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Thread: Lowrider LSA

  1. #1881
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I worked second shift and actually met Igor Sikorsky while I was working there when he walked through the plant one evening.
    N1PA
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  2. #1882
    Lowrider
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    My ailerons do 23* up and 18* down. That said, if I were going to do gap seals for them what would I use that won't eat up the paint on the aileron? Next question, are gap seals really worth it for a pretty low speed plane?

    I do plan on something to seal the top of the flaps which will be extended skin to a point...haven't got there yet but know I want them.
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  3. #1883
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Before you address aileron gap seals, you need to discuss what type of ailerons you have along with the hinge location. Some types of ailerons want the air to flow up through the slot for more effective control. Can you show a picture of the cross section of the aileron including the hinge location?
    N1PA

  4. #1884
    Lowrider
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    Yes Sir, I can, just not now as long as I have the wing upright. Guess I'll wait and ask this later. I left 4" of extra top skin on each sheet so I can extend it over the ailerons which should allow the air flow to stay on top of the aileron. I'll check the plans and see if it shows any detail.
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  5. #1885
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Starting just before 8:00 minutes. https://youtu.be/q_eMQvDoDWk This shows the airflow through a slot and over the flap helping to hold the airflow in the boundary area on top of the flap. The ailerons work in a similar manner. When the leading edge dips below the bottom of the wing it can direct air through the slot over the top of the aileron helping to push it down. I would not want the gap sealed. If it is a hinged aileron, it would not be as effective. A little time spent looking ought to find more videos showing airflow over the ailerons.
    N1PA

  6. #1886
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Fyi....... When airplanes fly less than, say, 30 mph the airflow acts different than 50 mph air.

    Maybe sealed gaps are a good thing.

  7. #1887
    Lowrider
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    Well, I should have consulted the drawings first...my bad. There is suppose to be skin over the pocket ribs and rearward to maybe 1/2" clearance between the skin and the aileron in the up position...that provides the "gap seal" I was considering. There is no skin on the bottom of the wing that extends beyond the rear spar but I suppose that's less important drag wise than the top. The flaps get essentially the same thing but will extend over the flap in the up condition and allow air flow over top of the flap when deployed.

    Thanks Gents for the comments and the info on air flow.
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  8. #1888
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    Fyi....... When airplanes fly less than, say, 30 mph the airflow acts different than 50 mph air.

    Maybe sealed gaps are a good thing.
    Not sure what you mean.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  9. #1889
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Yep

    Wayne Mackey stuff....

    less than 30 mph a Helio slat aint a slat...unless you give it more gap to flow through

    maybe Lowrider wants to seal his aileron gaps...maybe he doesnt.

  10. #1890
    Lowrider
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    Top skin is on.

    Turning to thoughts of the wing tip. The current plan (discussed earlier) is to just square off the tip and install nav/strobe lights and be done with it for the time being. Basically, just a piece of 0.020 screwed to last rib. Thoughts please!

    Dave/Sky,

    My aileron control stuff is set up to allow normal operation or drooped ailerons by moving one bolt on the control rod. It's the droop position that makes me wonder about air flow over the top of the aileron. I THINK there needs to be some flow over the top at low speed and the planned top skin would reduce or eliminate air flow at high angle of attack...I think. Until I get the control surfaces mounted and set up it's hard to be sure. I will say that the original designer had apparently no intention of offering droops so they are not taken into consideration when the top skin overlap was planned. The conventional pocket ribs provide a pretty good seal on the top, as much as possible while still allowing 23* up aileron.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  11. #1891
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    When a drooping system is installed there is less up aileron available. Up aileron has more effect on roll control than down aileron particularly at the "new" lower flying speed. Drooping ailerons are good at the expense of reduced crosswind control capabilities.

    Most any shaped tip other than a flat plate would have lower drag and improved aileron control at minimum speeds.
    N1PA

  12. #1892
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    What would be wrong with using the commercially available wing tips that are designed for those wing ribs?
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  13. #1893
    Lowrider
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    Nothing wrong, but I'd need to extend them to match the cord of the aileron which wouldn't be that big of a deal...little fiberglass and some resin I suppose.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  14. #1894
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    That's a good idea since it sounds as though the ailerons go to the tip rib. By placing a short piece of tip outboard of the aileron you will get a more effective aileron by pushing the tip vortex away from the aileron. Without the tip the vortex will disturb the flow at the outboard section of the aileron.
    N1PA
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  15. #1895
    Lowrider
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    Hmmm I thought Avipro made them but they are not on their site....might need to build them or something. Any other ideas?
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  16. #1896
    Lowrider
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    How about a 180/182 tip...might be close in size. Next size up I thing would be 185/206/207. Any good place to get sizes?
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  17. #1897
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    They're on Bob Barrows site. He has his own site. Avipro no longer exists. Its now called Bearhawk Aircraft.

  18. #1898
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Cub. The Avipro site is still up and running. I'll check Bearhawk site.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  19. #1899
    Lowrider
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    Hmmm must be a link to the same site...no wing tips on either Patrol or LSA parts pages. I'll call.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  20. #1900
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Hmmm I thought Avipro made them but they are not on their site....might need to build them or something. Any other ideas?
    http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...sc-Piper-Parts


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  21. #1901
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    LSA wingtips are $305 at www.randbaircraft.com.
    Practicing open cockpit extremism
    Thanks Lowrider thanked for this post

  22. #1902
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    How about a 180/182 tip...might be close in size. Next size up I thing would be 185/206/207. Any good place to get sizes?
    same-same. 152/172/180/185/206, etc.

  23. #1903
    Lowrider
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    Didn't know that Dave! I thought the 175 and down were one family and 180 and up were another.

    Mark,

    I called Bob and he has a set just down the road from me that he'll sell at a discount since he shipped the wrong ones to a Patrol builder. The guys are in my EAA Chapter so I can get them next week at the meeting...Great deal...thanks for the info!!!
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
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  24. #1904

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    lowrider, What is the cord length on that wing for that bearhawk LSA?

  25. #1905
    Lowrider
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    Don,

    Around 5'. If you need specific numbers I can get that for you.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  26. #1906

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    if

  27. #1907

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    If63inchbarrowstipswouldwork on my plane.

  28. #1908
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    I think the LSA airfoil used by Bob Barrows is 63"

  29. #1909
    Lowrider
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    I can measure tomorrow but I have a set of LSA tips coming form Bob so they should fit just pretty well. When I said I lengthened the chord I meant the length to 8' but the chord is a little longer than normally would be according to the plans since I made them the same as the flaps which aren't on the LSA so I think I'll need to add a bit to the tips chord wise but I won't know how much until I get them all together on the wing.

    Hope that makes sense.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  30. #1910

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    I think I'll call Bob Barrows. I bet he can give me the scoop. My airfoil is 4412 which I believe to be similar to the Ribblet.

  31. #1911
    Lowrider
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    After sitting for 18 months I got all my engine parts back on Friday from the "engine guy" that was going to rebuild it for me...he's too busy. I have 2 others on the line to take over. I think I'll get in touch with Lycon and see what they can do for the jugs and pistons. Crank is yellow tagged along with rods and misc parts except for the cam which came back red tagged. One lobe is somewhat rounded and the rest can probably be reground to spec. If it were a car cam it would be easy to find someone to weld and regrind the cam...but...as soon as I mention airplane, they're not interested. But then, if it were a car cam I could order one up from Jegs or someone for a reasonable price. It's not like I have a complete plane waiting for an engine but at some point it needs to be hung on the front and all the misc stuff needs to be done forward of the firewall.

    Spent yesterday doing access panels...forgot how much I love nut plates!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  32. #1912
    Lowrider
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    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  33. #1913
    Lowrider
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    Does anyone know if there are rubber "boots" to seal off the hole in the wing where flap and aileron actuation rods move? I'm trying to keep bugs and critters out of the wing and am thinking maybe some inner tube rubber with a hole for the rod would help. We have a huge crop of yellow jackets here every summer. I'm hoping the hard/cold winter will help but probably not. Ideas?
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  34. #1914
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    You could make a Teepee out of fabric for this purpose.
    N1PA

  35. #1915
    Lowrider
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    Are you thinking something like nylon screen fabric?
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  36. #1916
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Anything that is flexible and durable to constant flexing. Fasten the base to the edges of the hole and tape or tie-rap the top to the push rod in a location which will preclude stretching at full extension.
    N1PA

  37. #1917
    Lowrider
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    OK...I'm using the screen on the inside of the lightening holes to keep the little fellows out so that could work there too if it will withstand the flexing. I thought maybe rubber would be better where the rods move but I'll give it a try.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  38. #1918
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    If your idea of using a screen utilizes a slot for the push rod, that slot could leave a small opening for the critters to squeeze through.
    Something along these lines would work. http://www.classicaerodesigns.com/we...p?ProductID=79
    N1PA

  39. #1919
    Lowrider
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    Great idea Sky!

    I have some Cordura fabric but it's pink (don't ask) so I need to get a yard of white and play with that. I can make some alum rings out of 0.025 to hold the cone against the rear spar and 505 cord or wire tie to hold it on the rod.

    Your Goggle foo is much more powerful than mine or I don't ask the right question!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  40. #1920
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Save the aluminum rings and fasteners, just use some contact cement. You could spray paint the pink.
    N1PA

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