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Thread: Lowrider LSA

  1. #1041
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Low, That is an interesting report for a pusher engine mounted in a fiberglass composite structure. In your case, a five point mount looks like a good idea because the support from the wing structure goes through two diagonal tubes to the center cluster. The two upper side clusters don't have a direct connection the wing attach points. So, that fifth center point will be a help. Don't forget access to the components on the accessory case. Mags, oil screen etc. That will govern tubing locations.
    N1PA

  2. #1042
    Lowrider
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    Sky,

    I ordered tube for the engine mount last night and the center support is in the recipe. I want to keep the engine as far back as possible but still need to keep CG in balance so I'm considering the swing out mount to give easy access to the back of the engine and firewall mounted items. With the 5th point tied to the center of the firewall it makes 3 bolts to pull to allow the engine to swing out when needed. I really don't see that as a problem and it would probably require an engine crane to get things aligned again.

    Most of the swing out mounts I've seen are hinged on the right side. Does P factor have a bearing on which way the engine swings or is it just because most of us are right handed? Since I'm starting with a clean slate I can pretty much place things on the firewall to make them accessible either way it swings. Any thoughts there? I would use 0.250 x 1.50" 4130 to make the hinges.
    Last edited by Lowrider; 10-30-2014 at 09:43 AM.
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  3. #1043
    Lowrider
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    Any thoughts on VIP dynafocal rubber?
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  4. #1044
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    The engine can swing in any direction that you desire to design into it. Consider access to the bolts behind the instrument panel. The Cubs have a hinge fitting bolted through the firewall with the engine mount bolts going into the hinges making bolt and nut easily accessible and will allow the engine to swing either direction with the only consideration being the stuff which penetrates the firewall to connect to the engine.

    Judging by your picture you will need a hoist to support the engine when swung, since your mount positions are at an angle.
    N1PA

  5. #1045
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Any thoughts on VIP dynafocal rubber?
    Don't know anything about them.
    N1PA

  6. #1046
    Lowrider
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    I ordered the VIP mounts and they fit fine and appear to be pretty much like the Lord mounts that are about $60 more each.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I also have the mounting frame welded on for the L21ish rear window. It's 36" long and 16 1/2" high so it should give lot of light and visability for the back-seater and rear view for the driver. I used 1/4" track and 1/4" rubber gasket material and the 0.093 Lexan fits just right. Pic just shows a sample and how it fits the track. The fabric will fold over the top, bottom and rear end the the track will be mounted with small tabs and machine screws after the fabric is applied.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  7. #1047
    Lowrider
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    We finished up the window track on the rear windows and I'm planning to use the same track to hold the sliding sun shade I'm putting in under the skylight using kydex to move back and forth to block the sun as needed and would stow in the rear of the skylight when not in use.

    My original plan was to use pieces of light alum to support the kydex but the 1/4" track works so well I thought that would work well when mounted under the skylight frame. I'm planning to roll some stiffening ridges into the kydex to hold it up in place. I am concerned that "window/door open" flying could blow the kydex out of the track.

    I looked around here and other sites but can't find any others who have done this mod. I can't be the first since this seems to me that this is such a practical addition to the plane. Anyone else out there who has done this and how did you do it??
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  8. #1048
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    Lightest and cheapest shade for windshield and skylite.



    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dream-Baby-E...item35beed9278

  9. #1049
    Lowrider
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    Cub,

    That's certainly a possibility, but now my wife thinks the name of the plane should be "Dream Baby"...that's not happening for sure!! The tinted plastic that sticks in place by static electricity will work also. Still think I want something that is opaque under the skylight.

    I made some wing tip lights to use as recognition lights...red and green solid and white flashing along with the dome light on the top of the fuselage and flashing landing lights...all LED and will pull less than an amp. Not very pretty but I won't be able to see it from the driver's seat.

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    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  10. #1050
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    The welding looks good. I do see a couple of spots which should be done over if it was a fuel tank.
    N1PA

  11. #1051
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Sky...that's why we have Proseal!! It's 12F at my house...enjoy the warmth back East.

    Thanks to all my fellow brothers in arms for your service and may the spirit of those who didn't make it home rest in peace.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  12. #1052
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    I would not mess up a new gas tank with Proseal. Make it right at the beginning. One spot above the left red light, another above/between the white and right red and the third at the lower corner between white and right red. Just re-weld those spots and you would be fine. Make those three spots look like the rest of the bead. This is meant to be constructive criticism only if this were a fuel tank. For this purpose it is great.

    It's 60* here. Expecting it to get into the 30s by Saturday.
    N1PA

  13. #1053
    Lowrider
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    I don't mean to impose on anyone, but if you could check your pockets and see if someone has an 0320-H2AD crank in there. If you find one, please measure from the outside of the front oil seal to the face of the crank flange where the prop goes. My crank is off getting yellow tagged and I can't find the measurement anywhere. I'm trying to get things set up to weld my engine mounts.

    Thanks in advance!!

    Sky,

    I have one of the landing lights you suggested mounted in my left wing pointing in and down a bit and run thru the strobe controller. Wow...that's pretty bright and should also work as a landing light up close. The other light goes in the right wing in the same location, just outside of the strut attach point. Thanks for the suggestion.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  14. #1054

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    I have a b2b crank on the shelf, would it be the same?

  15. #1055
    Lowrider
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    Gosh...don't know but it can't be too much different and that should do just fine if you don't mind.

    Thanks Doug!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  16. #1056

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    outer face of the seal to the crank face where the prop mounts to. 1 1/4 inch plus or minus a few thousandths, hard to tell.

  17. #1057
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Doug! We're not building a watch so that should be close enough.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  18. #1058
    Lowrider
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    For the antenna guru's out there...43.13 (para 310) shows a method of mounting comm antennas on non-conductive surfaces such as wood or fabric skinned planes using a metal foil ground plane under the fabric.

    My plane is tube and fabric on the fuselage with alum skinned wings. I thought the best location for good signal propagation in 360* would be the center of the fuselage just aft of the skylight using the foil ground plane which seems difficult and delicate to construct. Apparently, you can also use alum window screen to create a ground plane under fabric. The ground plane should be equal to the 1/4 wave signal length or roughly 24".

    After thinking about this for several days the better location may be where Cessna and other metal planes place antennas, on the metal wing skin with a backing plate attached to the wing ribs. I would probably put it outboard of the fuel tank on the left wing and I only plan to use one comm antenna.

    Also, 43.13 wants 0.003 ohms between the antenna base plate and ground. I'm grounding the wings and all metal within the plane so the machine screws holding the antenna to the wing skin/backing plate should provide pretty much no resistance...right?

    What do you folks with real antenna knowledge think about this? Antennas have always been a "black science" to me and I believe if you don't hold your mouth correctly the transmitted signal is lost in space somewhere...may be fairy dust involved too.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  19. #1059

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    No no it's nothing crazy like science or fairy dust. I was told its voodoo and black magic.
    I have been looking at the flat strip antennae that mount inside the wing tip or vertical inside the tail fin. Havent been able to find any people with first hand experience with them though...
    Anybody else?

  20. #1060
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I was told by one of the owners of an aircraft radio manufacturer that the antenna would work just fine if it was mounted inside the steel tube fuselage. I never installed it so can not say one way or another. Yes there has been discussion on here by some of our (SCers) refuting what I was told. I'm no electronic expert by a long shot, but if your use is not going to be for long range communication why not? What do you expect the maximum distance of your communication to be, 50 miles? Less? VHF is line of sight. How far can you see in the mountains of Idaho? Go ahead radio guys, hit me.
    N1PA

  21. #1061
    Lowrider
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    Probably 20 miles or less in most cases. I've read about the antennas that are designed for the wing tips and also a vertical tapes that go into composite vert stab...usually to reduce drag on higher speed planes. I've also read about the less lead distance from antenna to radio means less line loss of the signal and better output. Everyone seems to have an opinion depending upon what they are selling, not all of which agree. I get lost (or board) quickly when the discussion gets technical in nature.

    I want a short cable run and an antenna location that gives good 360* coverage for transmission...that's all. Receiver coverage is usually pretty good if another strong antenna is broadcasting. I'm planning to use portable VHF nav/comm radio with 99% nav via GPS on a separate antenna mounted on the rooooof.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  22. #1062
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I was told by one of the owners of an aircraft radio manufacturer that the antenna would work just fine if it was mounted inside the steel tube fuselage. I never installed it so can not say one way or another. Yes there has been discussion on here by some of our (SCers) refuting what I was told. I'm no electronic expert by a long shot, but if your use is not going to be for long range communication why not? What do you expect the maximum distance of your communication to be, 50 miles? Less? VHF is line of sight. How far can you see in the mountains of Idaho? Go ahead radio guys, hit me.
    Some of the J3 guys have mounted them on a wooden stick and tie wrapped them on a vertical diagonal behind the back seat with good luck.

    Glenn

  23. #1063
    Lowrider
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    No ideas from the antenna experts?

    Glenn,

    I've given some thought to taping the wire antenna to the inside of the fabric once I get that applied so it would be easy to put a full wave antenna along the fuselage horizontally. Would that work or must they be vertical? What acts as a ground plane?
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  24. #1064
    Lowrider
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    No antenna experts I presume!

    Another subject...I have roughed in the push/pull cable to control my elevator trim tab and I'm here to tell you it works great!! No play, no slack, not the least bit of delay in the control of the trim tab. I can make very small movements on the order of an 1/8" and get exactly the same movement on the trim tab. These cables give very precise control of whatever you are using them to activate. They move with little effort to the point that I will be putting a friction control on the trim lever that will be mounted adjacent to the throttle. SO far, they are the way to go for sure.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  25. #1065

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    The tele flex type cable ( pretty sure that's what you 're referring to) have worked great for 20 years/2800 hours on my two different Rans S-7's. In my case, being used for flap control. Bit heavy, maybe, but they seem to be pretty bullet proof.

  26. #1066
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    I wouldn't make the trim with a 1 to 1 ratio between handle and tab. Its just to sensitive and you will chase it when trying to trim in cruise. A 1/32" of movement or less will be all you need between 100fpm and level. My Vagabond had 2 bowden cables for trim and took just a light tap on the handle to fine tune it. Tough in smooth air and a real pain when bumpy.

    Glenn

  27. #1067
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    Courier,

    Yes Sir, tele-flex. I'm using them for rudder, elevator, ailerons and trim. They seem to be the perfect solution for simple push/pull, although the rudder will be be pull only and the elevator is run by a bell crank. I'm using the PTFE lined case and they are slick as greased owl poop...I like em!!

    Glenn,

    Good info! I had thought I'd make a trim lever that has several holes to attach the cable so I can pick which works best after I get it into the air. The cables sure give immediate feedback too so I'll be able to figure out if they are too sensitive and I can adjust. Not sure why everyone isn't using them...they are easy to install and cheap enough you could replace them every few years or so if you wanted. I haven't weighed them, but they must be lighter than cables and pulleys.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  28. #1068
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Low,
    tele-flex, I get it they are nice devices. The rudder is to be pull only, that means two tele-flexes. Do I understand correctly that there are two tele-flexes for each control surface operating in "pull"? Or do the ailerons and elevator have one tele-flex each functioning as push/pull? If it is the latter, which direction of the elevator and the ailerons do you think has the highest flight load? Is that the side to which you have attached the tele-flex?
    N1PA

  29. #1069
    Lowrider
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    Sky,

    The rudder has a cable on each pedal which is pull only. The elevator has one which is pull in the up direction which I believe takes the most effort and actually, each aileron gets one, so they are pulling the aileron up and the opposite aileron will push down at the same time. The way I designed the control stick there is adjustment there and also at the bell crank at the aileron control rod so I can change the movement ratio up and down if necessary. I don't want the control surfaces to be too sensitive so during the "fly in" period I can make changes to them...same with the elevator. The rudder is 1:1 since my feet can push a lot and hopefully won't need a trim tab. Rudder shouldn't be THAT difficult to deflect.

    I don't know if there is a "push" rating on the cables but I did a couple tests with my old boat cables before I decided to use the tele-flex cables and found I can easily push a 25lb bag of lead shot in a coffee can across a concrete floor which is difficult to do with your foot. Not very scientific but it did prove to me they have significant strength in the push mode. The mechanical advantage gained thru the bell crank will also reduce the pressure needed to move the aileron in the down position.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  30. #1070
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    I'm curious as to what the linear expansion and contraction is with a 120F difference in flying temps. You might be adjusting tension every season?

    Glenn

  31. #1071
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Low,

    I am following your thinking. Keep in mind that the flight loads on an aileron are such that they float up on their own. The highest loads would be when pulling down. If it were me, doing what you are doing, I would attach the tele-flex so that it pulls the ailerons down and pushes up.
    N1PA

  32. #1072
    Lowrider
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    Glenn,

    The cable drive is stainless so I would guess any expand/contract would be in the "noise"...maybe in the ten thousands per foot or something like that. I'm sure that info is available, but I figured it would not have any effect on control surfaces since the "neutral" position of the stick or rudder pedals is very difficult to determine. The trim would work the same way I believe.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  33. #1073
    Lowrider
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    Sky,

    That's a good point and why I'm always glad you're around. I can change that easily...pull down it is.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  34. #1074
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I think that Glenn is pulling your chain.


    I'm also a bit uneasy with only one on the elevators. Which needs more authority, tail down for landing or nose down for stall recovery?
    N1PA

  35. #1075
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    You think Glenn would do that??

    I guess both are kinda important...I could put another cable on a bell crank operated by a rod behind the seat but then I couldn't sleep on the floor with the rear seat out...how important is that?

    How would reducing the balance weight on the elevator effect potential flutter?? The less balance weight forward, the less effort the elevator would need to be pushed down.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  36. #1076
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Sleeping on the floor is a personal choice.

    Removing balance weight for improved flutter resistance is a no no. That is just the opposite of what should be done. There has been a lot of discussion here about flutter. Are your elevators balanced aerodynamically like a Super Cub, TriPacer or Citabria? That balance area ahead of the hinge line helps to offset flutter tendencies and reduces the amount of force required to move the elevator in addition to increasing the surface area.
    N1PA

  37. #1077
    Lowrider
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    Elevator is just like the Cub, etc.

    Increasing the weight forward of the hinge would reduce flutter and make it easier to move the elevator up for a nose up attitude, not helping stall recovery...right!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  38. #1078
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Elevator is just like the Cub, etc.

    Increasing the weight forward of the hinge would reduce flutter and make it easier to move the elevator up for a nose up attitude, not helping stall recovery...right!
    I'm not following your thinking here. It's not operating against gravity. The elevator is trailing in the airstream behind the hinges. I'm not positive but I think that the forces will be the same in both directions. Some unusual flight attitudes might be different.
    N1PA

  39. #1079

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    My teleflex cable operated flaps are still rigged perfect, I don't think changes with the temps matters much or at all. Weight and cost are why we don't see them used more in ex.

  40. #1080
    Lowrider
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    Sky,

    I'm wrong about the thought that forward weighting on the elevator would change the effort required to move the elevator...disregard. Given a neutral weighting of the elevator, what would the best way to "push" the elevator...up or down?

    Courier,

    I'll weigh my longest cable, but I can't make a comparison since I don't have twisted cable, pulleys, mounting brackets and guards that would be used in usual control install. My guess is the tele-flex is less weight.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

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