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Oratex Fabric

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ChrisM said:
... 1) What's necessary to remove and recover a plane with Oratex?
2) removing the old glue and fabric from wood or aluminum.
3) Has anybody had to take this stuff off an entire aircraft? 4) Does one heat and peel up the old fabric? 5)Also, the surface prep to ensure adhesion sounds pretty important.
6) Following removal and preparing for reapplication - what procedures are needed ? 7) Is complete removal of all residue needed?
ChrisM
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Hi ChrisM, All good questions, lets answer them in order, even though Its just as Frank said, but I guess I should answer it point by point: 1) Heatgun and hot iron 2) The old glue will melt just before the fabric melts, so you just keep heating and peeling it off. 3) we know one where they took it off the wings and put it back on later, new glue and new Oratex. 4) yes exactly. 5) yes it is as the glue has no solvent and no toxins that etch or eat into it, the stuff needs to be clean, but just as one would do anyway I dare say! 6) New glue has to be applied to both the structure and the underside of the fabirc. 7) Absolutely Not, as the residue will prove that the glue was applied Right the First Time and is still on there good, it makes a good base to apply the new glue onto.
We have a brand new Website now and it has a large Manual section as well, please have a look. Regards from Anchorage!
 
Hi Nanook and Dplunkt, well its going... Yes it is indeed certified in ol' Germany and Europe, but .... in a letter from the FAA they did say that their response time will now be 6 weeks instead of 3 weeks etc and so on...meanwhile the phone rings all day long with experimental builders...
 
Hello Lars, Looking more for specifics on what the hang up is with the FAA certification process. Also when does it look like this will get resolved?
 
Oratex on Legend Cub:
DSC3699.jpg


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DSC3614.jpg
 
Darin told me he saved 8 lbs on that airplane over their normal Stargloss, Ranthane system. Almost $11K. They came within three pounds with a light Polyton finish on another one.
 
Steve,

Are you saying the Stargloss & Ranthane was $11,000, or was the Oratex system with cover & finish $11,000?

I looked closely at that airplane, and it was well covered and finished. However, the tapes, for my preference, are too prominent and well defined.
 
I am all up for new ideas - I am impressed with Stewarts glue and Ekofill. If this stuff is only 11lbs lighter than a gloss coat Dacron job, we need to know its advantages. Cost? durability? It appears that appearance may not be its strong suit.
 
Well considering they are not getting the process approved by the FAA, who cares? Since it is approved in Germany, why in the hell can't they get it approved here? Someone in this company needs to step up and start talking about why this is not happening...
 
So, basically Oratex is double the cost of a Polyfiber/ Ranthane cover. Legend says Polyfiber was 3 pounds heavier. I guess what you're saving on labor is spent on paying for the stuff. Pretty expensive 3 lbs. My opinion
 
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Darin at Legend said it took them longer to cover a Legend Cub with Ortex than it does Polyfiber. The Ortex was 8 lbs. lighter than the same airplane covered in Polyfiber Stargloss with Ranthane top coat. Another done in Polyfiber and top coated in Polytone with clear on the leading edges was 3 lbs. heavier than the Ortex. I don't think my previous post was very clear. As with anything there is a learning curve as well but I think it does take some muscle to stretch the Ortex around a curve. I am sure Lars will answer here, I saw him at Oshkosh several times and it looked like they were pretty busy.
 
How can you charge that much for a process that isn't approved for certified aircraft?
 
It looks like a very nice and good product. Received a sample but went in an other direction. The price was the only reason.
I'm sure they would sell at least three times more fabric if they soldl it less than half price.... I would have done my project with it.
 
How come the american fabric companys dont get on the bandwagon to color fabric so the home builders dont have to look for paint guns and paint booths? Fish eyes, runs are non existant, etc. Great for a guy that only covers something once or twice in a lifetime.
 
HI Everyone, I talked with Larry Vetterman last evening and he is getting ready to cover the wings on his javron cub. He cut 2 pieces of fabric 200" long for the top and bottom pieces of the wing. He will still need to cut some off for the wingtip bows and also some lengthwise as he won't need that much over lap. This should account for most if not all of the tapes. Glue weight is unknown and somewhat subjective. Total weight of these 2 pieces is 6.25 lbs, as weighed on a postage scale.
I would also like to mention that he has about 40-45 hours TOTAL TIME in completely covering the fuselage and tailfeathers.
 
Steve Pierce said:
Darin told me he saved 8 lbs on that airplane over their normal Stargloss, Ranthane system. Almost $11K. They came within three pounds with a light Polyton finish on another one.
Click to expand...

Hi,
I guess its overtime for me to say something here... Somehow that story from the Weight saving from Darin Hart is very different from what other customers of mine are telling me! The typical word I get from them is like : Jon Svendson (MudLake, AK): "I have completed a scientific test of the weight of your Oracover vs. finished Polyfiber (lightest legal fabric). Your stuff weighs 150 g/square metre, and Polyfiber 365 g."


The weight savings are for sure, but how much weight is saved depends on what you compare it with: The weight of our materials is certain, its half an ounce for the 6000 per square foot! See it on our website ! The competing legacy fabrics have a vast Garden Variety of weight as they get manually spray-painted and thus the weight depends totally on the builder/painter. Even our strongest Oratex is much lighter than the lightest Ceconite. There are some out there that make a good living painting and covering airplanes, they see us as endangering that industry and thus have nothing good to say about us. If one compares the lightest thinnest Ceconite with the least amount of paint possible (thus sacrificing most of their Metal-powder UV-Proving!) with our 6000, then the weight savings are of course smaller than comparing the 6000 to the strongest Ceconite with the real STC-compliant amount of paint applied (which is a reasonable comparison!). Our 6000 is stronger than the heaviest Ceconite, for Ultralights we have the Oratex600. If you get to hold any Oratex in your hand You will see, the weight difference is huge!
Seriously, cut of a square foot piece of used Ceconite next chance you have to do that, and WEIGHT THAT.
So far I can say all our Private Customers are very happy, and we had many (also commercial) who bought not only once....
Regards,
Lars
 
Lars Gleitsmann said:
...There are some out there that make a good living painting and covering airplanes, they see us as endangering that industry and thus have nothing good to say about us. ....
Lars
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no, the finish quality(tape mismatch ugliness) is not good enough for me to put my reputation on turning out of my shop.... you get that figured out and then you "might" get my consideration...

WHY? would someone pay MORE to have a poorer looking finished product????? crazy! unless you are selling the stuff!!
 
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Lars, why not answer the never-ending question about when the FAA is going to certify Oratex? You are losing a huge segment of the market until you finish certification...What is the hold-up?
 
mike mcs repair said:
no, the finish quality(tape mismatch ugliness) is not good enough for me to put my reputation on turning out of my shop.... you get that figured out and then you "might" get my consideration...

WHY? would someone pay MORE to have a poorer looking finished product????? crazy! unless you are selling the stuff!!
Click to expand...

Why.. let me count the reasons..

1- It looks better than most (opinion)
2- Its half the weight (fact)
3- Easier (because my wife did ours).
4- At least as strong
5- The smell and shop cleanup from over spray is eliminated!
6- Continue using that ol' mask and we'll talk about the rest of the reasons in 20 years.
7- This is the important one.. if you can find something to replace with lighter technology
for instance leading edge or firewall.. it costs $500 to $1000 to save a pound.. you simply
save the cost of the fabric in weight savings!

Mike.. you may be basing 'finished product' on an early (poorly lighted) picture of gack-green fabric.
From what I have seen the newer stuff all looks pretty good.. it doesn't shine like a new Dodge
but it doesn't weigh like one either. (opinion)

1.png
The tapes match as well as anything else.

Because Kris was willing to work with the fabric she got interested in flying and
Soloed a couple months ago.. I blame that on Oratex.. now I gotta pay for double gas!
 

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nanook said:
Lars, why not answer the never-ending question about when the FAA is going to certify Oratex? You are losing a huge segment of the market until you finish certification...What is the hold-up?
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Well Nanook,
How can I answer a question that I do not know the answer for? It has been Years now that we are trying to get the STC's and we have been ... lets say waiting.... THere was a guy with the FAA who would always say No but would not say why, and he did sign our PSCP but he would not sign a Testing plan (defeats the purpose doesn't it?) and he would not tell us what ASTM-testing he wanted. But on March 1st he got to send us a email that he is no longer our point of contact with the FAA ! And we liked it as it wasn't pretty... He is now working in a natural Gas plant. Now we have an experienced guy with the FAA that knows his **** and he say why and all... So now there is hope. Still goes very slow...What do you expect. NANOOK, do you know how long Ray Stitts needed to get his STC ? Or how long it took the Stewarts Brothers? Don't you think I am very aware about the Market Segment lost? Meanwhile the EASA and LBA etc STC' list is getting longer and longer, we are legal to cover Cubs in Europe...
Many of my dear customers say its protectionism...
 
Well Lars thanks for the update on the current frustration level....so you wasted a bunch of time on an incompetent FAA employee....and this comes as a surprise? You have approval data from Europe, plenty of aircraft flying currently...go kick some FAA ass and get it done...
 
I agree with nanook Lars. You are not pushing the correct buttons. It is time to go upstairs. One single individual should not be able to stonewall you. Do you have a DER who can help you through the maze of regulations and procedure? I have not looked at the regulations for certifying a fabric process. Once you are able to prove that you do comply with all that the FAA has published on the matter, you should be home free. The European approvals should carry a lot of weight. The FAA has a branch in Europe. Have your people go to them.
 
this;
attachment.php
or this;
P1020517.jpg
And by NO MEANS am i saying theres anything wrong with either, just glad theres always more choices.
 
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