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Thread: Cessna 180 Paint and Avionics upgrade

  1. #1
    dalec's Avatar
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    Cessna 180 Paint and Avionics upgrade

    I have finally decided to take the plunge and pull one of my KX-155 nav/coms and CDI and replace them with a GTN-650 and new CDI. This will be done this spring and I am considering a paint job at that time. With the cost of paint and avionics upgrades I am considering flying it outside for the work. Anyone have some good suggestions? BTW my C-180 has a center panel stack with some space available already so the avionics upgrade should not be that difficult.

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    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    cant help but to mention your byline.

    I am sure you can find decent and great shops in lower 48.........but cheaper?

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    cant help but to mention your byline.
    Funny! I missed that!

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    What's a paint job cost in Alaska now days, say using two colors?

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    I'll bet you'll have a hard time finding better or much cheaper avionics work than Northern Lights Avionics.

    Aerotronics in Billings does great work as well, but do you REALLY want cheap paint OR avionics work?

    whats the gas to and from, plus the airfare round trip going to cost?

    MTV

  6. #6
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    I'll bet you'll have a hard time finding better or much cheaper avionics work than Northern Lights Avionics.
    MTV
    was in there last week.. they are at $110 an hour, min 2 hours.... I am at $85 (but obviously slower since thats not ALL I do..) I used to always send stuff to radio shops telling customer the radio shop charges same rate per hour as me and is faster.... not so anymore I guess they must have the new fancy building payments....

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    was in there last week.. they are at $110 an hour, min 2 hours.... I am at $85 (but obviously slower since thats not ALL I do..) I used to always send stuff to radio shops telling customer the radio shop charges same rate per hour as me and is faster.... not so anymore I guess they must have the new fancy building payments....
    My point was to go outside and save $$ you're going to burn up what...$2500 to3500 in gas money alone. And GOOD avionics types don't work cheap anywhere.

    MTV

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    Dale,

    If I needed another paint job I'd do my best to convince Willard Sawyer to do it (Northern Aircraft Painting @ Wolf Lake). I hear he's going to retire again but if I could convince him to do just one more I'd sure as hell try. He painted my plane 13 years ago and it still looks better than what most paint shops are putting out. I've never heard a single negative comment about Willard's work and I know lots of other Cessna owners who've used him. If he does retire for good, it's our loss. I hope somebody steps up and fills that very high quality niche. Perhaps some Alaska guys will provide feedback for other painters out there. Aside from Willard I wouldn't know who to call.

    Lots of guys can install radios. NLA is better than most but your install doesn't sound very complicated so that should open the doors to other options. Beware. A new radio will make everything else look old. That can be the start of something expensive.

    SB

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    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra bravo View Post
    Dale,

    If I needed another paint job I'd do my best to convince Willard Sawyer to do it (Northern Aircraft Painting @ Wolf Lake). I hear he's going to retire again but if I could convince him to do just one more I'd sure as hell try. He painted my plane 13 years ago and it still looks better than what most paint shops are putting out. I've never heard a single negative comment about Willard's work and I know lots of other Cessna owners who've used him. If he does retire for good, it's our loss. I hope somebody steps up and fills that very high quality niche. Perhaps some Alaska guys will provide feedback for other painters out there. Aside from Willard I wouldn't know who to call.

    Lots of guys can install radios. NLA is better than most but your install doesn't sound very complicated so that should open the doors to other options. Beware. A new radio will make everything else look old. That can be the start of something expensive.

    SB
    Plus 1 in my opinion.

    Also.....the bold print in SB's comment could not be more true!!!!!

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    dalec's Avatar
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    Stewart and Dave, valid comments about the paint jobs that Willard has done, beautiful work. It was my understanding he was done and I haven't seen anything up here to compare to his work. If I am going to shell out 15k or more for paint and another 25k for radio upgrades I want a good job.

    The guys at Northern lights are expensive and the couple of times I have visited with them they left me with the impression that they didn't care whether they did the work or not. I have a really straight and light 180 with center stack radios and a basic IFR panel. The work I am doing has kept me in Southeast Alaska all winter. I have the range to be comfortable flying down here with the Monarch aux tanks. I just want to upgrade the Nav gear in my plane to allow me a little more comfort with bringing my plane down to this neck of the woods.

    As to the comment about what we get to cheap we value too little. I don't view $40,000.00 or so in upgrades as cheap, some might but I don't. I just want good value for the money I am willing to spend enhancing my aircraft's value and functionality. In fairness to Northern lights I will give them one more shot at quoting the avionics upgrades as I was quoted $25,000.00 installed by PCA yesterday and that strikes me as a fair price.

    Mike as to your comment about the cost of flying outside for the work. I am taking that into consideration and although I would love the flying time taking the plane south, if I can get the work done in Alaska in a timely, professional and price competitive manner I will always do it in Alaska.
    Last edited by dalec; 04-19-2013 at 07:23 PM. Reason: additional info

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    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    I've lived in the Pacific NW for the last 22 years since I left Alaska. And have gotten to know quite a few shops. If I had the money (Which I don't with two kids in college!) I would have Sunquest at Paine Field do the paint. And Greg at Aero Maintenance in Vancouver, WA do the avionics.

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    OnTop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalec View Post
    Stewart and Dave, valid comments about the paint jobs that Willard has done, beautiful work. It was my understanding he was done and I haven't seen anything up here to compare to his work. If I am going to shell out 15k or more for paint and another 25k for radio upgrades I want a good job.

    The guys at Northern lights are expensive and the couple of times I have visited with them they left me with the impression that they didn't care whether they did the work or not. I have a really straight and light 180 with center stack radios and a basic IFR panel. The work I am doing has kept me in Southeast Alaska all winter. I have the range to be comfortable flying down here with the Monarch aux tanks. I just want to upgrade the Nav gear in my plane to allow me a little more comfort with bringing my plane down to this neck of the woods.

    As to the comment about what we get to cheap we value too little. I don't view $40,000.00 or so in upgrades as cheap, some might but I don't. I just want good value for the money I am willing to spend enhancing my aircraft's value and functionality. In fairness to Northern lights I will give them one more shot at quoting the avionics upgrades as I was quoted $25,000.00 installed by PCA yesterday and that strikes me as a fair price.

    Mike as to your comment about the cost of flying outside for the work. I am taking that into consideration and although I would love the flying time taking the plane south, if I can get the work done in Alaska in a timely, professional and price competitive manner I will always do it in Alaska.
    Garmin has a rebate program going right now so check in with your Garmin dealer. It lasts til May 31st so hurry.

    Those prices are ASTRONOMICAL!! Do some shopping. The shop I work at will upgrade two GNS430's to two GTN650's in a cirrus (read: no panel work, already waas capable, and pre-existing tidy wiring) in two and a half days for $14k.

    Granted the cirrus, because of it's age, is likely to be less messy behind the panel and therefore require less install time but $25k is ridiculous!

    Just sayin...

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    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnTop View Post
    Garmin has a rebate program going right now so check in with your Garmin dealer. It lasts til May 31st so hurry.

    Those prices are ASTRONOMICAL!! Do some shopping. The shop I work at will upgrade two GNS430's to two GTN650's in a cirrus (read: no panel work, already waas capable, and pre-existing tidy wiring) in two and a half days for $14k.

    Granted the cirrus, because of it's age, is likely to be less messy behind the panel and therefore require less install time but $25k is ridiculous!

    Just sayin...
    Yeah I guess I am not following this! I flew 185's for a living in 907. I don't recall ever filing or flying IFR. Thinking about pulling my vacuum system and really going VFR in my personal 180..........

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    IFR southeast is pretty hardcore, maybe not the best for a 180. High MEAs and high approach mins. Lots of notes on the terminal procedures, really need to be on your game down there.

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    dalec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mghallen View Post
    IFR southeast is pretty hardcore.
    Point well taken

    The reason for the upgrade is so that I can file if I choose to with a higher degree of comfort and more options (GPS approaches). As a rule I won't file single engine IFR unless I have a VFR alternate available. Most of my flying is in Southcentral and the Interior where there is much more VFR weather. I like the flexibility of be able to file and shoot an approach to get home if I choose to. Not saying i plan to spend my time flying hard IFR from Anchorage to Juneau. If that was the case I would leave it to Alaska Airlines!

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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    You don't like the service the avionics techs give you here in south central...? You wound me sir! Instead of going outside, find one of us that will treat you better. Be cheaper and you'll have a local tech to help when something breaks.

    Web

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    aktango58's Avatar
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    There used to be a place in either Penticton or Kamloops that guys would use. Also Vancover BC. Canadian dollar is about par so that is the same...

    Would serve as a good thought to do avionics, then paint. Last thing you want is new paint getting touched for new antennas...
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  18. #18
    this would be a title NimpoCub's Avatar
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    Kamloops: Inland Communications Services
    Servicing & installing avionics since 1972.
    http://www.icsavionics.ca/ Vancouver (Pitt Meadows):

    Maxcraft Avionics Ltd.
    Inspections, maintenance, modifications, repairs & overhaul of aeronautical products.
    www.maxcraft.ca

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    The best mod most guys can do to a 180 is to take most of the panel bangles out and put them into a trash receptical. Less is more.

    Most of us that have nicely painted airplanes leave abandoned antennae in place. Adding new antennae is no problem.

  20. #20
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra bravo View Post
    The best mod most guys can do to a 180 is to take most of the panel bangles out and put them into a trash receptical. Less is more.

    Most of us that have nicely painted airplanes leave abandoned antennae in place. Adding new antennae is no problem.

    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    If I have a problem with that new dash or paint, do I want the guy that put it in 20 min by car or do I want to fly 3000 mi for him to look at the problem.
    DENNY

  22. #22
    dalec's Avatar
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    Wow this was resurrected from the dead!

    The GPS/Nav Com upgrades are being put off for a year due to the fact that I paid a local shop to replace a number of the flight instruments this summer and the choice came down to spending the balance of this years flying budget on Av Gas or a Garmin. I chose another 50 plus hours of flying this year instead. I want to complete my instrument rating in the C-180 since I had to quit that training with only about 4 hours worth of work left to do before a check ride (this was 20 years ago). As a result I want a couple of newer items in the panel. The cost of putting a instrument certified GPS in the plane is pretty high and unlike some on this forum I don't have an unlimited flying budget. I am looking for good value no the cheapest solution.

    When I am quoted nearly as much for the install as I am for the GPS/Nav Com I have to wonder. I have a center stack panel with the space and rails for the install, as a result the labor cost seems high. If somone has a suggestion on where to get this accomplished for a reasonable price I would welcome it. I was able to get a good recommendation on the paint (thanks Dave and others) and will use a local shop in Wasilla. After 52 years here I want to keep flying as much as possible and to do that I need to get good value for my hard earned aviation dollar. I have always supported the local shops up here and have never spent a dollar of my aviation budget outside of Alaska but in this case I have been tempted.

    If it offends someone on here that I am trying to get my plane updated for instrument flight as reasonably as possible, so be it.

  23. #23
    aktango58's Avatar
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    One idea is to combine a good trip, like to JC or Pierce's seminar with the work... that way your flight down gets charged to 'fun' and work, not just work.

    I had sticker shock when I checked the install price of a comm last fall. But labor and copper keeps going up.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    dalec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    One idea is to combine a good trip, like to JC or Pierce's seminar with the work... that way your flight down gets charged to 'fun' and work, not just work.
    George

    That is what prompted the initial inquiry, but it apparently upset a few people. I have managed 100 hours in the C-180 in the last 12 months, sold the Supercub 3 weeks ago. Need to get floats for the C-180 for next season. Lots of places for the aviation budget to get spent just looking for the right deals.

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    Give us a pirep after the paint's done. I'll be interested to hear how it goes.

  26. #26
    dalec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra bravo View Post
    Give us a pirep after the paint's done. I'll be interested to hear how it goes.
    SB i will do that, going to try to schedule the work for January

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    I don't think it is right to discuss individual shops price and attitude online, there are many variables that go into quoting and doing a job. These include current workload, customers attitude and pocket too and their attitude may or may not be a reflection on you? I don't know you or the shop you mentioned, but I would be choosing which upgrade you are really wanting first, then get serious in front of some shops. If you want a fun trip down to WA, and don't want to include that cost, we don't really care if thats in or out of your calculation. I just had a paint job done, and it took way longer than expected, and I had to do at least 5 trips (180 miles round trip) to keep things moving along. I'd highly recommend going local, I could not imagine this work being done on a roadtrip or to drop iust off and pick up 3 months later?

    Same with an avionics job, yet to have an upgrade that did not have to go back for some tweaking.

    As a consultant told me recently 'I like hamburgers and I like steaks, but you're not going to get hamburgers for the price of steaks'

  28. #28

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    Whoever does your work, when you get the aircraft back,look behind the instrument panel and see if the control column hits/binds on any wiring. A '74 C172 came in for annual inspection and I found a huge bundle of wires restricting control yoke travel. Now I have a '63 in the shop and the audio panel restricts travel.

  29. #29
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerodon View Post
    I just had a paint job done, and it took way longer than expected, and I had to do at least 5 trips (180 miles round trip) to keep things moving along. I'd highly recommend going local, I could not imagine this work being done on a roadtrip or to drop iust off and pick up 3 months later?
    I had a paint job done a few years ago with a very reputable and highly recommended shop. It required my periodic "drop in" to keep things going in the proper direction. In the end I was very pleased with the result. I would not have been pleased, had I not made those periodic visits.
    N1PA

  30. #30
    G44's Avatar
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    Have your airplane painted at Sky Harbour in Goderich, Ontario and you wont have to "keep on em" or keep going back for "fix it" issues. I had an airplane that was painted there and a couple of friends had theirs painted there, all very pleased. Not cheap but excellent value.

    There are some fantastic shops that offer quality work be it paint, avionics, overhauls or what ever, all one needs to do is find one which can be difficult.

    Too bad Willard is going to retire or has retired, his paint jobs were excellent.

  31. #31
    dalec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G44 View Post

    Too bad Willard is going to retire or has retired, his paint jobs were excellent.
    That is what prompted the question about paint shops

  32. #32
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalec View Post
    George

    That is what prompted the initial inquiry, but it apparently upset a few people. I have managed 100 hours in the C-180 in the last 12 months, sold the Supercub 3 weeks ago. Need to get floats for the C-180 for next season. Lots of places for the aviation budget to get spent just looking for the right deals.

    Maybe you need to get a sugar momma to pay for your flying

    Sorry to hear you had to sell the cub, but good to know you are flying more than I
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  33. #33

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    Dale,

    When Willard painted my 180 he was very particular about the primer and he only used Imron, which he mixed himself. A few years ago when a friend painted his own plane he used base coat/clear coat, which is what most cars use these days. What's your preference? Is Imron a thing of the past on airplanes?

    Decided on a scheme yet? That was a process for me. I have a book that shows every year of all 100 and 200 series Cessnas in stock paint if you'd like to borrow it.

    Scooter's -12 and my 180 having a little reunion. My paint is 13+ years old and still looks great. I hope yours turns out well.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by sierra bravo; 08-21-2013 at 10:31 AM.

  34. #34
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra bravo View Post
    ...... he used base coat/clear coat, which is what most cars use these days. What's your preference? ....
    When my plane was painted, I was given the option of a clear top coat, which I opted not to use. I later learned that the clear top coat requires an "update" every few years. Glad that I didn't do it.
    N1PA

  35. #35
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    SB, I think every one wants to borrow your book. I will stand in line for a look!

    PS. Single stage paint is the way to go on airplanes. Base coat/Clear Coat makes no sense for an airplane. There may be some who still shoot it.

    Imron has changed over the years. The various versions are responses to keeping the air clean in Southern California community zoning areas where auto-body shop activity is high. Some of the versions have steeper learning curves than others.

    As to keeping it local....I am all for that.

    PPS BreakerSwitch placards/tags.............I have broached the subject and gotten a positive response for the fabrication of individual placards to fit Potter and Brumfield/Tyco Industries breaker switches.

    My hope is to get completely away from the common engraved plastic thing glued onto the panel above a row of switches, and, more importantly, enable the changing of a switch or layout without necessitating a completely new engraved placard. Stay Tuned!

  36. #36

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    Dave,

    You're welcome to borrow the book. Just ask.

    The Zolatone in my interior is clear coated. It does make touch ups more difficult to blend but I think in my interior's case it's more durable than without. I may be wrong but that was the thinking.

    Keep us informed on the panel switch labels. I don't mind my phenolic placards but they'd be easy to change for something nicer.

  37. #37
    dalec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra bravo View Post
    Dale,

    When Willard painted my 180 he was very particular about the primer and he only used Imron, which he mixed himself. A few years ago when a friend painted his own plane he used base coat/clear coat, which is what most cars use these days. What's your preference? Is Imron a thing of the past on airplanes?

    Decided on a scheme yet? That was a process for me. I have a book that shows every year of all 100 and 200 series Cessnas in stock paint if you'd like to borrow it.

    Scooter's -12 and my 180 having a little reunion. My paint is 13+ years old and still looks great. I hope yours turns out well.

    Click image for larger version. 

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Views:	77 
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ID:	12992
    Decided on a scheme yet? Funny you should ask Stewart, I was sketching on one last night. I appreciate the offer and would like to borrow the paint scheme book to see if I can get a little more inspiration.

    I am planning on Imron paint and want a good job as it is a 25 year item that likely will outlast my flying career.


    P.S. I have may found a more cost effective installation option in Alaska for the GNS-430 which is a good thing still doing a little research.

  38. #38
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    One way to spruce up a copy of an original 2 color paint design is to add a 1/4" separation stripe between the base and trim colors. Make the stripe of a medium tone. When I did my 1976 185 over in it's original dark blue on white scheme, I added a medium blue separation stripe. Makes it look like a million bucks.
    N1PA

  39. #39
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    One way to spruce up a copy of an original 2 color paint design is to add a 1/4" separation stripe between the base and trim colors. Make the stripe of a medium tone. When I did my 1976 185 over in it's original dark blue on white scheme, I added a medium blue separation stripe. Makes it look like a million bucks.
    Yes, Good Point........a small change like that can make a huge difference. Also some colors don't look nice together unless there is a bit of separation.

    A friends recent new paint job has this issue. Nicely applied Willard job, but the scheme needed something that it doesn't have...........a bit of separation. ......in my opinion..........

  40. #40
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    A long time ago at the airport where I was working as a young A&P, we recovered a TriPacer. The owner's wife wanted it painted a dark blue and red. My boss tried, to no avail, to discourage this. She insisted, so we did. When she saw it . So we painted a 1/4" white stripe separating the red and blue. It made all the difference in the world. A simple fix to a major decision error.
    N1PA

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