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Thread: Lowrider LSA

  1. #1801
    Lowrider
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    Foam and 6 mil vapor barrier in progress.

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    100 PSI for 30 minutes...PASSED and slab pour happens in the morning. Weather is cooperating with fairly cool temps but the slab needs a shower for a couple days. Framing starts Friday when we'll see if #2 son and I can set a 16' high 20' long wall with my tractor...loader can do it, rest is still a question...we'll see.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

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  2. #1802

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    Never seen the pex put in both directions. Usually about 12" on center in one direction.
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  3. #1803
    Lowrider
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    I doubled up in areas where I'll be standing a lot like next to benches and where the plane might sit for work to take place. 9 - 12 inches apart in 8 zones so I can adjust flow and temp, either or both together. We'll see how it works out this Winter. My current shop has several cool spots and I am hoping to reduce the chance of that happening in this shop.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  4. #1804
    Lowrider
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    Roof on and moving ahead...now if wet weather will wait for me!

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    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  5. #1805
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    Fabric seat bottom

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Roberts View Post
    Seems a little heavy. Have you thought about using heavy weight Polyfiber or Ceconite on the seat bottoms. That is what a lot of builders are putting in their Bearhawks and Patrols now. I weaved aluminum strips in mine, before the fabric idea came up. Mine weighed a little less than 9 lbs with cushions and upholstery. If I were doing it again I would try the fabric idea.

    Dave
    I admire all the great ideas to save weight but always wonder first: what would happen in a crash? Has anyone gone through a crash with a Ceconite/Polyfiber fabric seat bottom? Seems like the fabric would be gone instantly and your hip bones would only be supported by three half inch wide tubes and the seat cushion. Maybe, I am wrong and a couple of layers of fabric would hold up to the G force. How many downward Gs do you have in a stall spin crash? Seems like you could test it fairly easily.

  6. #1806
    Lowrider
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    Well, the weather has turned a bit chilly so I put work on my new shop on hold for warmer weather and was ready to get back to work on Lowrider LSA. I just had a coupe chores to do such as hooking up the snow blower on the little tractor. Well,it needed a little adjustment and I managed to smash my left hand with the 3 point hitch arm. No bones broken but I did manage to rip a 3" x 4" patch of skin off the back of my hand down to the tendons and tore some veins out too. Too early to know about skin grafts till we see how it heals but I won't be using it for 8 - 12 weeks. Damn it he said along with other things.

    Don't give up on this project as delayed as it may be...I'll get there!! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  7. #1807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Well, the weather has turned a bit chilly so I put work on my new shop on hold for warmer weather and was ready to get back to work on Lowrider LSA. I just had a coupe chores to do such as hooking up the snow blower on the little tractor. Well,it needed a little adjustment and I managed to smash my left hand with the 3 point hitch arm. No bones broken but I did manage to rip a 3" x 4" patch of skin off the back of my hand down to the tendons and tore some veins out too. Too early to know about skin grafts till we see how it heals but I won't be using it for 8 - 12 weeks. Damn it he said along with other things.

    Don't give up on this project as delayed as it may be...I'll get there!! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!!!
    Ouch, sorry to hear. Don't forget to keep the rest of your body in shape while you're down.
    Practicing open cockpit extremism

  8. #1808
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Marcus!! Getting pretty chilly up your way too.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  9. #1809

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    ohh man sorry to hear that hope ya heal up soon. Living in our hangar now for the first winter with floor heat and loving it. 50x50 floor 3 inches of foam 11 runs of 300 feet of 1/2 inch pex and using Toyo om128 oil fired boiler to heat house is not finished yet so living in hangar is taking up airplane room for the winter.

    Merry CHRISTMAS , Safe happy new year to ya

  10. #1810
    Lowrider
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    Thank Esk!

    We had -15F (that nice dry and crisp cold air direct from Fairbanks) a couple days ago and the hydronics heat kept use toasty warm in the house and shop. Glad yours is working great too. I haven't filled the tubes in my new shop but it's all ready to go.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  11. #1811
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear about your hand. Get well soon. And Merry Christmas.

  12. #1812
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Dave! Glad to hear from you.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  13. #1813
    Lowrider
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    I was just out in the shop trying to find something I can do with one hand. I'm pretty much ready to start putting al skin on the left wing and it's clear I can't buck rivets with one hand. Plans call for 1/8" rivets @ 1.5" OC thru heavier materials and 3/32" @ 1.5" OC thru 0.020 and 0.015 skin and ribs.

    Does anyone have thoughts on using good quality pulled rivets at 1 inch OC in place of 3/32" bucked solid rivets? I have an air powered puller that I can use with one hand. I understand the drag issue but is it really significant at 125 knots?
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  14. #1814

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    FWIW: I'm heating my rad floor system at my crane yard building, with an electric boiler, with electricity I generated this spring, summer, and fall. The utility stores this access, not really, but in effect. I get a credit shown on my billing statement, same difference. I use no power except for a light for a minute or two until heating season starts. I keep the slab at 50 degrees. Electric boilers have no combustion losses, 100% efficient pretty much, and no flue gases to deal with (running a vent stack through the roof, etc.) Same with the home shop and hangar, all electric, all excess generated by yours truly.

    I've found for something like a hangar or a shop, using the rad floor to just take the chill off is real easy, and then for when you're doing like something fabric work and you want it that last 10 or 15 degrees warmer, an aux heater (in my case a 4KW wall mounted electric heater, along with a cheap ceiling fan) can easily do so, as you don't have a huge heat sink of an ice cold concrete slab.

  15. #1815
    Lowrider
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    Courier,

    You have the smartest heating system I've heard of anywhere. I did look at solar a couple times but I have too many trees that aren't mine.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  16. #1816

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Courier,

    You have the smartest heating system I've heard of anywhere. I did look at solar a couple times but I have too many trees that aren't mine.
    You got me there, that's a good reason. But....how many and how high, ha ha. Here's a pic of a customer I set up a few years back with 6 KW, up 60'! i apologize if I posted this pic before, but I do like it. He had a tree problem also. To para phrase, "To a guy with a crane, every problem has a solution, that involves a crane."


    On a more serious note: today's grid tied solar systems can be set up a long ways away, hundreds of feet anyway, as the voltage coming out of the arrays can be as high as 600 volts (still DC). This compares to the old off grid setups, where keeping everything close was crucial. Even there though, nowadays, the newer MPPT controllers can allow array outputs of very high voltages, keeping the wire runs cheap by using smaller wire, while still once that power is in the battery room, knocking the voltage down to as low as 12 VDC to charge a battery. And, during this process, they GAIN efficiency, neat stuff.

  17. #1817
    Lowrider
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    big mature Doug Fir on the East side and the same to the South across the taxiway...I own the West side but my wife has made it clear they stay. 3 Doug Fir I took out for the shop are 80' +/-. I could have used your crane to set my trusses... ridge is 29' with a 6/12 roof.

    I have some roof space that could hold some panels...still thinking.

    Is anyone else having problems with slow typing?

    Went to the Doc this morning...surgery tomorrow...to fix tendons and add skin fertilizer to speed up skin growth...may shorten recovery time...we'll see.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  18. #1818
    Lowrider
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    Surgery went well according to the Doc. More damage than thought so he repaired veins and tendons and put them back where they belonged and put in nearly 100 micro sutures. Best...recovery may be as short as 4 - 5 weeks, not 3 months!

    Thanks for all well wishes!!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  19. #1819
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Speedy recovery to you!! Being laid up is not fun, but hopefully worth it.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

  20. #1820
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    Lowrider,

    Could have been worse.

  21. #1821
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    Lowrider
    I had heard that you could sub pull rivets for solid driven rivets if you went 1 size bigger with the pull rivet . So
    I did some pull test with 1/8" avex pull rivet like I think Zenith uses ? and 3/32 driven rivets .I did it like this.
    I riveted pieces of .020 2024 together with one rivet and then pulled them by the ends till something gave .
    The 1/8" avex sheared clean with out even elongating the holes at 110 to 120 lbs , but the 3/32 driven rivet never gave , it just pulled through the .020 2024 at about 225 lbs.
    I decided that for the most part ,I am not smart enough to know where I can and can not sub pull rivets for solid driven ones

    Doug

  22. #1822
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Gordon!

    Lafoy,

    Yes Sir...it can AWAYS be worse!

    Doug,

    Thanks for the info on your tests. I agree, it's hard to beat solid rivets.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  23. #1823
    Lowrider
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    Any other thoughts on using larger and more frequent pulled rivets rather than 3/32 solid? I'm thnking of using Cherry Q rivets...not cheap but easier to do.

    Shear is 350bs, tensile 325lbs according to ACS site.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  24. #1824
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    Low,
    I'm sorry to hear that you hurt your hand and do wish you a speedy recovery.

    Pull rivets, Pop rivets, blind rivets, cherry rivets etc. We know that you are building an experimental and generally most anything goes. Personally I don't like the idea of the use of this type of rivet. Each variety has it's own different set of characteristics. Generally I believe that it is recommended to go up one diameter over the solid AN rivet. I haven't looked at the requirements for years. Generally a pull rivet doesn't expand to fill the hole in as tight a fashion as does the driven rivet thus their holding power is not as strong. Generally the FAA frowns on the use of pulled rivets as a primary fastener. They are allowed in certain locations minimally when a driven rivet can not be bucked. You will find pulled rivets used in some certified airplanes in applications such as holding on wing or control surface skins. I have found that pulled rivets do not hold up nearly as well as driven rivets in areas of high vibration such as in the prop wash region of the wing or engine baffles. They elongate their holes, thus loosing their effectiveness.

    If I were you, I would find something else to do until you are well enough to drive and buck rivets.

    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 12-26-2016 at 01:45 PM.
    N1PA

  25. #1825
    Lowrider
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    Hey Sky!!

    Good to hear from you!!

    As usual, you're spot on. I know I should just wait but I've been planning to jump on the plane as soon as it was too cold to work on my new shop and this little "set back" screwed up my plans big time. As Lafoy mentioned I suppose I should just be happy I still have the hand...could have gone otherwise.

    The best to every one for the New Year!!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  26. #1826

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    An old boy I knew (died last year, at 96) survived 2000 hrs of combat flying Corsairs off carriers in WW2, then a 50 year career as an aerial applicator, pioneering the use of night time spraying in central California, all injury free. Only to get his right arm tore clear OFF by a tractor PTO. It landed about 20' away, his nurse daughter calmly picked it up and took him and it to the hospital where they sewed it back on. It worked, sort of, better then nothing anyway. Since he told me that story, EVERY time I work around my tractor (put the snowblower on it yesterday) I think of it.

  27. #1827
    Lowrider
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    Courier,

    Trust me when I say this is a meaningful experience for me...not soon forgotten.

    I lost a neighbor to a PTO accident years ago...they can be deadly!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  28. #1828
    Lowrider
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    Wasn't sure where else to put this but thought there may be some folks who would benefit from this info from AOPA:

    Question of the Week You own an aircraft that never had an engine-driven electrical system, but it has a battery-fed system that runs the radio when you need it. You never had to equip with a transponder because the aircraft was exempt under 14 CFR 91.215(b)(3). The FAA's mandate to equip with Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out, as described in 14 CFR 91.225, does not include the words "engine driven." Must you equip for ADS-B Out because your aircraft has a battery-fed electrical system?

    No. According to this FAA letter of interpretation, the difference in wording was not meant to change anything concerning exemptions, and the same aircraft that were exempt from transponder equipage are exempt from ADS-B Out equipage.

    I have all my hanger door panels built and painted, nearly ready to hang. It has actually been above above freezing a number of times and if I can get my big tractor running again I'll clear the snow at the airport property and at least get ready to start working on the shop again.

    My hand is progressing at a rapid rate now and I can actually pick up and hold a pencil in my hand. May not seem like a great feat but is a milestone for me. This whole experience has given me a new feeling of respect for those folks who have lost a body part (especially our wounded brothers in arms) and they have/are going thru recovery. I'm lucky I have the hand to deal with it.
    Last edited by Lowrider; 01-27-2017 at 10:11 AM.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
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  29. #1829
    Lowrider
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    Hmmm vibration from holding the bucking bar in my bad hand causes PAIN...so...knowing what the doctor would say if I explained the problem...I saved myself a trip to town and I stopped doing it.

    I can however use it for several other tasks like holding a rule or tape for measuring. I was able to drill all the holes for the bottom fuel tank straps and bend them to proper shape so I'm ready to make the "hat" stiffeners in the morning and proceed with the first group of nut plates for access panels under the wing in the fuel tank area. I'm planning to squeeze the little 426 rivets for the nut plates. I'm planning two 3" x 12" panels between the 1st inboard rib and the tank which will provide access to all the fuel fittings from the bottom of the wing and the top wing panel will allow access from the top as well as allowing tank removal.

    Feels good to be back on the plane and making slow but hopefully steady progress.

    Supposed to get 24" of snow by Monday evening. Just filled my propane tank...used 350 gals per month during the cold spell which I hope is almost over. Never used that much before so this may be a record cold December and January. Spring's coming!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
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  30. #1830
    marcusofcotton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Hmmm vibration from holding the bucking bar in my bad hand causes PAIN...so...knowing what the doctor would say if I explained the problem...I saved myself a trip to town and I stopped doing it.

    I can however use it for several other tasks like holding a rule or tape for measuring. I was able to drill all the holes for the bottom fuel tank straps and bend them to proper shape so I'm ready to make the "hat" stiffeners in the morning and proceed with the first group of nut plates for access panels under the wing in the fuel tank area. I'm planning to squeeze the little 426 rivets for the nut plates. I'm planning two 3" x 12" panels between the 1st inboard rib and the tank which will provide access to all the fuel fittings from the bottom of the wing and the top wing panel will allow access from the top as well as allowing tank removal.
    Low,
    Have you tried tungsten bucking bars? Spendy, but big difference.

    That first bay does a lot structurally. As nice as it would be to have access there for fuel fittings, I don't think it's a good idea structurally to install those access panels. Opinion.
    Practicing open cockpit extremism

  31. #1831
    Lowrider
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    As scary as it may sound, but...perhaps my little pea brain was hearing your thoughts...First thing this morning I measured, marked and was getting ready to cut skin and it became apparent that I didn't have very much left in the piece after I cut out the access holes. I soon realized this was a bad idea so I made a command decision and grabbed a broom and swept up a bit of the shop. When I got done I looked at the layout of holes in the skin and it was clear that this was wrong so I'm going with one piece of 0.032 with no holes.

    Thanks for the thoughts wherever they came from...and people think it's wrong to listen to the voices.

    I have a light weight bar and that's just as bad...#2 son is coming over this afternoon so he can buck these rivets.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  32. #1832
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusofcotton View Post
    That first bay does a lot structurally. As nice as it would be to have access there for fuel fittings, I don't think it's a good idea structurally to install those access panels. Opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    As scary as it may sound, but...perhaps my little pea brain was hearing your thoughts...First thing this morning I measured, marked and was getting ready to cut skin and it became apparent that I didn't have very much left in the piece after I cut out the access holes. I soon realized this was a bad idea so I made a command decision and grabbed a broom and swept up a bit of the shop. When I got done I looked at the layout of holes in the skin and it was clear that this was wrong so I'm going with one piece of 0.032 with no holes.
    While it may not be suitable in this application, it is permissible to make structural access panels. Some may only be a small round opening while others could be a long narrow panel with a gazillion screws. It does require the proper reinforcement, fastener type and spacing.
    N1PA

  33. #1833
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Sky!

    I can access the area from above if need be or from inside...just thought it would be nice to have holes on the bottom too.

    How'sthe weather back East? I have about 11" and counting.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  34. #1834

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    My little side-by-side 80hp Carlson winged lsa will do 130mph with pulled rivets and 8.00's. That's as fast as I want to go with flat unbalanced tail surfaces. It's only got 20 degrees of flap, but that's enough to get the landing below 40. Doesn't flush riveting require heavier skins? With real extruded spar these are more like "metallized" wings to use a term from the 1950's. The rivets aren't loaded anything like an RV. Wing loading is less, too. An Avex won't shear as the steel shank stays in place. I don't think brownbear's test is valid, sort of ripping,not pure shear. The only place where the rivets have any pull on them would be going thru the skins into the ribs, and there the thickness of the rib flange would be the limiting factor. If you're nervous there, closing up the spacing a little probably wouldn't weigh more than the skin savings.
    What's a go-around?

  35. #1835
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Thanks Sky!

    I can access the area from above if need be or from inside...just thought it would be nice to have holes on the bottom too.

    How'sthe weather back East? I have about 11" and counting.
    We had a nice freeze early then it thawed with open patches of water. Never was enough to walk on. Only one storm of about 10" which is all gone with a forecast of 56* next Wednesday. Unless we get a good freeze in the next few weeks, there will be no flying until spring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
    Doesn't flush riveting require heavier skins?
    Generally countersink for flush rivets with .040" or greater. Below that thickness the holes are dimpled for flush riveting. The shear strength is actually a bit greater with the dimples.
    N1PA

  36. #1836
    Lowrider
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    Spent the afternoon shoveling snow and running the tractor...no riveting. I'm seriously considering doing the prop blast area (first 4') with 426 - 3 at 1.5" and the rest of the wing with pulled rivets at 1". Skin is upgraded one size from drawings and I really don't think it'll be an issue. There are a bunch of aerobatic planes being built with pulled rivets...the Panther for one that cruises at 150+ and they seem to stay together just fine.

    Thoughts please.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  37. #1837
    Lowrider
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    Winter is still here...12" more snow and an 11 hour power outage which is very rare. Shop dropped to 47F and was dark until 1100 Local.

    Question for you metal wing experts...Trying to remember how I did this for my RV4 build but that was almost 20 years ago. Starting at the wing root working outward I believe the laps on the skin are made by slipping the next outboard skin under the one closest to the root, and so on. Sound correct? I'm doing a 1.5 inch overlap with 2 rows of 426 rivets with the 0.025 2924T3 dimpled.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  38. #1838
    marcusofcotton's Avatar
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    On the Bearhawk, Bob prefers the other order but says either is fine. He specifies one inch overlap with two rows of 426-4 rivets except single row with 5/8" overlap at the outer skin.
    Practicing open cockpit extremism

  39. #1839
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Marcus!!

    How do you get both rows on the rib or does that matter?
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  40. #1840
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Starting at the wing root working outward I believe the laps on the skin are made by slipping the next outboard skin under the one closest to the root, and so on. Sound correct? I'm doing a 1.5 inch overlap with 2 rows of 426 rivets with the 0.025 2924T3 dimpled.
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusofcotton View Post
    On the Bearhawk, Bob prefers the other order but says either is fine. He specifies one inch overlap with two rows of 426-4 rivets except single row with 5/8" overlap at the outer skin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    How do you get both rows on the rib or does that matter?
    Low, You will get a better fit since you are starting at the root end by placing your first sheet down tight first. Then the next sheet over the first and so on. If you try to slide your next sheet under the first your fit will likely not be tight with the possibility of some small puckers in the metal when it is riveted. Sheet metal is not nearly as flexible as fabric when covering.

    As I understand it your wing has one lift strut. That means that the wing skins must assume all of the structural torsion loads.

    Since he suggests two rows of rivets at each sheet joint, that implies that the two sheets are being structurally joined and not just a covering for the wing. The rib would not need both rows, just one to hold it in place. Since the last sheet would have minimal torsion loads, one row of rivets would suffice.

    Take a look in AC 43.13 for some skin splice pictures.
    N1PA

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