retract when you don't wish it.

    Also, the rigging procedure sets them "up" with 40 pounds of tension on the up cables. Sooooo.........if you are not placing the lever in the retracted position with some force.....while being distracted by landing roll-out duties.........they will drop to the first notch......

    ......it is not that unusual.

    As far as dumping or not....I dump...........those Cessna flaps make lift........when I touch down in a tail-low wheel landing, I want to stop the wing from flying......I want to put the weight of the airplane on that flexy gear.....so I dump flaps and allow the a/c to rotate tail up and weight the mains, NOT the wing......I can see over the nose that way.....the weight is on the mains for braking......and she won't pop back into the air unexpectedly.

    .....personal opinion..DMC

  4. #4

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    Thanks Dave, with what you describe I don't think I'm putting the handle down with enough force because after I see it back at 10 and put it down with more gusto it stays, so I'll try a bit more force while paying attention to keeping the spinning thing in the front.

    Kirby
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  5. #5
    aktango58's Avatar
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    I agree with Dave on the need to get flaps off, but I think we push the 180 a tad more than some might.

    When you pull and dump flaps, there is some serious reach issues from head up flying to pulling flaps; my solution was to set flaps at 10 prior to power, then I could reach and still see over the nose.

    On the other end I would 'dump' the flaps and not worry about getting them to 0. On the touchdown you will be preoccupied with many things, and putting your head down to get flaps zero instead of ten will at some point be your demise.

    Dump them to 10 and you will still get plenty of weight on the mains. Lower them the rest of the way once you are down, stopped and back to breathing normal...

    your milage may vary
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  6. #6
    skukum12's Avatar
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    X2 on Dave Caulkins, definately x3 on aktango. My flap handle sticks as well in the same situation. Fly the plane and don't worry about that last bit. My 54 gets REAL tail light on roll out with flaps down.

  7. #7
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    also check the pivot that latch is on, the hole gets wobbled out, maybe?? and while your nose is there, check for cracks in the plate the handle is welded to in the inside corners...

  8. #8

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    Kirby,

    Next time you land at full flaps let the plane roll down the runway while holding the tail off. It's effortless. Release the flaps to 20* and watch what happens. You won't be able to hold the tail up. Demonstration complete. Apply the lesson as you see fit. I can brake harder with the tail planted but I rarely need to. More importantly I can keep the plane planted to the ground while landing in gusty winds. There are situations where rapid flap retraction is a good technique to employ.

    My plane requires a good bump to engage the 0* flap lock. There's nothing wrong, that's just how it is.

    SB
    Last edited by sierra bravo; 05-29-2013 at 12:38 AM.

  9. #9
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    ..... the handle will creep back to the flaps 10 notch most times and I have put it down again although I haven't looked to see if the flaps are coming down too I would assume so but...
    This is normal, the flaps are rigged correctly. They do require a slight up force as the others have said. Just push the handle into the detent with your finger tips.
    N1PA

  10. #10
    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    I don't think the risk of momentary distraction from dumping the flaps is worth any advantage on landing rollout in the 180.
    .. except in Alaska...

    My comment was more about the conditions I believe Kirby to be flying in, and his being somewhat new in the 180, rather than the effectiveness of the procedure for which I have no doubt. I did flap dump training with the last person I checked out in a 180, I would just suggest you get a really good handle on the plane before you focus too much attention on it.

    My handle does the same thing. You have to push it down.

    sj

    P.S. Interestingly, FMD's 180 has 4 notches of flaps, and early "grab" notch that I had not seen before. Is this filed in much like on the super cub?
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  11. #11
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    sj, Not sure about the earlier model years, but if you look at the specs: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...20Rev%2067.pdf
    you will see that earlier than 1972 they did seem to have three settings other than up. Starting in 1972 the different settings seem to be omitted from the TC data. I do know that from 1972 and sub that there are detents at each 10 degree point to a max of 40 degrees for a total of four extended settings.
    N1PA

  12. #12
    SJ's Avatar
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    Interesting. This was a '53 and I have a '55 with only 3 notches.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  13. #13
    180Marty's Avatar
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    My now deceased friend that was an IA and owned a 55, filed a fourth notch into the ratchet deal for 10 degrees.

  14. #14

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    I like to dump flaps upon landing as well, but just dump them to 10, or push them up past the 10 detent and leave them unlocked, that way if a gust hits they will streamline. Then when you are slowed and under control lock them up, easy peasy. In my 63 I have to push down the flap handle to get them locked as well, so that is very normal for your bird as well. Hope this helps.

  15. #15

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    SJ: My '53 had three notches. Put in a later part with four notches or you can file in the notch. I always set 10 degrees for take off, so auto dump to 10 degrees is not necessarily a bad thing...Ready for a go around. (But not over the house at JC)

    Not to argue or dissagree with Dave or SJ.(Grand Pooh Bah's #1 and #2) I don't dump flaps on touch down unless it is real gusty or short and then I clean my shorts 'cause I shouldn't be there anyway.
    Light Hauler

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    sj, Not sure about the earlier model years, but if you look at the specs: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...20Rev%2067.pdf
    you will see that earlier than 1972 they did seem to have three settings other than up. Starting in 1972 the different settings seem to be omitted from the TC data. I do know that from 1972 and sub that there are detents at each 10 degree point to a max of 40 degrees for a total of four extended settings.
    The 10* flap setting was added in the 1963 F model.

  17. #17

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    Many thanks and SJ I truly appreciate the concern... I'm working at getting better/smoother/safer in my self-set condition limits rather than expanding those limits as I've experienced "those conditions" at Noah's and all I have to say is "Thank you - NO!"

    In good ole' mid-west gusty conditions I feel better getting the mains heavy ASAP and the tail down in good order so that breaking is safer should the tap dance change from Happy Feet to Oh **** Feet.

    Thinking about this conversation, I get the flap handle down to 10 without much movement on my part (short legs, I sit close) but I was concerned that when they creeped back @ 10 that I was creating more lift than at 40 but that tail drop example helped much and in reality I'm guessing (because I ain't looking there) that they creep back after I'm well slowed and the apparent wind pressure reduces, at least I notice them when I go back for cowl flaps once the tail is firmly planted and all is right with the world.

    Again many thanks, and keep the comments moving my way.

    Kirby
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  18. #18

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    You can explore the lift of different settings by using different settings at take-off. Get the plane's tail up using 20* flaps and reduce power to maintain a tail-up high speed taxi. Increase flaps to 40* and watch the plane leave the ground. You'll need considerable forward pressure on the yoke to keep the nose down/airspeed up but it'll demonstrate your plane will fly sooner at 40* than at 20*. Watch Skywagon guys on floats and most will use 20* to get on step and will pull the bar to 30* or higher to release the plane from the water. The same technique is applicable to wheel ops when you want to get the wheels out of the rocks/sand/puddles and fly in ground effect to gain speed.

  19. #19
    Aktahoe's Avatar
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    All this talk about dumping flaps on landing. I don't agree unless your doing 60 when you land. You use the flaps to slow you down correct? Well when you touch down at 40 your not getting back in the air unless you Cobb the throttle. The flaps also act as a brake. Dumping them only increases your rollout. The big flaps hanging down are great brakes. Now if you need to do a last minute go around you can dump them a notch or two but again doing a go around with 40 is not a bad option either contrary to some. The thought of having someone other than you operating the flaps when landing is just poor technique IMO in a skywagon. Same goes for not usi g flaps when it's windy. For me it's always 40.

    Im certain this will bring some disagreements...

    AKT

  20. #20

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    The difference between 40mph and 60mph at touchdown may be as simple as a 20mph gust. Pretty common.

  21. #21
    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aktahoe View Post
    The thought of having someone other than you operating the flaps when landing is just poor technique IMO in a skywagon. Same goes for not usi g flaps when it's windy.
    It was really, really, windy... and there were four pilots on board

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  22. #22
    CubDriver218's Avatar
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    With our 76 180J Robertson STOL I was always taught that 2 notches of flaps provides the most lift - if you were to do a go around or what not. Once you get into the 3rd and 4th notch they provide more drag and are not recommended for a go around or take-off. I've also been taught to get the flaps off as soon as feasibly possible for a short landing so you can reduce lift and utilize your brakes which will slow you down a lot faster than just letting the flaps hang out. I've never cared much for the term "Dumping" the flaps. Nice and smooth works better for me. I got notch at a time and try to get a feel for what the plane is doing. The last notch to zero definitely takes a little force to get it to lock in which can be distracting and a far reach while landing. I like the idea of just getting it past 10 degrees and forget about latching it until you're slowed to the point where it's not a hazard.
    Using 40 degrees of flaps in a crosswind presents the problem of the upwind side creating much lift while the downwind side is blanketed by the fuselage. I used to know a guy who would do 40 degrees all the time for every situation. He'd say "I paid good money for those flaps, and by god I'm gonna use em" Well... you pay good money for your brakes too and you don't drive around town with your foot on the brakes dragging them constantly either.
    Different schools of thought. I always enjoy hearing what other people do as I feel you can learn something from everyone, and I never want to stop learning when it comes to flying.
    Fast or slow, always low, freedom of flight soothes the soul.

  23. #23
    Aktahoe's Avatar
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    Sierra I certainly dont disagree with you but I still dont dump em. They are brakes IMO. Just three days ago....conditions at Canyonlands as an example...Left quartering headwind at 31 gusting 46. Full flap landing, no dump and stoping within 50' or so. Had I dumped the flaps my roll out would have been longer (the last thing you want when its windy again, IMO).

    I just see far to often guys coming in way to fast and rolling out in 3-500'. I believe using the flaps to your advantage and you will cut those roll out distances in half. I can tell you honestly I think about the idea of dumping my flaps on every landing and it just does not make sense. I dump em when the plane is on the ground and I am in taxi mode. Not landing mode.

    AKT

  24. #24
    SJ's Avatar
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    Not a bad description of flaps. Sometimes people think they are for something other than for what they were intended: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flap_(aircraft)

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  25. #25
    Aktahoe's Avatar
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    Anyone watch a short field landing contest lately? No dumping of the flaps. They are brakes. (And for clarification, conditions will change this perspective...Icy runway, water on runway, etc.) Dumping the flaps on touchdown actually increases your ground speed as your losing a big hanging brake.

    AKT

  26. #26
    Ruffair's Avatar
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    Kirby you could just shave that shag carpet you got under the handle.!

    Kem
    "...We're fast enough to get there, But slow enough to see..."
    Fron the song "Barometer Soup". By Jimmy Buffett

  27. #27

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    SJ:

    Good one. I am going to put this on a sticker and put it on my flap handle for quick reference on landing:

    where:

    • L is the amount of Lift produced,
    • is the air density,
    • V is the indicated airspeed of the airplane or the Velocity of the airplane, relative to the air
    • S is the planform area or Surface area of the wing and
    • is the lift coefficient which is determined by the camber of the airfoil used, the chord of the wing and the angle at which the wing meets the air (or angle of attack).
    Light Hauler

  28. #28
    Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aktahoe View Post
    ..Left quartering headwind at 31 gusting 46. Full flap landing, no dump and stoping within 50' or so. Had I dumped the flaps my roll out would have been longer (the last thing you want when its windy again, IMO).
    AKT
    At these speeds and full flaps my 180 is either flying, or on the verge...

    Most of the chatters on this thread have big engined 3 bladers... ever stand next to your plane at idle and notice how much thrust that thing is making? Even at idle with full flaps and 40 mph my plane is not happy to be sitting it wants to fly...

    90% of the time I am in the camp of ditching the flaps as soon as practicable ... which may mean at touch down, a few feet later, it may even mean 2' off the ground... Not because I want the shortest landing at the fly in, but because If I'm landing I want the airplane to quit flying

    I believe SB's test is a good one and as usual his thought process as well...

    I also think a newer pilot stays stagnant, or keeps learning... kind of like flying in the wind or leaving it tied down.... If my thinking is correct, Kirby is new to his 180, but not a new pilot

    Take care, Rob

  29. #29
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    ....what was your airspeed on short final?????

  30. #30
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    PS.....that was a trick question!

  31. #31
    Rob's Avatar
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    Dave, how's the '53 coming?

  32. #32
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    ....what was your airspeed on short final?????

    56 with horton: 40 mph light, 45 with load, but don't know over the fence, to busy to look.

    getting rid of flaps also reduced bounce from uneven ground. AK- your technique works good for you, but in rough conditions it will cause you lots of grief. imho
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  33. #33

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    Rob,

    Good call on where I am, about 120 hrs in the past 9 months (with way to much A-B time, but I bought it to go places) in the 180 and yep an 88" 3 blade on a 520 and it definitely wants to go... all the time!

    Kirby

    Ps. to my friends out there, if you think yourself good in a cub... go try a 180. Cessna should have name it the "HumblePieWaggon"
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  34. #34
    Rob's Avatar
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    Dave,

    I am not one of the super heroe's Consequently with the Robbie I target a whopping 50 mph the last time I care to look at anything inside. I know this bleeds down to 37ish on touchdown, which is why I posted what I did to AKT. At the wind speeds he's relating I'm surprised it took him 50' to get it stopped!

  35. #35

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    Keep in mind that releasing the flaps and dropping the tail is hard on equipment. I like to operate my plane as smoothly as possible including when operating short. At the end of the day the quality of the landing is usually a reflection of the quality of the approach. Airspeed and descent control rule. Light, heavy, smooth air, crosswind, turbulent... the rule applies to all. I like the landings where you can feel individual grains of gravel as the mains touch down. Hold the tail up until near the turnout, then lower it softly. Sometimes the plop and stop is required but I appreciate smooth landings more whether I'm flying or watching. The heavier the plane and the worse the conditions the more respect the driver earns. That I have friends who do it routinely in 300-400'? Very cool. Different strokes for different folks.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffair View Post
    Kirby you could just shave that shag carpet you got under the handle.!

    Kem
    Well I have been remiss at raking it, next thing your gonna say is the fuzzy dice are messing with the compass!
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 05-29-2013 at 02:00 PM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  37. #37
    S2D's Avatar
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    Kirby,
    I wouldn't advise you against dumping flaps if that is what you want to do, but I would advise you not to worry about getting that last 10 deg, simply because all it is going to take is one time looking down to see that it is just perfect to be calling your insurance man.
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.

  38. #38
    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    Kirby,
    I wouldn't advise you against dumping flaps if that is what you want to do, but I would advise you not to worry about getting that last 10 deg, simply because all it is going to take is one time looking down to see that it is just perfect to be calling your insurance man.
    S2D said it so much better than I did...
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  39. #39
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    The answer to my trick question is:

    ...why are you looking at the ASI on short final? .....and I was wondering why it took 50 feet to get stopped, too! No offense....aktahoe! Maybe it was high altitude and really turbulent.

    Rob, the '53 needs wires, switches, radios, and instruments. Paint is done. Engine is on it, mostly. The original scheme in red and polish knocks MY SOCKS OFF!!

    I can put a 180/185 tail together in 2 hours, easy. The wings will take a day, including flap and aileron install, if everything goes well. Oh, gotta put the new bladders in...yuck! The interior is planned, but can wait til after hunting season this year.

    ...having other airplanes to fly does not make it easy to get in the shop and hammer down.

  40. #40
    Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    The answer to my trick question is:

    ...why are you looking at the ASI on short final? .....and I was wondering why it took 50 feet to get stopped, too! No offense....aktahoe! Maybe it was high altitude and really turbulent.

    Rob, the '53 needs wires, switches, radios, and instruments. Paint is done. Engine is on it, mostly. The original scheme in red and polish knocks MY SOCKS OFF!!

    I can put a 180/185 tail together in 2 hours, easy. The wings will take a day, including flap and aileron install, if everything goes well. Oh, gotta put the new bladders in...yuck! The interior is planned, but can wait til after hunting season this year.

    ...having other airplanes to fly does not make it easy to get in the shop and hammer down.

    Dave,
    Love that scheme! And it will save you 30+ lbs. in weight that the rest of us have to live with

    Don't envy you on the wing hanging though. Right bladder will be a cake walk, angle tanks are easier to reach everything. Left tank will take twice as long if the vent hasn't been updated yet...

    'Heard' of any tricks to get more rudder for guys with wingX or Rstol?

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