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Thread: The Instructors Corner - Articles by Marcus B. Paine

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    SJ's Avatar
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    The Instructors Corner - Articles by Marcus B. Paine

    Joe Prax forwarded me these articles by Marcus Paine. Many involve discussions of stall / spin. I have not read them all, but am looking forward to doing so.

    sj
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    Mahalo!

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    39-J3's Avatar
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    Great Just Great!! I am swamped at work right now and really shouldn’t be reading these but can’t stop.

    Thanks Steve!!!!!

    Larry

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    Thank you for putting these up Steve. Some of the info is repeated, they were monthly columns ran over a couple years but the information is great. I just had a chance to fly with Marcus in Arizona. His instruction and explanation of aerodynamics was great and gave me a much larger understanding of slow flight and what happens when it gets too slow! (Or to be technical what happens and what to do when the critical angle is exceeded). It seems that stall spin accidents keep claiming lives up here where they just shouldn't. Anyway if you get a chance to fly with Marcus in his Cub or Decathlon it is well worth it. I'm sure there are other instructors on here who provide the guidance as well.
    Another plane went down in Sterling: http://www.ktuu.com/news/sterling-pl...tory?track=rss
    Not sure of the cause of course but stall spins have caused many. Perhaps some more awareness will prevent that.
    Joe

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    L18C-95's Avatar
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    Good series of short articles, in particular comments on understanding and trusting aerodynamic theory. A small proviso: stick neutral in spin recovery is not universal. Some types may require full back stick to ensure the rudder is not blanked to stop the yaw/spin: when the spin has stopped through opposite rudder, then forward movement of the control column to aid recovery. In fact early forward movement of the control column might lead to a high rotational spin in some types. In any event a low level spin (say 500' AGL) would have insufficient height for a safe recovery, emphasis on spin awareness remains the key. More formal training on incipient spins (still part of the PPL syllabus in Europe, but perhaps not enough formal time dedicated to it) may still be needed - also as part of currency requirements.

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    great read!

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    Any of them deal with Vx vs. Vy climbs?

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    Besides the fact that Mr. Paine uses a quarter of each of these mini articles repeating himself, several of his points and suggestions are contrary to documented fact and good practice. An example from one of his articles: "A spin is caused by yaw, not a stall." In fact, a spin is by definition a stall coupled with yaw. If there is no stall, there can be no spin. Yaw is in fact required for a spin to develop, but without a significant portion of both wings stalled, there will be no spin. His suggestion that deflecting an aileron somehow makes a wing "smaller" is ridiculous and hardly contributes to the understanding of the aerodynamics of a spin.

    Further, his discussion of the "Moose Stall" is so simplistic and incomplete. If it were that easy to avoid a "Moose Stall", we simply wouldn't be seeing them in the accident reports. But we are. Sorry, Mr. Paine, but it ain't quite that simple--there are a lot of aerodynamic forces at work there. And, since most of these events start quite close to the ground, recovery from one that starts below 500 feet or so--even if you are the ace of the base--just isn't going to be successful. Which is why these things are so deadly. The key is avoidance, not recovery.

    While I agree that most everyone who flies can benefit from upset training and spin training (I was the one who convinced the Fish & Wildlife Service to require this training for all its pilots), it is equally important to understand that when the FAA dropped the requirement for spin training for all pilots, the rate of stall/spin accidents dropped precipitously. Back then, we were killing a lot of people in spin training. Part of this may in fact be that much of this training was being done in airplanes that weren't certified for spins or that had unusual spin characteristics. A pertinent example: The PA-18 Super Cub is approved for spins, but only at All Up Weights of 1500 pounds or less, and at significantly forward center of gravity. Not many Super Cubs can meet those weight criteria with two persons aboard. If you choose to do some training in spins and upset recovery, seek out good quality training, from a well qualified instructor, and understand that spin training can be quite hazardous if not properly executed in a fully spin certified airplane.

    If any of you want thorough and FACTUAL information on stalls/spins, I strongly suggest that you purchase a copy of Rich Stowell's book, "Stall Spin Awareness", order here: http://www.richstowell.com/shop/book...pin-awareness/ Trust me, Rich is truly the expert on this subject, and the book is well worth the price and the time it takes to read.

    MTV

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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I too choked on the yaw causes spin without addressing stall statement.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

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    Echoing MTV's recommendation for Rich Stowell's books. Even better if you can fly with him. He's a great instructor.

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    Might we be a tad casuistical? MTV is absolutely correct that in a spin both wings are stalled, in fact don't aerobatic competition judges require a clean stall break on both wings before entering the spin.

    However, I suggest we might be a bit more generous to Mr Paine, as the dreaded moose stall, or low level skidding departure, is more likely to be an unintentional flick roll: where the retreating wing is stalled (possibly tip to root and leading to trailing edge given that the skid has resulted in the wing being presented to relative airflow as a swept wing), and the advancing wing is not stalled. Trying to raise the nose and reduce the bank (the skid is causing the nose to yaw down) with elevator and opposite aileron, only reduces the critical AoA on the retreating wing, and adds some acceleration to the scenario. So technically incorrect application of yaw is causing the departure, but into a flick roll (one wing is not stalled in a flick roll), not a classic spin.

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