Pa-12-150 vs Pa-18-150

I'm looking to get into one or the other I was thinking the 18 was the way to go. But I have heard from both sides goods and bads of going with a 12 instead. Just wanted to see people's opinions in here and see what I would really be losing if I went with a 12 or if I'm going to spend the money on a 12 just go with the 18 and I would be happier at the end of the day. Input would be appreciated. Thanks

Oh man, you really stepped in it this time! This will get all kinds of responses, on both sides of the aisle. A properly built 12 will do just about anything an 18 will, but its a lot of work to properly build a 12. A well built 12 will have a 150/160 on a short mount which requires all new cowling and re-wiring/re-plumbing through the left side of the firewall to accommodate a swinging mount like the 18 has. You will also have to buy an 18 exhaust system and airbox. Now its on to the landing gear, which gets swapped out for 18 legs and external bungees with custom length shock struts. In order to do this you'll have to weld in an external cabane structure. While you're at it, get 3" extended gear to help with the 12's lower angle of incidence (a lot of hay has been made over the incidence issue, but with extended legs and 31" Bushwheels its a non-issue). O.K. - take a breath... Now you have to open up the wings and install flaps using either 18 or 14 hardware (14 is really the way to go here, the flaps are slightly longer). Of course, you'll have to install the cabling into the fuselage and the flap handle assembly. Finally its back to the tail where you'll need to swap out the elevator & horiz. stab. assembly for that of an 18, which is aerodynamically counterbalanced. A couple of other niceties are an under seat battery and wing root sight tubes for the fuel. You're also going to want a swing-up (seaplane) door. I've probably missed a couple things, but those are the biggies. Obviously were talking about a complete teardown and rebuild here, which is the perfect time to do it. In fact, if you really want a tricked out 12 and have the budget, I recommend buying a tired airplane and doing it in one big swoop. All else being equal, the 12 will probably end up 30 or 40 pounds heavier than the 18 due to the extra steel in the fuselage-can't be helped. When you get a 12 built to this level, the difference in what it can do vs. an 18 will lie more with the operator than the machine. I have a 12 with all the above except the short mount, and that happens next month when it goes in for rebuild/recover/paint. Its a highly capable aircraft and I LOVE the interior volume (extended baggage is a must). In order to build a modded 12 a lot of parts have to be fabbed, which could otherwise be bought if it were for an 18. Now, all that having been said, figure out your budget and go from there. A common 12 upgrade(s) is a 150 and flaps, and this is a great start. There are plenty of them out there and such an aircraft can be had for way less than a stock 18/150 and you'll have a fun, affordable STOL aircraft that will take you a lot of places. On the other side of that coin, the stock 18/150 will be the superior performer. A well modded 12 is definitely a labor of love. And money.

as above.....
unless you buy a previously totally modded -12, remember EVERYTHING has to be hand built to modify your -12 $$$..... and WILL cost more than the finished product is worth..... not quite the same on a -18 $ wise.... and you still are upside down $ in a -12 in the end....

18 all the way!

The biggest reason to own a 12 is chicks dig them !! :lol:

It's true a 12 does cost more to rebuild,I just finish mine, but I'm a big guy and enjoy the room the plane provides. For me an 18 fit like a jacket thats one size too small. I don't think I'm upside down yet mike, but i admit it's easy to do once you start the process. It's always just one more thing (ouch!!!
In a tricked out PA-12 most people will tell you it will never takeoff as short as a Supercub, and I agree but the margin isn't that much difference for the average adventure pilot. Others will say that the 12 will fly faster, I guess thats true too but again its a marginal amount. The Pro's on this site who use the 18, I think the majority of them would still agree that except in the most extreme situations that the modified 12 would get the job done 90% of the time. (that statement should start a fire

I was lucky I found a 12 with 150hp, 18 tail feathers, borer prop. Total time of around 1700 hours that was in a dry warm climate and hangared it's entire life. I got into it reasonably but it needed fabric and some upgrades. If you go the 12 route just be patience there are deals out there, but take your time. If I had to do it over again I wouldn't buy a certified airplane, the paperwork alone is remarkable, it weights a ton. The wide body 18 kits provide extra room and you have more flexibility than with the certified PA-18, just a thought.

Good Luck , in my limited opinion either way you go your a winner. It's absolutely great fun and excitement wrapped into one small airplane.

Dare I say, And on the 8th Day God made an airplane! and he called it a Cub........

UTAH, thats too funny about the paperwork, because it DOES weigh a ton. I have two big ring binders full of it. I'm in about the same situation as you in that I bought a plane with a vast majority of the mods already done for a reasonable price. I did the Borer, +3" gear and 31's. The final icing on the cake (or nail in the coffin) will be the Crosswinds short mount, which is being done in conjunction with fabric and paint. As far as the 12 being marginally faster, I wish somebody would tell my airplane that. Of course, if I hadn't hung all that crap on it ............

Set your budget. See how many -12s and -18s fit into your price range. Be honest and figure your after-purchase maintenance and upgrades budget for each plane you consider. Then buy the best airplane you can afford. If you want to spend $60K you'll have a much different list than if your budget is $125K. A good -12 is better than a mediocre -18 and vice versa but neither is worth a crap if you can't afford to keep it airworthy.

If your looking for a rehab project consider MCS Mike's advice very carefully. A Supercub will be easier and less expensive to renew and will provide a better equity position when you're finished. There's nothing wrong with a PA12 project but the return on investment is less favorable than with an equivalent PA18 project.

Depends on your mission. Do you need three seats?

Is the cruise speed more important than performance?

Family camping machine or personal fun?

Hunting with dogs?

Cross country?

Define your mission then buy what will best accomplish that mission. It might not even be a Piper product.


Bill

Do a search on this subject and you will find a lot of information in addition to what is posted here.

What Bill said, I have a 12 with all the mods and for what i do the extra room can't be replaced.I think all of us go through the same process when buying a plane and trying to decide what we want or need. i love them both but i NEED a 12.

If you are thinking floats, the double sea plane doored 12 is a nice way to go. The 18 gear on the 12 negates the 12 speed advantage. There is about a 100' diff between a 12 and an 18... Not much in the overall scheme of things...

Bill Rusk said:

Depends on your mission. Do you need three seats?

Bill

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If you need 3 seats look for a 4 seat Skywagon

The rear seat is very comfortable for one. It can hold two very snug. But two average size people would be very uncomfortable for more than a short hop.

Neither of my not so big kids want to ride in the back with mom anymore.

Rene

We've owned and operated at least a half dozen of each, and each had it's pluses and minuses. You should arrange to fly one of each and decide if you like it. They are different, and each and every airplane will be different from the next one of the exact same configuration. One point is that if you look around, you may find a basically stock Super Cruiser upgraded with a 150 for considerably less money than a Cub. If you just want to fly and don't need the performance, a stock 108/115 Super Cruiser is a truly fine airplane, and generally they're smooth as silk. Plus they're cheap to run, and retain "classic" plane value to some extent. Most all, get a complete and competent pre-purchase inspection. Shiny on the outside, isn't always so for the inside. That Smith Cub PA-12 for sale on the home page is about as nice as it gets on a PA-12. On the other hand 35-40K may buy you a stock Cruiser to fly until you really know your needs. One thing for sure, it will be way cheaper to buy a modified plane than do it yourself. That's for those with time, money, and patience. Happy landings!

I think we can all agree that the -14 is vastly superior to both the -12 and -18. PA-14 pilots tend to be more intelligent and better looking. Scientific fact. I have heard the SJ want to rename this site: Familycruiser.org to honor the best of the cub breed.

Thank you!!

Lasater said:

I think we can all agree that the -14 is vastly superior to both the -12 and -18. PA-14 pilots tend to be more intelligent and better looking. Scientific fact. I have heard the SJ want to rename this site: Familycruiser.org to honor the best of the cub breed.

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From the surgeon general: PA-14 owners tend to be delusional, and all statements from them should be considered a bit expounded.

The -12 is like a wife; the -18 is like a mistress. Both have character, good and bad. Get one of each, but not in the same hangar.

Ish....drop me a PM and I'll walk you through the pain and joy of rebuilding a PA-12, if you want to know that aspect.

I really like my -12 for the extra room it has, both for me and behind the pilot seat. The 18 will be a better performer for the STOL applications, but there is more room for the pilot in the -12.

If you need more room, but not for the pilot, get a Skywagon.

If you need -18 performance, first make sure YOU can fly the plane to it's capabilities, second make sure you NEED 18 performance. My -12 is nice in many ways and was not rebuilt to be a STOL star, but it still outflies me and as much as the mountaintops look tempting, my "mission" will never require world class STOL performance. Since I've got 800 ft. plus at my preferred destination, and close to the interior room of a 180, and can haul two pax in a pinch for a short trip, the 12 is good for me.

If you decide you have to have a -12....drop a line and I'll add some more thoughts.

Lasater said:

I think we can all agree that the -14 is vastly superior to both the -12 and -18. PA-14 pilots tend to be more intelligent and better looking. Scientific fact. I have heard the SJ want to rename this site: Familycruiser.org to honor the best of the cub breed.

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You have to remember that your -14 gene pools has been greatly diluted by Tim and his 2+2.

Glenn

We will take Tim because imitation (Sportsman 2+2) is the sincerest form of flattery. Also, there aren't many -14's left.

Thanks Lasater, we have to stick together, at least I don't fly an old junk J4

Tim said:

Thanks Lasater, we have to stick together, at least I don't fly an old junk J4

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Keep practicing Timmy and I might let you.

Glenn

cubdriver2 said:

Keep practicing Timmy and I might let you.

Glenn

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Wouldn't want to be caught in that... 8)

Aaaa

Sorry . I made a post with a lot of derogatory comments toward fat cubs and can't deleat it from the phone. Fat cubs need love too .

Thank you everyone for the input so far it's nice to get input from both sides.

Aviator said:

The -12 is like a wife; the -18 is like a mistress. Both have character, good and bad. Get one of each, but not in the same hangar.

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One of the funniest answers I've ever read!

I'm a very happy PA-12-150 owner. Can I land those last 10% of strips an -18 would with my inferior piloting skills? Nope. Do I need to? Nope. Can I fly 7 or 8 hours in a day and still want to get back in it the next day, a lot more than I'd want to get back in an -18? Definitely. Did I pay nearly half for my PA-12 what I would have paid for a similar -18? Yup. That's a lot of money left over for burning holes in the sky, unless you burn up all those dollars trying to make your -12 into an -18 (I won't say it's like spending a bunch of money on plastic surgery for your wife, but...).

Well, I must say truthfully 95% of us don't use our aircraft to the extreme limits of what they are capable of. That being said you should pick an aircraft based on your personal needs/wants. To me the performance difference between a -18/-12/14 is the same. Because I wouldn't land a -18 anyway else I wouldn't land a -12/14. So if you want that feel of "wearing wings" buy a cub, if you want something that has more room and space, go for a -12/14. But at the end of the day everyone ends up fishing on the same lake.

RanchPilot: Glad to hear you like your 12. Just climbed out of my 12 after two fun hours on skis. Visiting friends with nice snowy hay fields. Of coarse I am spoiled with our low elevation, so performance is great. My Montana "friends" refer to my 12 as my "fat girl". I think they are just jelous of my extra room. Lets fly !!!