View attachment 13113That's it with 31".
Lowrider LSA
- Thread starter Lowrider
- Start date
I've been working on my rear float fittings...tempered by a fair amount of bear hunting...and while sitting in the solitude of the Idaho mountains it came to me that maybe there was another way to run the float rudders instead of using the standard cables. Has anyone used servos to control rudder movements?? I'm thinking it would be pretty easy to put bell cranks operated by servos inside the float to turn, raise and lower the rudder and simply run wires thru the float and up to the cockpit and a simple joy stick.
Has anyone done this or is there something I'm missing here on why it wouldn't work?
Has anyone done this or is there something I'm missing here on why it wouldn't work?
knucles
Registered User
nevada
I think if you get the right type of servos or linear actuators , it would work.
I think there is a company in ontario canada making homebuilt floats , that is doing this. For sure they lower and raise the float wheels with the actuators.
There is a seawind by me that the owner removed the water rudder and installed a cut up , modified , electric trolling motor , built into the tail like a bow thruster on s boat. He claims it works great and he can get into shallower water without hitting the water rudders.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
K.I.S.S. Of course you could do this. But, why make it more complicated and heavier? Do you ever expect that you might operate on floats when the temperature is near 32*F? After you get in the air the water freezes. locking the water rudders in place.You will be wondering why it takes so much left rudder pressure to fly the plane. There have been some manufacturers place the rudder cables inside the floats. In the end these floats were not very popular. Go ahead and try it. I say K.I.S.S.
courierguy
MEMBER
Inkom, Idaho
FYI: My Datum (made in Canada, non certified) wheel skis for my experimental use some real light and powerful linear actuators for moving the skis/ lowering the wheels. They work great in that application, ice and snow not an issue. The designer used them as a lighter and simpler alternative to a hydraulic system, less drag too maybe.
Thanks gents! I'm thinking KISS when this came to me. Pulleys and cables seem complicated to me compared to a motor and wires. I was thinking motors and screw actuators to get the power without large current demands...not unlike the electric trim used on cubs.
It sounds like a linear actuator with good mechanical advantage may be an answer and might even be an approach to wheels up and down on amphibs. Hydraulics would certainly be heavier, but maybe more reliable. Flying in a salt environment might change my mind, but this sounds like it could work and save weight. Aren't most landing gear run by a motor to a hydraulic pump. They do have a hand pump as a back up thought.
I'm a year or more from getting serious about this but it is something to research and think about. Any other ideas out there?
It sounds like a linear actuator with good mechanical advantage may be an answer and might even be an approach to wheels up and down on amphibs. Hydraulics would certainly be heavier, but maybe more reliable. Flying in a salt environment might change my mind, but this sounds like it could work and save weight. Aren't most landing gear run by a motor to a hydraulic pump. They do have a hand pump as a back up thought.
I'm a year or more from getting serious about this but it is something to research and think about. Any other ideas out there?
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
A friend has electric up and down for his water rudders on his Aerocet Cub floats. It works.
I prefer the instant and simple cable for up and down. There is no lag with it.
I prefer the instant and simple cable for up and down. There is no lag with it.
Rear float fittings are done and I made them pretty stout and did some additional beefing (made from 0.100" CM) at that cluster so it should handle most things I can throw at it. I'm thinking it may prove to be a good place to attach a step on the right side also but I'm not sure I need the extra drag....we'll see.
Attachments
I was discussing engine builds on the Javron Cub thread so I figured it was best to move here.
I read a report on Peterson's testing of the 0-320H2AD...i.e. the 160 hp 0-320 auto fuel STC requires 91 AKI minimum. The Lycoming 0-320 H2AD engine has not been detonation tested and is, therefore, not approved in certified engines even though it has the same CR as the rest of the 160 HP, maybe because there aren't many of them. The same report noted use of 91 up to 10:1 with no problems. I looked for the report and couldn't find it again. I know it is not the same, but I used to run pump gas with corn in an AMC 360 with a 10.75:1 CR in my '49 CJ2A with no hicups.
I bought a first run H2AD and will rebuild it. I know all the problems with that engine and I had an IFR inflight engine failure with one so I thought long and hard about it and was convinced it was OK for my build. I'm replacing the single drive dual mag with one mag and electronic ignition on the other plugs and will build a 4 into 1 exhaust.
I would think with a fresh OH on a 160 hp, electronic ignition, good exhaust you should be able to push 170 HP pretty hard.
Any engine builders out there that can comment?
I read a report on Peterson's testing of the 0-320H2AD...i.e. the 160 hp 0-320 auto fuel STC requires 91 AKI minimum. The Lycoming 0-320 H2AD engine has not been detonation tested and is, therefore, not approved in certified engines even though it has the same CR as the rest of the 160 HP, maybe because there aren't many of them. The same report noted use of 91 up to 10:1 with no problems. I looked for the report and couldn't find it again. I know it is not the same, but I used to run pump gas with corn in an AMC 360 with a 10.75:1 CR in my '49 CJ2A with no hicups.
I bought a first run H2AD and will rebuild it. I know all the problems with that engine and I had an IFR inflight engine failure with one so I thought long and hard about it and was convinced it was OK for my build. I'm replacing the single drive dual mag with one mag and electronic ignition on the other plugs and will build a 4 into 1 exhaust.
I would think with a fresh OH on a 160 hp, electronic ignition, good exhaust you should be able to push 170 HP pretty hard.
Any engine builders out there that can comment?
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Are you planning to attach the cross wire to the strut fitting? Or, what is your plan for the cross wire attachment? You do not have a visible attach point for the cross wires.
I don't at this point. The only info I have on cross wires is for EDO from Kenmore on a C-170 so since I am not sure what float I will end up with, I figured I'd cross that bridge later. Should I need attach points at the strut I think it would be easy enough to do later with holes or whatever. Do you have a better suggestion?
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
The Cessna 170 has an all aluminum fuselage. Yours is a steel tube fuselage. You should use a type similar to yours for your model. The 170 has a strap which bolts under the bolt on fitting. This is the front fitting on my Cub. 
The rear fitting is similar. Basically all, except the early PA-12 and Cessna 140, require the cross wires so will need a place to anchor at the fuselage. There are a number of methods to accomplish this. The Cessna 180/185 used an eye bolt which attaches the strut to the fitting with the cross wire attached to the eye bolt. This should give you the idea.
The rear fitting is similar. Basically all, except the early PA-12 and Cessna 140, require the cross wires so will need a place to anchor at the fuselage. There are a number of methods to accomplish this. The Cessna 180/185 used an eye bolt which attaches the strut to the fitting with the cross wire attached to the eye bolt. This should give you the idea.Attachments
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Yes
For those of you who use an access panel on the rear of the fuselage, is it hinged or just attached with screws?
I'm putting an aluminum panel on the right side of the rear fuselage to allow access to the elevator attach points and trim control as well as the rudder linkage and my plan is to put a hinge on the bottom of the panel and use tabs and nut plates on the front, rear and top of the panel. I will also mount the ELT back there with an external antenna inside the fuselage so I will need to access that to inspect, change batteries and so on.
I'm also putting an aluminum panel on the bottom of the fuselage to absorb impacts from rocks and trash thrown by the prop. Other than a little weight, is there any reason not to just continue the panel up to the top of the fuselage on the left side attached also with machine screws into nut plates rather than using one piece of fabric on the left side?
Any thoughts will be appreciated as usual!!
I'm putting an aluminum panel on the right side of the rear fuselage to allow access to the elevator attach points and trim control as well as the rudder linkage and my plan is to put a hinge on the bottom of the panel and use tabs and nut plates on the front, rear and top of the panel. I will also mount the ELT back there with an external antenna inside the fuselage so I will need to access that to inspect, change batteries and so on.
I'm also putting an aluminum panel on the bottom of the fuselage to absorb impacts from rocks and trash thrown by the prop. Other than a little weight, is there any reason not to just continue the panel up to the top of the fuselage on the left side attached also with machine screws into nut plates rather than using one piece of fabric on the left side?
Any thoughts will be appreciated as usual!!
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
I use something like this:
It makes life easier and less time consuming to remove the panel. It also helps that I have a box full of them.
I thought about that too but I have a double handful of rivnuts and a few hundred #8 nut plates so that's the way I'm going I think. Cordless screwdriver with a clutch makes screws much less of a hassle that they used to be. I can't even find a regular Philips screwdriver anymore since I always look for the cordless. I've also stopped using air tools because they are so noisy and have gone to cordless Lithium tools...life is good with Makita!! I will use the finger tab jobs for things like the cowl and oil door.
akskibum
Registered User
Anchorage Fairbanks
OK, Any suggestion on how to transition from fabric to aluminum?
I'm thinking of something that would allow the aluminum to slide under it so air flow can't get under the aluminum piece while in flight. Just not sure how to do it or attach it to the fabric.
I'm thinking of something that would allow the aluminum to slide under it so air flow can't get under the aluminum piece while in flight. Just not sure how to do it or attach it to the fabric.
Spent several hours in the rain (don't ask) bending my wing spars and they turned out very uniform and just the right size as they should be. I'll spend the day tomorrow cleaning the edges and trimming to the proper length and get them laid out to drill and rivet. I still have a lot of work to do on the fuselage, but starting the wings gives me a feeling of accomplishment and a little diverse work rather than just working with tube and CM and a break from welding.
Still wondering how to transition from the fabric to aluminum on the rear of the fuselage. Any ideas?
OK.,..I'll tell why I was bending the spars in the rain. The fellow who's 10' brake I was using is outside his shop since it was set there when delivered and it weighs 4500 lbs and he can't pick it up and bring it inside. He is going to build a roof over the brake but hasn't gotten around to it yet so we worked under a tarp and used my truck tailgate as a work bench. Not the best of conditions but the results were good so no complaints.
Still wondering how to transition from the fabric to aluminum on the rear of the fuselage. Any ideas?
OK.,..I'll tell why I was bending the spars in the rain. The fellow who's 10' brake I was using is outside his shop since it was set there when delivered and it weighs 4500 lbs and he can't pick it up and bring it inside. He is going to build a roof over the brake but hasn't gotten around to it yet so we worked under a tarp and used my truck tailgate as a work bench. Not the best of conditions but the results were good so no complaints.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Generally there is a piece of flat steel welded to the tubing. The fabric is then wrapped around behind and glued on. Taut fabric can distort the flat steel, so plan accordingly. Then the flat steel is used as a "window frame" for the aluminum access panel. Then depending on the size and shape of the panel, it can be hinged, screwed, "quick" fastened, etc. Let your imagination go at it. Just be sure the the part of the cover facing the wind has enough stiffness or support to keep the wind from lifting it. There are all sorts of ideas which will work.
Thanks Sky,
I was thinking of using a folded over piece of aluminum on the front edge screwed to the tabs but I think your idea of a welded piece of maybe 0.032 CM on the tube is a better idea and would be make a more secure way of tucking the panel under, then nut plates on the aluminum to secure it in place.
I know there are lots of ways to "skin the cat" but I like using tried and proven methods when possible and appreciate your insight!!
I was thinking of using a folded over piece of aluminum on the front edge screwed to the tabs but I think your idea of a welded piece of maybe 0.032 CM on the tube is a better idea and would be make a more secure way of tucking the panel under, then nut plates on the aluminum to secure it in place.
I know there are lots of ways to "skin the cat" but I like using tried and proven methods when possible and appreciate your insight!!
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
If you do it this way, keep in mind that the turning action of the screws against the fabric can do some damage to the fabric. You could joggle a strip of aluminum and rivet it behind the cover plate to form a slot. Then just slide this slot over the fabric covered "window frame". This will hold the cover in place without any fasteners through the fabric. The fasteners, which could then go on the trailing edge, would hold the slot from sliding off. You could place this type of slot on two adjacent edges of a panel which would make it very stiff. Then, depending on the size of the panel, it might require only one fastener.
There are so many ways to skin this cat that you need to let your imagination run wild.
That's a better way to do it.
I have already welded tabs but I can still do the adjacent sides idea...with the top and front of the panel to hold it solid in the wind and keep water out of the back of the tail. The panel tapers obviously and is about the last 3 feet of the fuselage and will have slots for the horz stab front and rear attach points so it's not just a simple piece of aluminum. I'm thinking of rolling some stiffeners into the aluminum to make it less susceptible to flutter in flight.
I have already welded tabs but I can still do the adjacent sides idea...with the top and front of the panel to hold it solid in the wind and keep water out of the back of the tail. The panel tapers obviously and is about the last 3 feet of the fuselage and will have slots for the horz stab front and rear attach points so it's not just a simple piece of aluminum. I'm thinking of rolling some stiffeners into the aluminum to make it less susceptible to flutter in flight.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
I have an access panel under the tail of my Cub which I rolled a large diameter bead down the center with a Harbor Freight 18" bead roller. It did a nice job of stiffening the panel. It is not necessary to make the bead very deep.
That is the same one I have. It works well as a cutter also as long as you can keep the feed straight. I'm thinking several smaller beads on the panels but it isn't easy to keep that straight either. I have some pieces of 3/4" plywood to use as a guide that works OK.
