Oratex Fabric

Mauleguy said:

I think that the guy upthread needs to pay a professional to build, or at least cover, his next "$100,000.00" cub especially if he was not able to learn how to install the product after doing the first one.

That being said, at least Greg gets to have his say and we must respect him for covering a whole aircraft and sharing his feelings about the process. Unfortunately feelings convay little more then... Feelings and don't help with the mechanical process that sharing concreat information provides.

I am pretty sure I have shared information along the way about my problems/concerns. I am not going for a show plane either. I have come back after each flight looking for places that need hit with the iron. After flying the airplane for 20 hours now I have still had to iron down areas on the leading edge 4" tape (never have to do this with traditional coverings). I think I have plugged the iron in at least a half a dozen times. There is also an area that seems to be slipping, moving, changing around where the boot cowl meets the fabric. It is the seam tape that I used for a finished look that does not look right, kind of bunched up. I have ironed it down a few times now but it keeps reappearing. Again something I have never had a problem with traditional fabric.

You can blame it on me and my process if you like but I have also been very critical of doing a good job of covering. If anyone wants to look at my airplane and be critical of the job I welcome you to come and take a look. It looks good, as good as Oratex can in my opinion. It is not the looks that bother me it is the function.

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Well, I can't help but respond again...
There are many other customers that used the same production batch that Greg used, they used the same color and all, and they have nothing coming loose and they have not lost any tapes. And they have not had to Iron the plane after flying it again. But I am the first to admit that these old tapes were "finicky", so to speak. We did have complains about them and we did develop better tapes.
I also have to say that Greg was unfortunately one of the last customers to take a delivery of the older Factory-issue Finishing tapes; Now we have tapes that have a different glue and also more glue per square inch on them. This way they are easier and faster to use. When we were able to bring these new tapes to market Greg was almost completely finished with the old tapes on the plane. We did offer the new tapes, albeit too late to help in this case.
These new tapes have been very well received by our customers, I am sorry that the timing did not work out to get them to Greg. We had talked about this at length.
Nevertheless, many customers used the old tapes and had no problems, among them Larry Vetterman for example. Many on this Forum know him and have seen his Javron Cub in New Holstein last summer and in other places. The Breedens great Glacier Cub uses Oratex and it used the Old Tapes as well. Nobody on this Forum talks about the Oratex usage on those planes where it worked well and the owners seem to like it as far as I can tell...
Our TV-station interview with the Oratex-Blue6000 Carbon Cub Kitplane-in-the-living-room builder in Anchorage (on my channel) shows a plane with the new tapes...

I guess this will be tit for tat. This is one of the conversations I had with Lars when I was having issues with the tapes. I am on the phone with Lars "no one else is having any problems", he suggest I talk to Frank Knapp because he loves the product and maybe he can help. I am always willing to learn from someone that has been down the road so I call Frank. Within about 10 minutes into our conversation Franks wife asks me how I am applying the tapes. I say with an iron directly to the fabric. She asks me if I am putting hot melt glue down first. I say no, I was not told that needed to be done, in fact that is the advantage of having pre glued tapes based on what Lars has told me. She says that they put a coating of hot melt glue down before doing all the tapes. She says in the early days they had problems with the tapes and found that worked and have always done it that way.

Unfortunately I am done with tapes when I am actually at this point (frustrated with misinformation along the way). It really does not do me any good except to confirm that even his experts are not doing what he says works.... I have leaned since of a few other people that have also used the hot melt glue as insurance when doing the tapes. Maybe the new tapes are better, I did not get a chance to try them. Lars said he would send me a roll with the new glue to try but I never got it.

As for the Breeden Cub I talk with Dan the guy that built it and found out from him that he also had problems with the tapes. He used compressed air to try and lift the edges then he iron the ones that came up. I ended up using his idea and it help find problems that I spent many more hours going over with a higher heat setting then what I was told I needed. The Breedens cub is also painted and that would seal the exposed edges that are in the wind to lifting (just a guess).

I have never talked to Larry Vetterman about his experience, I would be interested to know if he put hot melt glue down before putting the tapes on.

There really is no manuel for doing Oratex, it would be great if there was a hard copy of simple instructions that will work for everyone. Oratex for Dummies.

Greg

Mauleguy said:

There really is no manuel for doing Oratex, it would be great if there was a hard copy of simple instructions that will work for everyone. Oratex for Dummies.

Greg

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Gee, Now that is enough; There is an Oratex Manual and there always was an Oratex manual ! Over 100 pages! and I did email it out and I called if it was received and actually read. Also there is a long editorial that goes beyond the scope of the manual.
And Anybody who wanted a Hardcopy of it got a Hardcopy of it.
Proof of that can even be found on the RANS-clan forum, where even my back then-existing editorial got posted by Mike Ice...
These accusations are getting ridiculous.
Greg, I told you that many customers put a line of glue down before putting the tapes on; and I said putting a narrow line down is mandatory. Also said some put the glue almost as wide as the tapes and that I think that is best, but work. I also said to you that some did not follow instructions and that they put the tapes down with no glue at all whatsoever; I told you that I don't like that and I would not do it that way (Breedens Plane was done that way, and yes I told Dan to try the airgun to make sure)! Nevertheless for example the Bearhawk LSA was done the same way with no glue under the tapes and the silver 6000 that you used and it has not lost a tape in way over hundred flight hours, flying from Austin Texas to Oshkosh Twice and all over the place to Airshows with nothing lost. And at every airshow people walk up to it and try to peel the pink edge tape !

I guess conflicts like this really get enjoyed by some here on Supercub.org ? Like Mike MCS repair and I are adversarial since late summer 2008, and we are both based at BCV airport, just in case someone wonders about that little bit...

I will respond as my name is mentioned a couple of times in the previous posts. Yes I used masking tape and brushed a layer of hot melt glue before applying the tapes. I started on the tail feathers and didn't realize to lay out the masking tape about an eight inch narrower than the tape. I found out that the hot melt glue turns yellow after time passes. To fix my new guy to Oratex ineptness I took a small artist brush and applied some paint i.e. the Same color as I used on the metal parts. It worked well and covered up my mistake. On another note I did have a few areas where the pinked edges lifted up so rather than trying to reheat them I glued them down with super glue from a local hobby shop. I used two sewing needles, one to lift up the pinked edge and the other to place a very small drop of super glue on the tape then press it down for a short time. This method worked well and I can't find any more tape edges coming up. I hope this helps.
One thing to mention is from the onset, my concern was the looks of the finished product. With other fabric techniques you can cover up a lot of mistakes with dope. With Oratex, what you see is the finished product, so once the learning curve is conquered it becomes a very easy process. No chemicals or health hazards to worry about. Yep, I enjoyed using it and it still looks good. Larry V.

Happy Thanksgiving

Greg

Greg,
I am sorry that it did not meet your expectations and that you had the "finicky" tapes to deal with. I wish the timing would have been such that you would have gotten the new ones. We could still send you some of them to fix the trouble ones on the wing?
Paul and I may have simply forgotten to order the new tape to try out after we had last talked, we are kinda overworked at times & stuff happens. I be still glad to send it if you want to try it... (yeah, I know its kinda late...)
Happy Thanksgiving!
Lars

So is there anyone out there who has covered a plane using the "new" Oratex tapes? I'm still on the fence as to cover with Oratex or Stewarts System.

Seems like the Oratex system is old enough to have had something as basic as "enough glue on the tapes" figured out by now. I can see why Greg is upset with all the work that goes into covering a plane just to be told that the product he was sold is defective and has since been replaced with "version 2" which "cured" all the problems. Not at the cost of this system!!!

I'd be mad too.

Take care,

Crash

Crash said:

So is there anyone out there who has covered a plane using the "new" Oratex tapes? I'm still on the fence as to cover with Oratex or Stewarts System.

Crash

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Crash, feel free to contact me and I can give you phonenumbers of customers (old tape and new, some used both!) to talk to ... I will not trow their numbers on this website and they do not want to pay here just to throw their opinion in here...
Regards,
Lars

Crash..

First, we don't get paid, we are only a user and like the product.

We were one of the first customers and used the version_1 tapes. We flew the
plane over 475 hours (mostly in Alaska) and spent the winter in Arizona sun shine while the plane was outside.

The first time we followed the provided instructions and added glue full width of the tapes, it worked well.
After loosing our plane in a fire we rebuilt again. This time we received the 'new' tapes and although it wasn't required we placed a little additional glue down the center and worked it toward the edge with the iron. We now have 150 plus hours on this build and no issues.

We have heard the talk about cost.. however we are all willing to pay big bucks for the next gadget that saves a couple pounds..
Oratex on the other hand saves 25-30# by most peoples observations.. it simply pays for itself in weight savings.

It has many benefits, brain dead simple to patch (almost as easy as duct tape), light, unbelievably strong and no harmful fumes!
After many years painting in a booth it allows the feeling of doing a project without the physical dangers.

I personally like how the wing with no pony ribs or padding has minimal scallop. (picture taken tonight)

Just one guys opinion..




Always willing to discuss if we can help, send a PM.

frank

Little_Cub said:

...(picture taken tonight)

frank

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that poor color match between the tapes and fabric is/has been, the main deal killer for me to even consider using the stuff....

That particular color and looks to me is the light look, i love it. When i see cubs where the tapes arent noticeable, mainly mine that means too much paint and heavy. Each to there own i guess. Wish i did pictures on here.

This really sucks! After I shut down to take a walk I looked back at my airplane I see something not looking right. Another tape had really come loose this time, not just a little. I have been inspecting the airplane before every flight for lifting and did not see anything showing. On 35" tires you have to find something tall enough to put your wing over to reach the top of the wing or maybe with Oratex you have to carry a 6 foot ladder in your tool kit. My buddy Daryl who has been flying with me now for a while had this clear tape that he gets from Walmart that he swears is probably as strong as Oratex and sticks a hell of a lot better "his words".

Mauleguy said:

This really sucks! After I shut down to take a walk I looked back at my airplane I see something not looking right. Another tape had really come loose this time, not just a little. I have been inspecting the airplane before every flight for lifting and did not see anything showing. On 35" tires you have to find something tall enough to put your wing over to reach the top of the wing or maybe with Oratex you have to carry a 6 foot ladder in your tool kit. My buddy Daryl who has been flying with me now for a while had this clear tape that he gets from Walmart that he swears is probably as strong as Oratex and sticks a hell of a lot better "his words".

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built in 'in flight' wing spoiler..... ;-)

Now that's just getting dangerous!! No Oratex for me.

Mauleguy said:

This really sucks! After I shut down to take a walk I looked back at my airplane I see something not looking right. Another tape had really come loose this time, not just a little. I have been inspecting the airplane before every flight for lifting and did not see anything showing. On 35" tires you have to find something tall enough to put your wing over to reach the top of the wing or maybe with Oratex you have to carry a 6 foot ladder in your tool kit. My buddy Daryl who has been flying with me now for a while had this clear tape that he gets from Walmart that he swears is probably as strong as Oratex and sticks a hell of a lot better "his words".

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Hi,
Gee that is really the absolute worst I have ever seen. This is a tape that has been put on by that Lady that worked on your wings Greg? that is not what you did yourself? Anyway, let me ship you new replacement tapes of the new Garden Variety (free of course) ...
Meanwhile I do have to say that the same tape color and production charge was used by others, such as Mark Goldbergs Bearhawk LSA (twice to Oshkosh, way over 100 flighthours) and Ray Rothlys Pietenpol and Alan Ronk's SuperStol, and nothing came loose on their end. Seriously.
Greg, those tapes that you put on all by yourself, did they stay on?
Please advise,
Best Regards & Merry Christmas!
Lars

Hi again,
What I do not understand is that there is no residue no damage no nothing to be seen where the tape was. See here in this picture, these are forcefully pipped off tapes from two different production runs and they do destroy everything underneath IF THEY COME OFF.

Lars Gleitsmann said:

Hi again,
What I do not understand is that there is no residue no damage no nothing to be seen where the tape was. ..

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you sold/shipped it to him....

please explain why did it not work right

when I buy something, I expect it to work properly ALWAYS and easily ...

I will stick to my dope and fabric.... which has ALWAYS worked as expected....

If it doesn't cause a health hazard, don't use it to cover your airplane. Dress up like a bio hazard ranger if you have to and cover your bird.

The answer is yes they were installed by another not myself, she has more experience then me and was trained by another who had a lot of time with Oratex on the Double Ender aircraft. I would not blame this on her, I have had a few of my own come loose on the fuselage. The wing is right in the wind and the worst possible place for this to happen. The problem as I see it is, when they are glued down with heat there is no way to be absolutely certain that they are 100% good (full contact and glue heat activated). I have not had an edge come up in the last 6-7 hours of flying and I have also been including a look for loose edges in all pre-flights especially on the wings. Because of the low speed envelope I am always flying in I don't want something like this to cause a wing to stall.

I will give your new and improved tape a try if you send it. This one has to be replaced at least the last section of it because it was so frayed.

If you looked at the tape in person on the wings (4" wide) you can see it has had more heat applied then I was doing to my own seams on the fuselage and tail feathers in order to get them to stick over metal leading edge. The tapes have started to shrink a small amount because of the heat and all of them look good to me. How does a person inspect for this problem?

mike mcs repair said:

you sold/shipped it to him....

please explain why did it not work right

when I buy something, I expect it to work properly ALWAYS and easily ...

I will stick to my dope and fabric.... which has ALWAYS worked as expected....

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Well, glad that you bring it up Mike!
First lets look at it:
1) The tape came loose at the leading edge of itself (Agreed?) 2) But it did stay on at the trailing edge, despite blowing in the wind and flopping around and all that (Right?) 3) The point where it came loose is a linear feature, goes along wingspan-wise very evenly over the wingspan (Correct?)
4) it did not leave any residue behind (or at least not much) where it came off.
5) also it did not rip the topcoating out of the Oratex surface at all.
So we can see it where it held and where it came off. - So what may be the difference?, - why did it come off up front but did NOT come off ALL THE WAY ???
THIS question leads to a further observation: The Area where the tape came loose is on top of the D-Shape sheetmetal Leading edge material, close to or at its aft edge ?! (Right or what ?) It sure looks that way in the photos....!!!
So as we know and as is said in the instructions (and emphasized over the phone! - if somebody asks for advise etc) Metal under the fabric is a heatsink and thus the Tapes need to be ironed longer or slower and or with higher Temperatures in order to overwhelm/saturate that said heatsink... and yes Aluminum is a big heatsink.
So My Conclusion, as provided by the photos shown is:
The tape ironing temperature and Ironing Speed must have been sufficient to trigger the Tape glue on the area where the aluminum sheet metal was not present, but the temperature / BTU input /time exposure was insufficient to trigger the glue fully where it was on top of the sheetmetal of the D-shape-leading edge.
Its possible to "tack the tapes on" quickly and then heat them up right after "they pass muster", to make them stay on there for good. This desirable feature is what happened here accidentally it looks like. Enough BTU to "tack them on" but not enough to trigger the glue.
In short:
"Not hot enough" or "not hot enough long enough" either one or the other.
THIS conclusion is proven by the aft part of the tape staying in place even though the front part came off and was curled back and tugging at the rest of the tape in full length and all that. - Looks to me like that aft part of the tape held "the test" and proves the fact that it was not the tape itself as such.

Mauleguy said:

The answer is yes they were installed by another not myself, she has more experience then me and was trained by another who had a lot of time with Oratex on the Double Ender aircraft. I would not blame this on her, I have had a few of my own come loose on the fuselage. The wing is right in the wind and the worst possible place for this to happen. The problem as I see it is, when they are glued down with heat there is no way to be absolutely certain that they are 100% good (full contact and glue heat activated). I have not had an edge come up in the last 6-7 hours of flying and I have also been including a look for loose edges in all pre-flights especially on the wings. Because of the low speed envelope I am always flying in I don't want something like this to cause a wing to stall.
I will give your new and improved tape a try if you send it. This one has to be replaced at least the last section of it because it was so frayed.
If you looked at the tape in person on the wings (4" wide) you can see it has had more heat applied then I was doing to my own seams on the fuselage and tail feathers in order to get them to stick over metal leading edge. The tapes have started to shrink a small amount because of the heat and all of them look good to me. How does a person inspect for this problem?

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Hi Greg,
As said I be glad to send you the new tapes with the different and thicker glue. I wish we would have talked about this after those new tapes became available in your color. Right now the factory is shut down for quite some days because of the German-mandatory Christmas holidays, so as soon as they get back to work in the second week of the new year I be glad to send you new tapes as a replacement. One of the tricks of the inspection after tape install is blowing compressed air at the tape edges (please not with a compressor throwing oil!) to test the tapes. Another way is the water test with the high-pressure washer. If the tapes are done right they will not come off with the usual pressure washer (dunno pressures, have to check). So many customers have reported Pressure washer use with no problems.
Some customers have put the tapes on with a clock with a seconds Hand in easy view and counted/looked at the seconds before they moved the Iron forward on the tape. That seems to be a bullet-proof way of doing it.
The Legacy systems with the paint and glue and all have it easy as the correct glue procedure will result in "instant optical gratification" of the completely saturated tapes... That sure as hell does not exist with us but in order to have a paint-free and toxin-free system, some stuff has to be left behind.
As Oratex is RADICALLY different, following the instructions to the letter is crucial. I feel like some folks with a lot of Ceconite experience seem to "gloss over" when reading our lengthy instructions, and feel like wasting their time...like when I call them to "see how it is going with Oratex?" ... and then problems arise that we usually do not see with the fabric beginners. Naturally we also have a lot of highly experienced Ceconite folk do very good superb Oratex-jobs, no doubt about that. - But I think our first USA-customer winning the first price in EAA Oshkosh 2012 for the best scratchbuild homebuild DESPITE having never used any fabric etc proves Oratex is a good system, just as all the flying Oratex-planes prove. As far as we know, no Oratex-plane has crashed yet. Nobody building an Oratex-boat (framed Kayak, Baidarka) drowned yet. Regarding metal versus Wooden Airplanes, I am certain that it does take longer to cover a metal bird than a wooden one due to the heat-sink-effect.
Glad that you want to try the improved tapes, appreciated!
Merry Christmas!
Regards,
Lars

Lars Gleitsmann said:

One of the tricks of the inspection after tape install is blowing compressed air at the tape edges (pleas

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no tricks...

Dope, Stitts, Stewarts... and the rest.. the tapes stick down always after you follow the instructions..

WHAT WENT WRONG HERE???

HIM or YOUR product???

he spent tons of $$$$ on your product...

I will stick with what ALWAYS WILL WORK...

mike mcs repair said:

no tricks...

Dope, Stitts, Stewarts... and the rest.. the tapes stick down always after you follow the instructions..

WHAT WENT WRONG HERE???

HIM or YOUR product???

he spent tons of $$$$ on your product...

I will stick with what ALWAYS WILL WORK...

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Well, Mike mcs repair, You have obviously not read my post directly answering that question on the previous post/page ! Please read that detailed explanation !
But I sure understand were you are coming from, thinking back to our dispute in 2008. My explanation is correct and detailed, yet you are eager to "Stir the pot".
This last post of yours is really crossing the line, in my opinion.

Boy.. it looks like a "Tag Team" keepin this stirred up.

It's pretty easy for anyone to fail at nearly anything.. mcs touched on
the possible problem when he said "the tapes stick down always after you follow the instructions.."..
it doesn't take much observation to see that those tapes had no glue. The instructions we were given with version_1 tapes said to
place a light layer of glue, let it dry, then slowly iron the tape at 130 C.

To be clear we are talking about the very first tapes and associated process.. any issue with tapes and
sufficient glue seems to be addressed with the new tapes.

I for one am damn happy to see a safe alternate covering process. My wife
did our entire cover job and she received many compliments from seasoned fabric pros while at Oshkosh.
If a grandmother with no previous experience can produce a quality product.. anyone can.

It works well if the instructions are followed.. really that simple.

Mike, if you have a real light fabric that you can see the shadows of the ribs through when the light is just right, don't you think 2 layers would appear a little darker.
Dah

I appreciate Greg's reports. Thanks for the honesty.

It isn't like Polyfiber or the other more conventional systems have a 100% approval rating. I wouldn't expect Oratex to, either. I understand Lars' position, too. And MCS Mike's, since he's a professional and not a hobby builder.

tELL ME WHAT THE DIFFERENCE IS BETWEEN A PROFESSIONAL AND A HOBBY BUILDER, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW?

Ive seen hobby builders put out 3 times the quality of professional builders many many times, ever been to oshkosh???? Only difference i can come up with is one charges and the other dosent. ONLY DIFFERENCE!!!

Just to be clear I did use compressed air on all the tapes for inspection. Even the wings which I did not cover myself after talking to Dan Default who came up with this test.

Just to be clear these were the new improved tapes over what Frank Knapp used and did not require additional glue being laid down. I did use the required additional glue over the ribs with tape and stitching on the tail feathers, vertical fin and rudder and wherever there was a seam or wrap around to a seam.

I know you say there was not a problem with the tapes I used (generation 2?) because of so many others being successful. I guess I am confused about there being no problem but a new tape with more glue (generation 3) is being made today just because I had a problem. Just me having a problem does not seem like Oratex would add even more glue to the tape.

I will agree that the tape did not stick properly and that it goes back to the installation of the tape for whatever reason. Not enough glue on the tape, The heat sink of the metal, Not spending enough time to get the heat to sink in, etc.... I will go over the airplane wings again with compressed air and see if I can find a new set of potential problems.

My problem is this may become a safety issue. I was only in the air for 1.2 hours, what if I was in the air for 4-6 hours on a trip in Alaska where there is only tundra and nothing to stand on. Now I have stopped to dump fuel in and I find another 4-6 foot section has come loose but instead of being able to find a pile of sand to stand on to fix it I have nothing but flat tundra.

I would be a lover not a hater of this product if it worked. I do not dislike the looks or the utility of how easy it can be repaired with little visual evidence. What I don't like is something that requires fussing with after the job is suppose to be done. I for one wished I had my money and time back. I wished I had stayed with chemicals.
My hope now is to figure out how to fix the problems and fly the airplane without worry. To not be addressing something else after a flight.

I also have a fuel stain that I can't figure out how to get rid of, any help on that one.

tempdoug said:

tELL ME WHAT THE DIFFERENCE IS BETWEEN A PROFESSIONAL AND A HOBBY BUILDER, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW?

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Well as a 20yr business owner with 140 employees & as a hobbyist with friends in the shop, this is my take on the differences:

A "professional" has a resposibilty to his clients to diagnose, estimate & implement known repair methods with known outcomes. Typically within designated timelines & budgets.

A "hobbyist" can afford to be creative, take as long as he wants & spend as much as he wants & risk unknown outcomes.

Oh ya......& a hobbyist can do it all in shorts while drinking beer!!!......Professional can't......;-((