Oratex Fabric

Steve Pierce said:

Really? Maybe I am reading something into your post. I have looked at Oratex both painted and factory color and I didn't care for it either. I didn't care for the way I was treated when I started asking questions about it at New Holstein a few years ago either. Also didn't like being told I was biased because I was afraid it would take work away from me. I think it is a good product for some people just like dope, Stits and Stewarts. I use the system I use because I have it down and can produce a known result in a known amount of time with a known life expectancy. Yes I charge for what I do. That is how I make a living. I also help a lot of people who want to do it themselves. I have no issue with people wanting to do it themselves or to help. I have more work than I can do and don't feel threatened by others either doing their own work or helping me work on their airplane. Maybe I read your post wrong and I am just in a bad mood because my oil vendor jacked my cost up by 25% without telling me or the fact that I have been jacked around by JPI all week, treated like I am an idiot and wasted many hours trying to solve a simple issue and now I am screwed till they come back to work on Jan. 4th. Oh well, off to grill a fresh steak my daughter brought home.

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Pierce, i truly believe your hearts in what you do, Ive never seen you bash anyone to come up with an answer for a problem.

stewartb said:

I appreciate Greg's reports. Thanks for the honesty.

It isn't like Polyfiber or the other more conventional systems have a 100% approval rating. I wouldn't expect Oratex to, either. I understand Lars' position, too. And MCS Mike's, since he's a professional and not a hobby builder.

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Eddie, read this.

Okay, I guess I have to weigh in here a bit.

Eddie- Thank you for the kind words but actually I did not get to FWS. Was based at Nellis, flew with them a lot, went to all the academics, but did not formally attend. I have great respect for you, and those who did. It is, as you say, the PHD in fighters. Being a patch wearer was, and I'm sure still is, quite an honor. No Yahoos there. Congratulations to you. Well done.

Yes I did experiment with mixing two systems. That does carry risk. I was just talking to DW about this and I told him I would do it again. But you can only mix systems if you are experimental. You can NOT do that with a certified build. But lets talk about why this may have gotten a little testy.

The fabric and paint job on a Cub represents a HUGE amount of time, labor and money. It is also extremely high profile. That is what everyone sees and that is a large part of how they rate your craftsmanship. If you make a mistake and make a mess of the instrument panel, it does not cost much in dollars or time to get, and cut another one. Mess up the fabric on a wing and you can be looking at up to 100 hours of labor and an easy 1000 bucks in material. Get the whole job done and don't like it, or it does not last, or develops paint bubbles, blisters, etc and now (for an amateur) you may be looking at 6 months and 5 grand.(up to 9K for Oratex) THAT IS AN EXPENSIVE FAILURE. Not just in dollars but also TIME. So there is a great deal of stress with the covering and paint.

Now I'm going to ruffle some feathers. I don't know if I have ever heard of a Stitts disaster. IE the paint bubbled, or curdled, etc. Follow the directions and you are just about guaranteed a great cover job that will last 30 years. Has lots of nasty chemicals but IT WORKS. The chances of you having to redo huge chunks at great cost of both time and money is VERY low.
Stewarts - Lots of full blown "failures." Paint adhesion issues, blistering, color match etc. Many "failures" did not show up until a few months after completion so resulted in full recover jobs. That is MASSIVELY discouraging and expensive in time and money. For an amateur that airplane could easily be out of service for a year. Stewarts has gotten better and massive failures are getting less frequent but it still represents a risk to the builder.
AirTec - The system rarely "fails" but it is easy to get it on thick such that the finish develops cracking, ringworm, and perhaps some adhesion issues. If you put it on thin you run the risk of pin holes (see my thread) but it seems to be pretty good other than that.
Oratex - Still relatively new, thus still having issues. From my perspective, there are three issues. 1) Tapes - as discussed in this thread, 2) Overall appearance - if you decide you do not care for it when you are done - you have to recover the whole airplane, 3) And finally cost. I have no doubt a great deal of Greg's stress stems from the feeling of looking at the possibility of a complete re-cover job. That would stress anyone out.

The covering process is a HUGE investment in time and money. How much are you willing to gamble on a "failure".
Every system can point out their success stories and every system has won awards at Oshkosh. But how often do you hear of a failure? Is it just a small problem, that you can live with, or is it a full blown disaster? We all want to think we are smarter than everyone else thus the disaster would never happen to us, but I can assure you some of the total disasters with Stewarts, during their teething period, were folks that were outstanding craftsmen.
There is nothing during a build that has the same consequence as fabric issues.

I am not recommending one system over any other, just know your risk and reward, when you make your system choice.

Bill

Sorry Bill. I have every confidence you would have aced FWS.

Anal Retentive is not hyphenated.

Doug, My comment was concise and articulated what I meant to say. Lars is a product representative and Mike is a paid service provider. A homebuilder is neither and has a different set of concerns. I suspect the majority of readers here took the comment at face value and not as a characterization of anyone's skills or abilities. That part is all you.

Bill, You're a class act, as usual.

Merry Christmas all,

SB

stewartb said:

Doug, My comment was concise and articulated what I meant to say. Lars is a product representative and Mike is a paid service provider. A homebuilder is neither and has a different set of concerns. I suspect the majority of readers here took the comment at face value and not as a characterization of anyone's skills or abilities. That part is all you.

Bill, You're a class act, as usual.

Merry Christmas all,

SB

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I am going to let this go, but why would there be any difference in the people, i guess thats where then i dont understand. I know people that have borrowed money to built there dream, so whats the difference?

this conversation seems to have took a surreal turn/fork in the road????....

cocktail time must be different(and earlier) than here...

Not really Mike, some have said or showed Oratex is working out for them and there called, Yahoos. If it works for one and not another, why? What is the real deal? What is being done different?

Your comment "nothing to loose(lose)" spawned my point which is; the consistently best results are attained when following the manufacturer's products, procedures and instructions. Experiment to your hearts content but go in with your eyes wide open to the possibly of unsatisfactory results. Happy Landings, Goodnight.

pak said:

Your comment "nothing to loose(lose)" spawned my point which is; the consistently best results are attained when following the manufacturer's products, procedures and instructions. Experiment to your hearts content but go in with your eyes wide open to the possibly of unsatisfactory results. Happy Landings, Goodnight.

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ME, no way, im not experimenting, ive worked to hard i feel for the little i have, i said maybe Lars should be. By maybe looking for a way for a better end product, they have everything to gain and nothing to LOSE. That pretty much applies to everything in this world, dosent it?

Tailwindflyer said:

Ok, lots of information in this thread - thanks everyone for posting and sharing your experiences.

I am in the early stages of building a Rans S20 and am considering Oratex versus Stewarts' systems. I have zero experience with either and my priorities are:

1. No toxic fumes
2. Cost
3. Ease of the job
4. Weight

I am trying to consider the covering and finishing job as a whole, so painting costs and difficulties need to be factored in.

I really like the IDEA of Oratex, with no painting required, but am not yet convinced of the technicalities of the process.
I like the look of Corsair Blue and Silver, perhaps with the fuselage blue and wings/tail silver??

Can anyone help me compare the options?

cheers

Rich

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Hi Rich,
I can get you in contact with other Oratex builders with Rans etc. and I can send you samples of the colors, 2by3 feet sheets with some glue.
Lets talk.
Regards,
Lars

Hardtailjohn said:

Lars, is there any visual indication (never mind the blowing with compressed air test) that a seam is attaching properly? Such as with Polyfiber or Stewarts, where you look at the tape/seam that is layed down and can visually see an indication of the quality and quantity of bond by the color? Also, is that the same glue that is used for the other seams? I'm interested in trying a sample...is there a sample "kit" that I can get?
Thanks
John

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Hi John,
I be glad to send you a 2by3 feet sample and some of the tape to try out. I be glad to talk to you about it too. Also I be glad to get you in contact with Other Oratex users ( there are more than just Larry Vetterman and Mark and Roger, almost all of them do not take part in this Forum)
The Tape glue is unique to the Factory-issue Tapes, the general Oratex glue is totally different. Dan Horton of Kitplanes Magazine says its 5-8 times as strong as competing glues. Just like Stewarts systems stuff it cannot be frozen before triggered on the plane. There is the option to either not use any tapes and paint the seams, or to use "Home-made-Tapes" that get cut after the glue was applied to them by you and has dried. There are lots of options with Oratex.
Best Regards,
Lars

Lars how do you ship it in the winter if you can't freeze the glue and how do the ship from Germany to keep it from freezing and how long is the exp date on the new tapes are they only good for a year just like the glue

gntw said:

Lars how do you ship it in the winter if you can't freeze the glue and how do the ship from Germany to keep it from freezing and how long is the exp date on the new tapes are they only good for a year just like the glue

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Hi, Thanks for the good question! We ship the glue in winter in special boxes with chemical packs to keep the glue from freezing. See them here in the photo. Of course its easiest to ship glue in the summer, but the boxes in the picture are just the glue to support the winters customers here in Town! The factory tapes are using a special, different glue with no shelf life and the tape glue does not care if it gets frozen; Tapes can be shipped with no special packaging!
Merry Christmas to you,
Lars

tempdoug said:

Not really Mike, some have said or showed Oratex is working out for them and there called, Yahoos. If it works for one and not another, why? What is the real deal? What is being done different?

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MauleGuy Greg Miller simply failed to Iron the Tape on slow enough on the heatsink of the Sheet metal underneath. Not enough Dwell time for the glue to fully trigger. The rear of the tape stayed on, being behind the leading edge metal. His own photos prove it clearly. I did explain that in a previous post in detail referencing his pictures.


Also Regarding the tapes; people having tape adhesion problems may Not have wiped, or cleaned the surface before applying the tapes. On the other side there are problems with cleaners that leave a residue behind and require a follow up wipe down with other stuff. I tell people to use alcohol.
- Acyrlaclean, Dx330 I believe is one cleaner that leaves a residue behind. It's a wax/ grease/ you name it remover. Used a lot as it doesn't harm paint, fabric or even plexiglas. If you do not come back and wipe it again, it leaves behind a film of what it was supposed to remove. The product alone if not thoroughly removed ( alcohol works well) leaves a film that is "slick", glue won't stick and also paint goes to hell if sprayed on it. But it looks very clean. I can see someone wiping down to remove dust or what ever before taping with that goo and then not going after it with alcohol. It would not take much and your glue will not stick. No amount of heat will help then.
Oratex also makes de-greaser and cleaner and all kinds of stuff, even masking tape for painting and masking tape for applying glue, so that nobody has to rely on un-tested 3rd party products!


Regarding the instructions; Page 87 of the EASA instructions talks about dwell time and Ironing speeds. It also talks about testing your work with a vacuum cleaner when done, to see if something can be pulled loose!
I have also mentioned compressed air and pressure washers to test it.

Greg said pictures do not prove anything. Well I think they do prove happy customers as unhappy customers would not send happy pictures...
Just as some customers come out of the woodwork to defend a good product they like!
Merry Christmas to you and I am trying to have one as well.
Regards,
Lars

Bill Rusk said:

Okay, I guess I have to weigh in here a bit.

partail quote

Oratex - Still relatively new, thus still having issues. From my perspective, there are three issues. 1) Tapes - as discussed in this thread, 2) Overall appearance - if you decide you do not care for it when you are done - you have to recover the whole airplane, 3) And finally cost. I have no doubt a great deal of Greg's stress stems from the feeling of looking at the possibility of a complete re-cover job. That would stress anyone out.

The covering process is a HUGE investment in time and money. How much are you willing to gamble on a "failure".
Every system can point out their success stories and every system has won awards at Oshkosh. But how often do you hear of a failure? Is it just a small problem, that you can live with, or is it a full blown disaster? We all want to think we are smarter than everyone else thus the disaster would never happen to us, but I can assure you some of the total disasters with Stewarts, during their teething period, were folks that were outstanding craftsmen.
There is nothing during a build that has the same consequence as fabric issues.

I am not recommending one system over any other, just know your risk and reward, when you make your system choice.

Bill

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I know of two other aircraft that had problems, they are not my airplane so I will not speak for them or the people that own them. I am not alone in the fact that there are problems even though some people would lead you to believe this.

When I was finished with my tail feathers I almost said screw it and thought of buying Stits, I would have chalked it up to learning experience but I already had spent the big bucks for this stuff and thought it would work out. I posted some of some of my problems before being finished and got kind of jumped on by Lars, he asked me to hold off saying anymore on the internet until I had time to fly it.

I did that for him and now that it is finished I have posted the flight experience thus far.

I guess when I do something and I fail I take it personally, I am usually pretty good at what I do. When I hear others have failed with some of the same problems I know it is not just me. I really don't want to recover this airplane in a few years, I am guessing that eventually the bugs will get worked out with my fabric woes.

I know for a fact that the people who were successful with the tapes used the Hot Melt glue on all the tapes, if you do this I am sure it makes a huge difference. If your going to go to all that trouble (masking off everywhere you are putting a tape down) in order to put the hot melt brush on glue first it is going to take a lot more man hours. I would have done it this way had I been told too. I found this out after the fact from Lars expert Frank Knapp. You can call it whatever you want sour grapes etc. that I won't let Lars off the hook but his lack of knowledge about what his experts were doing with hot melt glue under all tapes kept me in the dark to the fact that it make life a lot easier when you do this.

Merry Christmas to all

Lars Gleitsmann said:

.

Partial Quote
Greg said pictures do not prove anything. Well I think they do prove happy customers as unhappy customers would not send happy pictures...
Just as some customers come out of the woodwork to defend a good product they like!
Merry Christmas to you and I am trying to have one as well.
Regards,
Lars

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Yeah your right unhappy people are only going to send you pictures of problems and I know for a fact you are not going to post them.

That is a little beast of an airplane, looks like fun thanks for sharing.

Merry Christmas Lars

Mauleguy said:

I know of two other aircraft that had problems, they are not my airplane so I will not speak for them or the people that own them. I am not alone in the fact that there are problems even though some people would lead you to believe this.
When I was finished with my tail feathers I almost said screw it and thought of buying Stits, I would have chalked it up to learning experience but I already had spent the big bucks for this stuff and thought it would work out. I posted some of some of my problems before being finished and got kind of jumped on by Lars, he asked me to hold off saying anymore on the internet until I had time to fly it.
I did that for him and now that it is finished I have posted the flight experience thus far.
I guess when I do something and I fail I take it personally, I am usually pretty good at what I do. When I hear others have failed with some of the same problems I know it is not just me. I really don't want to recover this airplane in a few years, I am guessing that eventually the bugs will get worked out with my fabric woes.
I know for a fact that the people who were successful with the tapes used the Hot Melt glue on all the tapes, if you do this I am sure it makes a huge difference. If your going to go to all that trouble (masking off everywhere you are putting a tape down) in order to put the hot melt brush on glue first it is going to take a lot more man hours. I would have done it this way had I been told too. I found this out after the fact from Lars expert Frank Knapp. You can call it whatever you want sour grapes etc. that I won't let Lars off the hook but his lack of knowledge about what his experts were doing with hot melt glue under all tapes kept me in the dark to the fact that it make life a lot easier when you do this.
Merry Christmas to all

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Greg, I told you on the phone back then that Franks and other put glue done before the tapes are put on and that it must be put down narrower than the tapes and I also did tell you then that some builders did not use any glue under the tapes and even that worked and I said that MY Ow opinion is that only a very narrow line of glue should be used etc. Please keep your/our facts straight.
I can understand your frustration, but the other Problem planes you are talking about are the two other planes that Cory worked on beside yours? Ain't it?
Oratex has WORKED for many many people since 13 years. It has been Certified by EASA and Transport Canada. EASA is normally so bad they make the FAA look like Saints! Professional Companies like the "AlpenSegelflugSchule Unterwoessen" in Germany have evaluated Oratex, flown a plane with it 400 times, and then decided to have their entire fleet re-done in Oratex; this cannot be by accident. I would not be happy to give out customer contacts(of those who agree on it) to other potential customers, if they would not be happy. If you check other Forums, there are people complaining about our prices, but you wont see anybody complain about Quality.
The problem you have there can easily be fixed and I promised to get you the tapes for that.
Oratex is radically different, and some people love it and defend it while others hate it to begin with. Just like with Cats & Guns; I hate Cats.
We have many guys who are building their second plane in Oratex now, like Gordon Dyck from Ontario, see his planes below.

Merry Christmas!

Since you brought it up the one cub is the Idaho Cub built by Doug Kellers crew. I guess the fact that he never even complained to the builder of his airplane about fabric problems is strange to me. I asked Doug to email him about his airplane when I was having problems to see how his airplane was. Here is his email

Hi Doug!Overall I'm thrilled with the plane! Can't wait to get it back to sea level.......it flies amazing here and I'm excited to take it to ak this spring and enjoy it there!!!! As for the fabric......it's the only weak point in the plane.....I wouldn't go so far as to say I wish I wouldn't have used it but I don't think it's going to hold up like the traditional covering. I've had a lot of seams loosen....one in flight and it tore open a 4 foot seam hole.....and ripped a 3-4 inch piece as it blew back !!! I've been meaning to ask you what we could use to perhaps seam seal some of those seams that are most vulnerable?? Any thoughts? Other than the seam areas however it's fine! I've got 130 hours on it. I think my mags need to be looked at.....it was starting great and within the last few hours it became really hard to start cold or hot! It's in for annual right now but my guy is slooooooooow! Hoping to have it done soon!

Hope all is well for you Doug!

Todd


and another from you Lars when I was having my own problems with the tapes

Hi again,I did some experimenting and it does look like that here and there with bigger heatsinks up to 160 Celsius is needed to trigger the tape glue fully, depending on (reasonable!) working speeds. Of course the European customers and Manufacturers with wooden and composite planes do not have that (those) problems at all. Sorry your plane is "experimental" in the sense of usage of our product. Others like Roger and Frank must have "just Gone Hotter" ...?? Of course the normal glue underneath will only tolerate THAT if its cured long enough, depending on the ambient temp.
Regards,
Lars

I remember the day my eyes were open to the fact that the tape need hot melt glue under them all and it was not by you it was by Frank Knapp and his Wife. In fact I called you and you continued to say they don't require it but some are doing it for insurance. I was very made at you that day if you remember. I told you to stick to your guns on the premise the tapes don't need hot melt glue if you like but you will have more angry customers.

The other airplane I am not talking about is not one that Doug Keller or crew had any part of but I can go get permission if you want to throw that into the conversation also.

Greg

mike mcs repair said:

1. nope, to ugly end result to try.
2. (next project I help on IS going to be experimental or such.. FYI) ABSOL FUC*(ng absolutely! I would turn down a customer that wants that ugly of an end product!) ( I probably only take on 1 in 4 projects/people that ask..)

next question(s)???

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With this, it can be concluded that nothing can be learned from your posts
about this topic. You may be the "ace of spades" in aircraft repair but your attitude
sucks.

Taken from the internet did not check if it was true but sounded plausible.
Here are some of them that show how people don't complain and just accept it.
1. For every customer complaint there are 26 other unhappy customers who have remained silent –Lee Resource.
2. 96% of unhappy customers don’t complain, however 91% of those will simply leave and never come back – 1Financial Training services.
3. A dissatisfied customer will tell between 9-15 people about their experience. Around 13% of dissatisfied customers tell more than 20 people. – White House Office of Consumer Affairs.
4. Happy customers who get their issue resolved tell about 4-6 people about their experience. – White House Office of Consumer Affair.
5. It takes 12 positive experiences to make up for one unresolved negative experience – “Understanding Customers” by Ruby Newell-Legner.

With this fabric being pre-finished why can't the failures being described here be repaired? Why can't the old tapes be removed and replaced with the new improved tapes? I understand there's a great deal of tension between Greg and Lars but ultimately the problem needs to be fixed. What's the best way to execute a satisfactory repair?

Lars.... can it be salvaged?
Greg.... is salvaging it a viable option or is it time to take a razor knife to it and start over?

I hope it does not have to be cut off, at present with cost of materials and paid labor I have around 12K not including my time to cover the tail feather and fuselage.

I put it in the hanger and have not looked at it since the last flight where the 4" tape came off. It is cold in the hanger, not comfortably heated like my shop so going over to look for problems is not high on my list. Easier to bitch about it:sad:

Ultimately I figure both of you want the same thing. Fix it, fly it, put the problems behind you. I hope it works out. This isn't a night for ill will. This is a night to celebrate.

Merry Christmas.

stewartb said:

With this fabric being pre-finished why can't the failures being described here be repaired? Why can't the old tapes be removed and replaced with the new improved tapes? I understand there's a great deal of tension between Greg and Lars but ultimately the problem needs to be fixed. What's the best way to execute a satisfactory repair?

Lars.... can it be salvaged?
Greg.... is salvaging it a viable option or is it time to take a razor knife to it and start over?

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It seems to me, without pointing fingers, that if the tapes just "came off easy," wouldnt the solution be simply apply the latest greatest tapes? Crank the heat up to account for heat sink, iron sufficiently and go on with life? My money says Lars would be more than willing to provide the tapes and have this thing resolved.

This back and forth has "hanging chad" written all over it.

Mauleguy said:

Since you brought it up the one cub is the Idaho Cub built by Doug Kellers crew. I guess the fact that he never even complained to the builder of his airplane about fabric problems is strange to me. I asked Doug to email him about his airplane when I was having problems to see how his airplane was. Here is his email

Hi Doug!Overall I'm thrilled with the plane! Can't wait to get it back to sea level.......it flies amazing here and I'm excited to take it to ak this spring and enjoy it there!!!! As for the fabric......it's the only weak point in the plane.....I wouldn't go so far as to say I wish I wouldn't have used it but I don't think it's going to hold up like the traditional covering. I've had a lot of seams loosen....one in flight and it tore open a 4 foot seam hole.....and ripped a 3-4 inch piece as it blew back !!! I've been meaning to ask you what we could use to perhaps seam seal some of those seams that are most vulnerable?? Any thoughts? Other than the seam areas however it's fine! I've got 130 hours on it. I think my mags need to be looked at.....it was starting great and within the last few hours it became really hard to start cold or hot! It's in for annual right now but my guy is slooooooooow! Hoping to have it done soon!

Hope all is well for you Doug!

Todd
The other airplane I am not talking about is not one that Doug Keller or crew had any part of but I can go get permission if you want to throw that into the conversation also.
Greg

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Greg, I have more than once told you, even here in this forum, that I be glad to get you new tapes ! I even said here before I get them to you free of charge! What else do you want? Spoil my Christmas? - You are getting That done for sure.
And yes; I know Todd well and Paul knows him even better as he has worked with him in the past about Aircraft Engines.
Todd flew the plane in question to Anchorage and Paul and I worked on it for two days, fixing all kinds of stuff. I also talked to his mechanic. Todd told us he was happy with it all !!! He spend half a day with us and his plane sure had a lot of stuff that needed help. He send me this photo as a Thanks you and I took lots of photos when it was here. The plane "YOU NEED to seek permission about", I am curious which one it might be.
Shall I guess? I tell you want, I guess you keep looking for planes that needed help and I keep posting photos of happy Oratex planes that did not need help, and we can keep that up and waste our time and probably do some good old aviation-entertainment for all these folks watching here. I bet it beats the getting swept under the rug by the aviation media and it also beats paying 22500 for a full page ad in FlyinMag.
On this Forum I have explained the development of the tapes and I have called the tapes finicky myself. We have new ones now and even customers with the same ones you had that did not have problems posted And they did not have glue underneath. Are you claiming I am faking posts of those people? -in one of your prior post you make it sound like that. NOT Funny!
I told you the glue underneath is optional on the phone and I told you I would put it under there, and I told you that I would put some under there just as other did. YOU complained back then you did not like the looks of it etc.
I do what I can, I even do what I can for you! - I do appreciate the great work you did with the wonderful fun videos that you published, and I do hope you do more of them,
But I dont know what your agenda is here and what else I could write about it. I have explained it all and thankfully you showed the photos to let me do that. I did appreciate that you posted them, that was fair.
Now can we have a peaceful Christmas ?
Best Regards & Merry Christmas & SEE HERE TODD's plane after Paul and I worked on it.
Lars

stewartb said:

With this fabric being pre-finished why can't the failures being described here be repaired? Why can't the old tapes be removed and replaced with the new improved tapes? I understand there's a great deal of tension between Greg and Lars but ultimately the problem needs to be fixed. What's the best way to execute a satisfactory repair?

Lars.... can it be salvaged?
Greg.... is salvaging it a viable option or is it time to take a razor knife to it and start over?

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Of course it can be salvaged, Get the old that are loose tapes off, and put new tapes on, maybe a line of glue in the middle if so desired, and that should be fixed!
One could even just paint the seams instead of using the tapes, if that is desired.
Its an easy fix.
And It's Christmas, Ain't it or is it not?
Regards,
Lars

I am done posting about Oratex Lars. Please get me the new tapes and I will put em on.



Merry Christmas

Mauleguy said:

I am done posting about Oratex Lars. Please get me the new tapes and I will put em on.

Merry Christmas

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Hi Greg,
I am very glad that you are willing to try our new tapes and I be glad to get them to you as fast as the factory can as soon as they open after the Christmas Holidays.
There will be an email with the tracking-info as soon as they ship.
Thank you for this consideration/decision.
Best Regards, a Merry Christmas & Happy New Year!
Lars

Here an Aviation Christmas party of EAA chapter 526, ain't it fun?