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Thread: Lowrider LSA

  1. #1761
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Kevin...I was pretty well sold on the idea but the "old bones" comments sealed the deal!! I'm looking for comments on the "foreign made" lifts...$1.5K sure is tempting but I'd rather not have something fall on my head either.


    Sky,

    I think you're right about brass valves and I have the same thing on my house system but the shop has plastic and stainless fittings with no apparent issues. One of the pre-assembled manifolds I looked at has plastic valves too so apparently it's not an isolated problem. One of the plumbers I talked to recommended a system flush every 3 or 4 years so that follows your thinking too. Hard water and some well water is really hard on cast iron boilers I'm told. Somewhere I read that type L copper lasts longer than other types but I don't know why.
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  2. #1762
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    In regards to lifts, there are chinese lifts with a good rep, the Bend Pak brand seems to be liked. My neighbor has Rotary brand made just an hour away in madison ,IN and they are expensive. He has two weight classes so he can put his diesel dually hauler up for maintenance. A friend of mine has a used car business and has a four post from Greg Smith that seems OK. He has cars up and down all day. That garage journal site has plenty of reading on lifts.

  3. #1763
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    Garage Journal has a lot of good info...must be old age but I get distracted reading about cool stuff in there...good site and time consuming!!

    The Greg Smith 4 post is one I was looking at since it can be moved where the 2 post is bolted to the concrete. They seem like they would hold up to a "once in awhile" use... I pretty much take care of the toys in the fall before I put them to bed for the Winter. The FC-150 I bought awhile back needs a lot of mechanical TLC to get up and running reliably. I plan to use it hunting this Fall if all goes well on the hanger and house...we'll see.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

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  4. #1764
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    My floor has had the same water in it since 1990

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  5. #1765
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    Guess there's no reason to change it now! Good bet based upon where you live you have anti-freeze in it too.

    Most of the system manifolds I've seen have a provision with hose bib valves installed so you can attach a garden hose and drain/flush the system. My system in my current shop has two, one on the return line and one on the supply side so you can flush the system without getting much air into the system. It's 7 years old and I don't think it has ever been flushed and it works fine. My domestic water comes right off the mountain and has some iron in it but is pretty clean so I'm not going to flush.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

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  6. #1766
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    My shop and house are both radiant heat, no antifreeze in either.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  7. #1767
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    Guess if you fire it up before it gets too cold you really don't need it.
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  8. #1768

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    Those hose bibs, with a stop valve between them no doubt, are there for initial charging. Doesn't indicate a need for flushing point being. You want " dead" water in there, no antifreeze, no fresh water with lots of micro bubbles. Charge it and forget about it.

  9. #1769
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    Must work OK that way.

    There is a check valve between them and a micro bubble resorbsorber on top of the expansion tank. I won't dispute the antifreeze but the plumber I talked to says he loves it when people don't put antifreeze in the system then take off all winter to join the snow birds down south. When they return to find out that the power went off and the system didn't reset and froze up and he makes big bucks off it. Antifreeze makes sense to me anyway.

    There must be dozens of different ways to set up hydronic systems. I just want a simple one that works.
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  10. #1770
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Must work OK that way.

    There is a check valve between them and a micro bubble resorbsorber on top of the expansion tank. I won't dispute the antifreeze but the plumber I talked to says he loves it when people don't put antifreeze in the system then take off all winter to join the snow birds down south. When they return to find out that the power went off and the system didn't reset and froze up and he makes big bucks off it. Antifreeze makes sense to me anyway.

    There must be dozens of different ways to set up hydronic systems. I just want a simple one that works.
    you can see in the back ground how I did it was simple all Menards parts.
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  11. #1771
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    Nice Larry!! That's what I want...simple and it works. Nice fuselage too!!

    I still think I want to use an electric heater, but then I can't run it off my generator if the electric goes off. We don't loose power very often but where we're moving has overhead electric with trees everywhere so I can certainly see the advantage of gas. As Sky mention, when the price of propane went way up a few years back it got VERY expensive to be comfortable...wish we had natural gas.

    Courier,

    I spent some time yesterday looking at places I could put a solar collector. On the front of the hanger which faces South looks like the best place but it would be maybe a 100' back and down to the hydronic controls and it would loose a lot of heat on the way there even if insulated tube. How far does your water flow from the collector to the tank? What size pump and line are you using?
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  12. #1772

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    My hangar was built with this in mind, the roof is true south. My panels are on the hangar roof, so I have about 40' total of line to the heat exchanger in the shop bathroom where the rad floor stuff is. I have a DC circ pump, powered by a PV panel: sun is out, I'm making hot water AND electricity to run the pump, simple and reliable.

    Pretty far to be practical. Another disadvantage of thermal solar as compared to solar electric. One thing about thermal (hot water) solar panels, they don't do a thing during the non heating months, whereas solar electric works all year. At my crane yard in town I am already showing I have accumulated enough KWH to fully offset 50% of my next year heating electrical loads, and I still have all summer to go to build more credits. Next winter I'll be heating the crane shed 100% with KWH's made during the warmer months. The utility stores this power for me, in effect, in their system at 100% efficiency, I get every single watt I put in, back. For me, the utility is like a giant battery of infinite size and 100% efficiency, it is really hard to beat, one of those "simpler is better" things. My 5 buck a month basic fee charge covers this, what a deal! I was a big proponent of solar thermal systems in the past, but now with the lower prices of PV, I'd re think using thermal and just "go electric."

    BTW, I have natural gas plumbed right to my crane shed, they did that for free when I built. I have never installed the meter, I'd rather make my own power using my own equipment I have paid in full. I don't worry much about the power going off, it never is off for long enough to matter. If it is, it means Armageddon and I don't worry about that either. Since I've been grid tied, 9 years now, (with no backup, grid down, I'm sitting in the dark like every one else) the power has gone off for 3 or 4 hrs at the longest, and that was the middle of the night so I didn't even notice. An hour or two here and there, just isn't worth gearing up for. Longer then that, it's probably WWIII or something and heating the hangar won't matter much.
    Last edited by courierguy; 05-17-2016 at 03:36 PM.

  13. #1773
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    Wow, and you got tax credit for all that stuff too!! You're right, it pays to sell to the utility for sure. We lost power for 5 days in that big wind storm last Summer so I ran the generator the entire time and fortunately I had lots of gas at home because all the gas stations nearby were out of power too and couldn't pump. Only 2 days in November when Spokane got hit real hard and having overhead lines where I'm moving doesn't give me a warm feeling regarding power outages. We did fine here but if I go to electric water heater my generator won't handle it. Maybe I should add in a propane standby heater to the system.

    Well, it looks like the practical use of solar for hot (warm) water is a bust. I have three more 18" Doug Fir to take out and I'm pretty much ready to start grading and ground prep for footers. I ordered 70 sheets of 2" Dow insulation so I'm getting ready to do a lot of bending over to tie down the PEX. Progress is a wonderful thing!!
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  14. #1774
    Larry G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    I ordered 70 sheets of 2" Dow insulation so I'm getting ready to do a lot of bending over to tie down the PEX. Progress is a wonderful thing!!
    They make a tool for stapling the Pex to the foam you don't have to bend over it is well worth it to buy. Menards And if you buy the Pex from them you can send in your layout of your hanger they will send you back a layout of how your Pex should be to get the correct lengths all the same.

  15. #1775
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    Thanks for reminding me Larry!! Someone else told me about them and I guess I forgot. We don't have a Menard's here but maybe Home Depot or Lowes might have them. I already bought the PEX from a plumbing wholesaler and just today I bought 700 12" wire ties...they don't spoil I guess.

    I found them...how far apart do you place them? Not a cheap tool but better than a sore back for sure!!
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  16. #1776

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    4' or so spacing between staples. Easiest to roll the tubing out first. One staple to hold the beginning end, leave long, then with three staples in the loop ends where you make your turns. Get all your loops laid out, go back, pretty up your spacing, put the staples and conduit ells on for the turn ups at the manifolds. In my opinion, stapling as you go is a mistake, you'll use a ton more staples than you want to, and when you screw something up, you end up tearing them out and pushing them back in by hand. Trying to staple them twice with the tool will jam it up. Use enough staples to keep the tubing from floating out of the slab and keep your spacing.

    Thanks,

    Jim

  17. #1777
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    Thanks Jim!!

    I talked to my concrete guy who says they have been putting down the insulation then 4" of sand then the wire with the PEX tied to the it and conc poured on top. He said they have been having problems with the conc. getting too wet on top since the insulation stops the conc. from hydrating down and with the sand under the conc. the problem goes away. I have seen a lot different ways to do this so I guess I need to talk to the county inspector and see what he says.
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  18. #1778

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    Your concrete guy has it right, zip tie it to the wire mesh, easy to use it as a measuring tool to get the layout you want. More then one way to do it obviously! Pressure it up with water before pouring solves the floating issue, plus you check for leaks, unlikely.

  19. #1779
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    I should have asked the question differently...is the method of putting sand on top of the insulation what most are doing?
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  20. #1780

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    Not around here, but it makes sense from a concrete finishing point of view. Your other good source is the concrete batch plant. I believe they can adjust the mix to keep your finisher happy without the issues he mentions. Myself, 5 times now, I've put mesh over the foam, and zip tied it. The stapler wasn't available to me. Whatever method, charge it with water before pouring.

  21. #1781
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    Just be careful when they pull the mesh up into the mix, if they pull it up too far the tubes will be at the top, tough to get it back down. You want them in the middle or bottom.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  22. #1782
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    Courier,

    That's kinda what I was thinking. The plant will usually do the mix to match the compression strength ordered but may alter the water content depending upon temp at the time it's expected to be poured. The driver can add water but only to match the slump requested. If it's too wet you loose strength and if it's too dry you can't work it properly.

    You're right Glenn. I watched a couple videos last night and all showed the PEX UNDER the welded wire fabric and most showed the use of the staple gun to the insulation with no sand anywhere to be seen. If it were on top of the fabric and tied to it I can see it float up some when the wire is lifted usually with a hook...bad idea IMHO.

    I really can't see a problem with using the sand over the insulation since it would add to the thermal mass. It would take longer for initial warmup but it should decrease the temp cycles that I see sometimes with my system in the shop. I can hear the heater kick on and off frequently during below freezing outside temps. At warmer times cycles are longer and I still get pretty even heat.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  23. #1783
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    In case you folks think I'm sitting around enjoying the weather, here's the progress so far:

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    May not look like much but I took down 81 trees total and did a little clean up while waiting for the engineer's stamp so I can get the building permit.

    I bought 2400 feet of 1/2 PEX and I'm going to duplicate the hydronics system I have in my current shop which I know works just fine. I'm going to start with a Tagaki Jr propane heater and use an on demand electric for the sink and shower in the bathroom instead of a tank water heater. Pilot's lounge is still under consideration...we'll see how things go and maybe just a couch for naps.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  24. #1784
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    Progress continues. The footers are dug and ready to pour next week with the stem walls to follow then backfill and so on.

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    Doors are welded up and ready to hang as soon as I get the sheathing on them. I built a jig and I was pleasantly surprised on how well they came out...square and straight. One end will be screwed to the wall and the rollers will carry the 4'x12' panels and will ride in the track bolted to the reinforced truss. The last four trusses 24" OC are tied together with 2"x 8" to help carry the shear load on the front of the building. It is my shop part that will be built first, then when I get the building permit for the house, the hanger part will be included...making a 50' wide and 80' long building all built with 2"x6" walls. The North 20' of the shop will be 16' walls and the remainder will be 12'. Heat and air conditioning in the shop but none in the hanger at this point. Floor will be insulated so can at least put in heat if needed at some point. No progress on the plane but some is being made on it's home.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  25. #1785
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
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    Low, What or how are you going to support the other end of the doors as you open them? The inboard edges are hanging from the rollers. The outboard edges are? It appears that the weight of the doors will cause them to kick in at the bottom with the outer edges dragging on the ground. Aren't this type of door usually hung at the center so that they balance? Maybe I'm missing something here? I hope that you are not.
    N1PA

  26. #1786
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    Hey Sky!!

    The building side is hinged to the wall (hinge at the bottom in the photo) and the two trolleys carry two panels each as they roll in the track. The trolleys will be adjusted when installed to balance the panels so they hang straight vertically which they should do once they are complete with covering on each side and 3" foam insulation inside. They will also have cane bolts top and bottom to "lock" them in place when closed. The top ones will be spring loaded to hold them in place and the bottom ones have a notch that will hold the bolt in the hole drilled into the concrete.

    The reinforced end truss is designed to hold 50 lbs/LF so it is way over designed for the task. Panels weigh 60 lbs each and the trolleys carry 450 lbs each. I don't think I'll need it but it will be easy to weld on some spring loaded wheels on the bottom of the two suspended panels should there be some sag in the truss at some point in the future.

    This is really just a barn door that folds so there is no need for the tracks to run outside the building. I designed it in my head so we'll see how I did when it's installed. If I get board some day I might put in a chain drive to open and close it. BTW, I have $450 in steel and a couple quarts of paint. The insulation will be the big expense. I did one panel per evening (first one was 1.5 hrs and the last one was 3/4 hr) welding and the hardest part was cutting 20' pieces of steel...otherwise very simple.
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  27. #1787

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    Lay blue board insulation under the slab/footers and up the outside of the footers heating the world is a money loosing adventure. I put blue board 4ft around my slab and have never had any signs of heaving.
    DENNY

  28. #1788
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    I don't think that I expressed myself correctly. You have five panels all connected as an assembly. The one panel which is attached to the wall with hinges controls the weight of that panel and the second panel. And perhaps the other three panels IF the panel attached to the wall is moved completely open first before the 3rd and 4th panels are opened. If the 3rd, 4th and 5th panels are opened first, their weight will distort the doors with the outer edges dragging on the ground. Unless there is a guide track in the ground or a wheel device at the edge which is away from the building.
    N1PA

  29. #1789
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I don't think that I expressed myself correctly. You have five panels all connected as an assembly. The one panel which is attached to the wall with hinges controls the weight of that panel and the second panel. And perhaps the other three panels IF the panel attached to the wall is moved completely open first before the 3rd and 4th panels are opened. If the 3rd, 4th and 5th panels are opened first, their weight will distort the doors with the outer edges dragging on the ground. Unless there is a guide track in the ground or a wheel device at the edge which is away from the building.
    Now I'm confused...the door panels are hung from a track that is attached to the reinforced roof truss and the panels do not touch the floor except for a "hair sweep" that is fastened to the bottom of each panel. The two trolleys carry 2 panels each suspended from the track. It's just like a regular sliding/rolling hanger door except it folds in 5 places instead of being pushed out beyond the edge of the building.
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  30. #1790
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    Lay blue board insulation under the slab/footers and up the outside of the footers heating the world is a money loosing adventure. I put blue board 4ft around my slab and have never had any signs of heaving.
    DENNY
    I'm doing the stem wall on the inside with blue or pink board down 30" and was going to do the entire floor under the slab but you are the 3rd or 4th person who suggested just doing the perimeter of the floor with insulation. Others have said do 8' in from the stem wall but you think 4' works for you. How cold is it where you are located? Even 8' would save a lot of money on insulation.

    Courier and others with opinions,

    What's your take on just doing the perimeter of the slab?
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  31. #1791
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    The trolleys are next to the hinges which are on one end of two panels. When folded the other ends of those panels are not supported. Their weight will tend to twist the panels towards the ground. The hinges which are fixed to the wall will not support the twist of the 3rd, 4th and 5th panels. It's the old weight and balance situation. That unsupported weight will kick the bottoms of the doors into the hangar and the other ends of the panels will rub on the ground.
    N1PA

  32. #1792
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    Oh, now I see. So you think they will swing down as they fold and won't be held by the wall attachment.

    I did suspend them from a 2x6 using a ladder and engine crane and they did swing some but I didn't have the wall end secured to anything. I was thinking that panel 1 which is attached to the wall will hold them straight...maybe not huh? I suppose I can suspend the panels from their center and not the edge which would solve that problem but would cause the panel to stack half inside and half outside which I guess isn't a problem I suppose.

    The idea for the panels came from a door that a fellow in Delaware had built. His design suspended both ends of the panel and it didn't fold, rather it followed around the track and stored on the side of the hanger. This took WAY too much wall space and that's why I went with the folding idea.

    I'll drill the center of the panel and play with that idea when I install them. I'd thought a wheel might be needed but I really don't like that idea unless it's necessary.Thanks for the analysis!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  33. #1793
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    I suppose I can suspend the panels from their center and not the edge which would solve that problem but would cause the panel to stack half inside and half outside which I guess isn't a problem I suppose.
    That's it, with the exception that the #1 panel would need to be 1/2 the width of the others if it is to be hinged to the wall.

    I had a hangar with doors similar to the Delaware fellow. They did limit the use of the hangar side walls and unless they were properly pinned at the bottoms would swing in and out in the wind. They also tended to get stuck on the frost heaves.

    Here are some images for what you propose. Notice that the doors which are hinged as you initially have proposed all have support of some type at the bottoms.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=fold...ijaFJpfpkjM%3A
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 07-05-2016 at 04:35 AM.
    N1PA

  34. #1794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    I'm doing the stem wall on the inside with blue or pink board down 30" and was going to do the entire floor under the slab but you are the 3rd or 4th person who suggested just doing the perimeter of the floor with insulation. Others have said do 8' in from the stem wall but you think 4' works for you. How cold is it where you are located? Even 8' would save a lot of money on insulation.

    Courier and others with opinions,

    What's your take on just doing the perimeter of the slab?
    Just the perimeter is fine if the building will always be heated. Definitely insulate the entire slab (and perimeter beyond the slab) if there is any chance of not being heated to prevent frost heaving!
    Practicing open cockpit extremism

  35. #1795
    Lowrider
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    So this one will be the easiest I think or just wheels.

    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  36. #1796
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Marcus!

    Safest is just do the entire floor but that goes back to using antifreeze in the tubes just in case it does freeze without heat. There is a chance of that happening however slim if I were to follow the migrating birds South for part of the Winter.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  37. #1797
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusofcotton View Post
    Just the perimeter is fine if the building will always be heated. Definitely insulate the entire slab (and perimeter beyond the slab) if there is any chance of not being heated to prevent frost heaving!
    I did one of mine like that and wish like mad I'd done the entire underside with styrofoam!!! The one that we insulated the entire slab on is at least 3 times as efficient!!! Never again will I not insulate the whole thing!! This is in NW MT, not that far from you.
    John

  38. #1798

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    Google "Radiant Design Institute"

    They have a huge collection of info about radiant floor heat, and offer a very affordable design service.

  39. #1799
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    Thanks John for reinforcing my decision. I was just driving back from almost finishing digging the footers and made up my mind to do the entire floor with foam. I know how cold it gets on your side of the Cabinets...when we get a shot of that cold air from Canada it always seems to 20 degrees colder on the East side.

    And thanks to Bcone too...I have used them for some research and they do have good info. I'm doing the easy way out by copying the system that I have in my current shop except for the water warming source.

    On that subject...anyone have any experience with the new "heat pump" water heaters??
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  40. #1800
    Lowrider
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    Well, there is progress being made...however slowly. Footers, stem wall and plumbing rough-in complete...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    We took a 5 day break and drove the MacGruder Trail that roughly follows the Nez Perce trail and close to the Lewis and Clark crossing of the Western Range from Montana into Idaho. The road was supposed to be a challenging 4 wheel drive only road but turned out to be something I could have driven with our CRV...pretty anyway and it's the only vehicle road thru Idaho's two largest wilderness areas. Camped on the Selway and caught ZERO fish but had a great spot to camp. We had Beef Brisket for dinner and a young black bear visited us about 0300 looking for leftovers. Great trip except for the fires on the Montana side of the hills which were threatening some homes near Hamilton, MT. Fireman were having a difficult time getting access to the fire and were letting it burn down the mountain until they could fight it. Those folks sure have my respect!!

    I have the hydronics control panel plumbed and as soon as I get the plumbing inspection we'll finish grading the gravel base, lay insulation for the floor and attach the PEX to the wire fabric.

    I really miss working on the plane but it's time is coming.

    Had an ooops with the backhoe digging a rock out...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Chinese steel no doubt!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

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