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New member building a PA18-95

Jim A.

Registered User
Cloquet, MN
Hello everyone,

I'm a new member and a first time builder. I'm going to scratch build a PA18-95. I have Wag Aero PA11 plans and the Northland CD, fuse print/book, and the erection manual. I hope to get some good advice from people who have been there and done that. I've wanted to build for years and I have researched the Barrow's designs, the Christavia, and actually bought plans for a Fisher Dakota Hawk. I've finally decided to build a Supercub because I feel it's the most proven design for what I want and if I come across something I don't want to or can't build, I can likely buy it. Here are the facts: I have a C90-8. I will operate from wheels, floats, and skis. I want a bare bones machine. I am not planning on electric and I want to keep it as sparse and light as possible. I am not a bush pilot, but I want to do things that I'm not comfortable doing in my 172. I'm going to start with the wings. Unless someone talks me out of it, I'm not planning on flaps.

My first question is: Should I build wood or aluminum wings? Wag plans call for either, Northland plans aluminum. I know the Wag ribs are slightly different from Supercub ribs. I don't want to get too exotic or fancy and I don't want to create problems later because I strayed from the beaten path with my wings. My fuselage will be Supercub, not PA11. I' m leaning towards wood because I'm under the assumption it will be slightly lighter in the end.

My second question is: If going with wood, how do I make substitutions into the Northland plans and not create problems for myself later or create an unsafe wing?
 
There are no right or wrong ways to do it. You will get many opinions here, and they are just that, opinions. Wood, Alum, both work great for the wings. Not much difference in weight. Did 2 PA11s, one wood and one Alum. No difference. The one thing I would do if you are going to fly floats, is put a starter on it. Sure you can do it without one, but one day you will want to fly off a lake and the wind and trees are in the wrong position. Then you wish you had the starter.
Do it the fastest way possible so you can get the floats on and start flying and come up to the cabin for a fish dinner.
 
Welcome Jim,

I'm currently rebuilding a PA11. My next plane I'd do from scratch too. Keep at it.

Flaps: if you're not going to do any serious back country or short field stuff, I vote to leave them off. Unless you decide to go with a bigger moter, in which case you should sell me your C90 :)

Please post progress and pictures of your project.
Chris

Posted Using the Free SuperCub.Org Android App!
 
Welcome Jim,
I'm scratch building a Wag 2+2 with wood wings; everything documented since day one on my web site. All the great help I have gotten over the years is there for the taking. I'm 30 days till retirement so the rest of the project should go a lot faster. Welcome aboard.

Marty57
 
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Jim,
my dad and I are about 4 months ahead of you. We started building a PA-18-95 at the first of the year. We choose to make the wings out of aluminum. The spars and the T rail for ribs came from Carlson Aircraft. The other materials have been coming from Air Parts in Kansas City. Also some other odds and ends are being scavaged up on the secondary market. I'm not sure what the wing will weigh but we should known in about a month or two when its completely assembled, minus the covering of course. So far I think we have about $3000 in parts. We have been using the Northland plans and Christian's website plus we are fortunate enough to have some local Cub builders that have been helpful answering our questions. One more thing, we choose to go aluminum spars because factory made wood spars were much more expensive but I am sure if you made them yourself you could probably save money.
 

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Jim,
my dad and I are about 4 months ahead of you. We started building a PA-18-95 at the first of the year. We choose to make the wings out of aluminum. The spars and the T rail for ribs came from Carlson Aircraft. The other materials have been coming from Air Parts in Kansas City. Also some other odds and ends are being scavaged up on the secondary market. I'm not sure what the wing will weigh but we should known in about a month or two when its completely assembled, minus the covering of course. So far I think we have about $3000 in parts. We have been using the Northland plans and Christian's website plus we are fortunate enough to have some local Cub builders that have been helpful answering our questions. One more thing, we choose to go aluminum spars because factory made wood spars were much more expensive but I am sure if you made them yourself you could probably save money.

Jim
Welcome, you might want to also call Jay at www.Javroninc.com for parts or a fuselage.
Kizoom
Did you buy the ribs complete, or the parts to do it your self? Could you weigh one for me?
 
Sounds like some great projects here! You might consider the Taylorcraft airfoil if not looking for best STOL. Has better performance in cruise at a slight loss in low speed. D&E sells the Taylorcraft ribs in addition to the Cub. Just a thought and something I would consider for future.
 
Larry, we put the ribs together ourselves. A full length rib comes in at 13oz and we have an original Piper rib which is 9oz. I will say that these new ribs seem a lot more robust than the old Piper ribs, I don't think that I will have to repair them after 40 years of wear and tear.
 
Thank you to everyone who has responded to my post. This is wonderful information and advice. Please keep them coming. I'm reading and researching what everyone has posted. I should have asked, what are the advantages/disadvantages to wood vs aluminum?
 
Thank you to everyone who has responded to my post. This is wonderful information and advice. Please keep them coming. I'm reading and researching what everyone has posted. I should have asked, what are the advantages/disadvantages to wood vs aluminum?

Pick the material you prefer to work in / what tools you have.

Timber for the spars is difficult to come across, but it is not insurmountable.

I don't like the idea of an all wood wing, because the ribs are glued to the spar and sliding out a spar to replace it is not really an option like it is with aluminium ribs..... wood or aluminium spar. But the idea is not to crash it, so it may be an issue you never have to face.

Andrew.
 
Jim,
Seems to me that Lowrider recently posted that he has a set of ribs or spars available that he won't be using... don't recall exactly what. May help in a decision???

Mark J (just up the road from you)
 
Jim, Its good to see another person building a 90 supercub. I have never heard of anyone that ever had or has a 90 supercub/pa11 that doesn't speak very highly of it. I sure have enjoyed the one I have (homebuilt)
I would suggest putting flaps on it as I can tell quite a difference on takeoff or landing with flaps versus no flaps. I would guess that my takeoff and landing roll are shortened by a good 30% or so. That being said, you will do yourself a big favor by building it light and simple, and flaps will add to weight and complexity. They are worth the extra 15 lbs to me though.
 
Although your not building it to sell....

Building aluminum spar wings will probably be a lot easier to sell when the time comes.

Keeping as many parts the same as piper parts will also make future maintenance issues easier.
 
Hello everyone,

I'm a new member and a first time builder. I'm going to scratch build a PA18-95. I have Wag Aero PA11 plans and the Northland CD, fuse print/book, and the erection manual. I hope to get some good advice from people who have been there and done that. I've wanted to build for years and I have researched the Barrow's designs, the Christavia, and actually bought plans for a Fisher Dakota Hawk. I've finally decided to build a Supercub because I feel it's the most proven design for what I want and if I come across something I don't want to or can't build, I can likely buy it. Here are the facts: I have a C90-8. I will operate from wheels, floats, and skis. I want a bare bones machine. I am not planning on electric and I want to keep it as sparse and light as possible. I am not a bush pilot, but I want to do things that I'm not comfortable doing in my 172. I'm going to start with the wings. Unless someone talks me out of it, I'm not planning on flaps.

My first question is: Should I build wood or aluminum wings? Wag plans call for either, Northland plans aluminum. I know the Wag ribs are slightly different from Supercub ribs. I don't want to get too exotic or fancy and I don't want to create problems later because I strayed from the beaten path with my wings. My fuselage will be Supercub, not PA11. I' m leaning towards wood because I'm under the assumption it will be slightly lighter in the end.

My second question is: If going with wood, how do I make substitutions into the Northland plans and not create problems for myself later or create an unsafe wing?

Q1- Agreed wood is lighter.. however with your plan to stay light you might punch 3" holes in the front and 2" in the rear spar saving a couple # per side. If you use Plaschems Carbon leading edge (very strong) and leave out the short ribs you save another several pounds. Hanger rash proof LE alone is worth it. Either way (wood/metal), I tend to lean toward metal spars for resale and because I have more metal experience.

LIGHT- If you are serious about light.. Oratex fabric saves a lot of labor and weight (20-30# savings).. no interior
helps in that effort as well. A simple rule that helps (light) = (If it doesn't help support it's own weight, don't do it)

Q2- Like Roger sez.. it's all good many choices may be based on what is available or your knowledge.

FLAPS- All about your dream.. however a lot of bang for <4# per side! the overhead handle is the only way to go.. better visibility and much easier to rig. Possibly rig them so you get more throw and run the flap all the way to the fuselage. Personal preference but I like the 'trigger' on the back side of the handle so it's released as you grip, the CC finger release seems a bit clumsy.

Are you doing anything to the engine before installation? If so you might consider higher compression, a good polish/port job and a good exhaust does wonders. Electronic ignition sounds good but a lot of extra stuff, keep it simple as possible.

One thing for sure.. what ever your budget we can all find suggestions on how to spend it!

good luck

frank
 
Frank, do you happen to have any pictures of your flap setup before your wings were covered?
 
Jim,
Seems to me that Lowrider recently posted that he has a set of ribs or spars available that he won't be using... don't recall exactly what. May help in a decision???

Mark J (just up the road from you)

I have a set of Carlson cub spars in their wrappers and one full rib for sale but I don't think they will help Jim because they are in Idaho and would be expensive to ship.

Jim,

Welcome and you've chosen a wonderful site to become a member. I'm new here too but have learned a lot in a few months and have gotten a lot of help from the members. Good luck with your plane and put flaps on it...it was a hard decision for me but I'm sold on them now...besides...planes are supposed to have them!!
 
I've decided. Going aluminum and with flaps. Roger and Marty, your wings are beautiful. After viewing your pictures however, reality set in. I have spent more time butchering and burning wood than working with it. Drilling holes in framing members to accomodate wiring/plumbing, not to mention the sometimes unsavory things I have had to do with a sawsall to accomodate ductwork, have not developed my finish carpentry skills. My first build better involve more metal than wood.

I am going to build my own ribs like Kizoom. Pattern ribs, spars, and T rail will come from Carlson. I wish I had a trip planned to Idaho Lowrider! Roger, if you and your son built that -11 fuse, I'm sure it's top knotch, but I want to start with a pile of tubing and be -18. Thanks though.

Thanks to everyone for the input. Time to build a work table, create a material list, and buy some aluminum.

Jim
 
70 degrees, 28% humidity and not a cloud in the sky....Idaho...worth the trip!!
 
I spent some money today. I didn't buy lumber and I didn't buy aluminum. I did however talk to Bob Barrows from Bearhawk again. I' ve talked to him three times now and each time he has been patient, straight forward, and he's answered all of my questions. I know he' s in the business of selling his design, but he gives me the impression that he knows what he's talking about. His proto now has what is essentially a C-90 hanging on the front of it. It weighs 738 pounds. This is with interior, basic VFR, no flaps, no electric, and no changes from his plans. (Other than a bigger engine). Bob doesn't think the aircraft need's flaps and I don't disagree, but from what I've read here, I think I want them. He said I'd gain 20 pounds and lose 2 mph in cruise. He said I wouldn't benefit much in landing from a speed standpoint, (How much slower do you need to go? Was the impression I got), but he didn't argue much about possible gains with floats and from TO with wheels. He also said it was possible to do from scaled down Patrol plans if one was wiling to spend the time and really wanted a flap handle. 758 pounds, flaps, 170 sq. ft. of wing with less drag sounds like something to take a look at before I buy any materials. I can still build my table. I now have more money in plans than what some guys have in materials to build one wing. I just want to be somewhat sure I've looked at all the options that seem right for me before I start a scratch build. I know this isn' t a Bearhawk sounding board, but I thought I'd share what I learned today to possibly help someone else and get thoughts from other people who have traveled this path before.

Thanks,

Jim
 
Lots of great planes out there but few fill the mission and still fly as sweet as a Cub. Total opinion based on flying over 40 different TW aircraft. E2 Cub - PT17. I know, I'm no help at all :roll:

Glenn
 
Glenn,

I value and appreciate your opinion along with the other responses to my thread. The fact is I don't know. I haven't built before. I haven't been around Cubs and TW aircraft all my life. There are most likely guys on this forum who have been flying and or building Cubs/similar aircraft longer than I've been alive and I definitely want their input. It may not make my decision easier, but at least I'll have some information to make a decision from. This is what I know for sure: The Cub is proven. Some variation of it would fit my needs. Is there a step by step manual on how to build one? Unfortunately no. Is there more than one way to build a Cub? Definitely yes. Are there easier aircraft to build from plans? Yes. Do they measure up to a Cub? Not any from the plans I have seen. Is the Bearhawk LSA worth building and will it somewhat measure up to a Cub? I don't know. Should I take a look at it before I pull the trigger on a Cub build? Yes.


Thanks again,


Jim
 
It is difficult to couch a response to your question without sounding like bagging the Bearhawk. But a couple of things worth considering and thinking about:
1. How many different Patrol LSA's are there that you can go and look at and/or get a ride in?
2. How many Cubs are there that you can go and look at and/or get a ride in?
3. There are many different suppliers of Cub parts and as far as building one goes, you can fabricate as many or as few parts as you want, and buy as many or as few as you want. I know there are some kits and parts for the Patrol, but the type isn't as well served as the Cub.
4. What do you want? A Cub or a Patrol? I think a lot of the people that would opt for a Patrol, either just don't want to build a Cub or just want something different. I really doubt what is "better" comes into it, though they will justify it by saying that it is better.

I would also sit down with the drawings of each and get it clear in your own mind which is going to be the more straight forward to build. Get some help from someone who has built if you haven't built before.

All the best,
Andrew.
 
Bob doesn't think the aircraft need's flaps and I don't disagree, but from what I've read here, I think I want them. He said I'd gain 20 pounds and lose 2 mph in cruise.

Jim,
Did Bob elaborate on the 2 mph speed loss? What did he attribute to the 2 mph? Was it drag on the hinges? Air leakage through the slot? A curious mind would like to know. If it is hinge drag, then some of that can be eliminated with the use of fairings. Same thing with the slot.
 
Andrew,

I have been struggling with point 4 and your last sentence the most. The first three points I already know the answer to and the answer is build a Cub.

Point 4 is a tough one. 792 pounds is what I want the aircraft to weigh in the end. This may seem like a strange number, but I came to it like this: 1320- 360lbs of humans-168lbs of gas(24 gal.)=792. I think 90- 100 horsepower would throw this around quite nicely under 170-180 square foot of wing. I want to go with aluminum spars and ribs. I want flaps. Speed is nice, but STOL is more important to me. Can I build a fairly stock PA-18-95 with flaps and achieve my goal end weight? I think it will be tough. I can live without interior and electric. I could probably afford Oratex fabric when the time comes. I really would have a hard time modifying the wing structure and fuselage much and not be concerned about it. The Bearhawk LSA claims to fit the weight I want to achieve, but it has a heavier, cleaner, smaller wing. I don't know much, but with a heavier, smaller wing, the weight reduction has had to come from lightening the fuselage and landing gear. This doesn' t appeal to me either. I couldn't agree with you more. It's not a matter of which airplane is better. They are different machines.

As far as plans go, like you said, I'll have to compare the two and decide which will be the easier for a first timer like me to build. I'll ask my A&P and the few scratchbuilders I know what they think and go from there.

Thanks again,

Jim
 
Skywagon,

He didn't elaborate much and I didn' t know enough to ask. I think he said that by adding flaps I would be slightly changing the wings efficiency. This made sense to me since it would no longer be an uninterrupted surface and I left it at that.

Sorry,

Jim
 
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