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Thread: Lowrider LSA

  1. #1681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    ...The flap on the other hand has about a 3/4" droop on the ends when the center where the control rod activates the flap is held in line with the aileron. I'm thinking that the fabric will also straighten the flap during shrinking as long as I use the straight edge to keep it in the proper alignment.
    Do you have the leading edge fastened in place? That "D" section provides the torsional strength.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    .Is this problem common and will the fabric do the trick to hold the alum frame in line??
    NO! The fabric is only a covering.
    N1PA

  2. #1682
    Lowrider
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    OK...you caught me!! The D section on the leading edge of the aileron is wrapped in alum sheet, the flap is not and It certainly needs to be to get the trailing edge straight. Thanks for thinking for me!! Not sure how I can look at the damn thing for hours and not realize it isn't done.
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  3. #1683
    Lowrider
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    Does anyone know if there is a standard or just rule of thumb to determine how much weight to put in as counterbalance on the ailerons? Should they just balance or should they actually be nose heavy to prevent flutter?
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  4. #1684
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    Now you are asking questions which are way above my pay grade. That is a flutter specialist engineering question. Did the source of your plans suggest any counterweight? A Cub doesn't have any, Cessnas do. I believe that a Bonanza has special requirements which need to be followed after painting. Cable tension has a baring on it, but you don't have cables. Perhaps just a little nose heavy would be a safe bet?
    N1PA

  5. #1685

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    Static balance (neutral) of the aerilons (and elevator) does the trick for the S-7. Pretty sure that's the basic concept for a lot of aircraft. Haven't heard of balancing them heavy, but what do I know.

  6. #1686
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    Plans call for weight but they show dinky ailerons compared to mine. I was thinking (I know) it may be OK with balanced without the control rod attached or neutral with no pressure on the controls. Speaking of cable, I tightened everything on the aileron today and surprisingly there was virtually no play in the control rod or aileron at the hinges...makes me happy.

    Courier,

    That's the way the elevators are balanced so it makes sense to do the ailerons the same.
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  7. #1687

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    Flutter is the elusive butterfly of death. In your case build as per plan. I read an article some years back that if airspeed didn,t exceed 143, flutter is not a problem. Knot or mph?? I wouldn,t bet my life though. I set my VNE at 130 mph on my LSA being pretty conservitive. During my testing period I slowly increased my airspeed to that 130 and decided that was fast as I needed to go.

    Don

  8. #1688
    Lowrider
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    How did you balance yours Don?
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  9. #1689
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    Low, Just a note of caution should you elect to install balance weight. Make sure that it is substantially attached to the control surface and that part is strong enough for the job. You do not want it breaking loose upsetting the balance.
    N1PA

  10. #1690
    Lowrider
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    Yes Sir!

    I'm planning to use thin alum tube riveted to the ribs and weighted with #8 lead shot epoxied in place. Should be strong since it's spread between several ribs. I guess I could rivet it to the aileron spar but that's on the hinge line and wouldn't actually do much to balance the mass.
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  11. #1691

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    My ailerons are built like Pipers except 4412 airfoil. call me stupid but didn't balance them. Pa-22 use same aileron(no balance) and have a 165 vne.

  12. #1692
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    OK, I changed my mind after I got into the balance process. It quickly made no sense to me to use alum tube when I'm trying to add weight so I went to 5/8" cm tube filled with molten lead. It's amazing how much space in a tube full of lead shot is air so I took my torch and melted the shot and it took about 2/3's of the space for the same weight. My new method of attachment is a bracket welded to the tube to be riveted to the aileron rib and the remaining holes in the ribs will be filled with RTV. I believe this will do a fine job of holding the tube in place and should as an added benefit provide vibration dampening inside the aileron.

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    Top is the tubes and bottom is balanced aileron.
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  13. #1693
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    Finally got the other aileron balanced and they came out within 2 oz of each other which I take as a positive thing. Just painted the weights and when they are dry I'll install them in the nose of the ailerons.

    Started to wrap the nose of the left flap and ran out of 426 rivets so a quick order to ACS will fix that problem.

    Also waiting for CM straps for my fuel tank bays. Question...what seems to be the best material to use to cushion the tanks from the straps? There will be three 1" straps top and bottom which will suspend the tanks between the front and rear wing spars. I was going to use anti chafe tape but it seems it will compress after awhile and will loose the cushion factor. How about reasonably dense rubber strips??

    Almost forgot...I noticed the latest Jabiru LSA has cute little winglets on their wings...wonder if they would help on mine?
    Last edited by Lowrider; 03-10-2016 at 08:38 PM.
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  14. #1694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    ... Question...what seems to be the best material to use to cushion the tanks from the straps? There will be three 1" straps top and bottom which will suspend the tanks between the front and rear wing spars. I was going to use anti chafe tape but it seems it will compress after awhile and will loose the cushion factor. How about reasonably dense rubber strips??
    I used felt. Not for a cushion but for anti-chafe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Almost forgot...I noticed the latest Jabiru LSA has cute little winglets on their wings...wonder if they would help on mine?
    Fly it first since you have no idea of what is going on out there. That is something you can test later after you have a performance base line. My suspicion is that you will never know the difference.
    N1PA

  15. #1695
    Lowrider
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    Felt it is.

    Fuel tank access panel...top or bottom of the wing?? I think Cessna puts them on the top and it seems much easier to pull the tank and easier to use the screw driver on the top than overhead for a bottom panel. Top panel can allow water in if it's not properly sealed. Any thoughts?
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  16. #1696
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    Most airplanes use a top access, much easier to manage installation and for structural support of the tank. The top panels aren't generally sealed. Just make a drain hole in the lower inboard corner. Use adequate numbers of fasteners because there is a large lifting force on the top of the wing trying to rip the panel off. Is this a single strut metal covered wing like a Cessna? If so this tank cover will be structural controlling twisting loads. You may need to consider stiffening angles (ribs) on the underside of the cover to prevent distortion. Easy to make.
    N1PA

  17. #1697

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    Access panel on the bottom, as designed. Else you've got even more "shade tree engineering" to do.

  18. #1698
    Lowrider
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    Good point Jim!

    At this point since the wing is at a working level and not over my head so the install isn't a big deal whether bottom or top. I'm thinking of access after the plane is flying. I suppose since it's not something that will need accessed often the bottom really isn't so bad. Pulling a tank out of a Cessna wing is easier as Sky mentioned. Tanks are bigger than the plans by a third so the bay is corresponding larger too. This time of year I tend to want to avoid the shade since the sun feels real good...not shorts weather here yet but it's coming.

    Sky,

    Yes Sir, alum covered single strut.

    My plan was to put two "hat" braces on the bottom and the top of the tank bay made out of 0.032" 2024-T3. Hats would be 3/8" high and maybe 3" wide running from the front to rear spar so they will provide a fair amount of stiffening. As much as I hate screw plates they would be 1 1/2" OC. I was thinking of making the cover so it slides under the nose skin with the nose skin also screwed down with #8 machine screws into the front spar flange. That would pretty much prevent the air flow from getting under the cover and lifting it. I was planning on 0.025 2024-T3 for the bay cover but I can get some 0.032 instead or just add another hat on the underside of the cover which should provide more strength and cut out flexing.

    Off to the dump and get 100 gallons of diesel for grass cutting season...it's turning green already!
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  19. #1699

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    I don't think it would be any easier at all to pull the tank from the top than dropping it out the bottom. Think about how high that upper wing surface is from the ground, and having to get high enough to loosen the screws, etc., then pull the top cover, then bend over to loosen the attachment straps, then lift the tank out without bumping anything. Probably have to have at least two people and two ladders.

    Contrast that with doing the same process from below, maybe even using a stand of some kind to support the fuel tank as you release it, working by yourself... And as a bonus, you would have direct access to the fuel drains and the attached fuel lines during removal / installation, without having to make large-ish inspection/access panels in the bottom of your wing.

    The designer of the plane yours "vaguely resembles" really did know his stuff...

  20. #1700
    Lowrider
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    You're right Jim...and Mr. Gravity will help too!

    Last time I pulled a tank out a Cessna I used an engine crane and 2 straps by myself but I did need to use a ladder. Another issue with pulling from the bottom is that funny blue stuff always runs down your arms when you pull the hoses off. I see advantages to both ways.
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  21. #1701
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    I find it awkward working over my head while holding a bulky item up, loosening stuff, hoping I don't drop anything while not being able to let go because gravity will break something. One hand over you head while hollering HELP! If there is someone to hear you.
    N1PA

  22. #1702
    Lowrider
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    I feel your pain Sky!! My last event that ended badly involved a 150 lb automatic transmission that slipped off the transmission jack on my chest. I yelled a lot too and no one around to help. Eventually I was able to slither out from under it and escape...sometimes gravity is your friend and sometimes it's not.

    Thoughts of working overhead makes me think Cessna has it right...solid on the bottom and hatch on the top makes sense to me. Now to run out to find that shade tree before the sun goes down and get this thing engineered.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  23. #1703
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    Low, Since I am not familiar with the plans which you are using as your guide and apparently JimParker256 is, I'm assuming that there is a removable panel under the wing? It sounds as though this panel is structural. Which means that it must be adequately supported by fasteners around the perimeter as well as having panel stiffeners. It would be safe to start with the same fastener spacing on top as the design is using on the bottom.
    N1PA

  24. #1704
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    Jim is building the big brother to mine. There is a removable panel on the bottom and I am planning to move the panel form the bottom to the top with one size bigger material, #8 machine screws vice #6 with the same spacing.

    There is a lot of info on line regard his model and it shows the "how" but not the "what" on materials being used since most folks are using the factory kit that is pre-drilled materials that are just assembled. We have several in town that I've studied and I gotta tell you there isn't much difference between the LSA and the heavier one.

    I have upsized materials some in areas where I have made changes just to be safe but for the most part I use the same size as shown on the drawings. In this case I plan to increase the material on the bottom from 0.020 to 0.025 2024-t3 since I made the tanks bigger. I'll use the same supports and hat stiffeners but put in 3 rather than 2 shown. Tank straps are 1" 0.032CM rather than 3/4" 0.025 shown and I'll use 6 rather then the 5 shown...probably overkill but I feel better. I know it's adding weight but the 0-320 is a bit bigger than the 0-200.
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  25. #1705
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    Low,
    The important thing about the screws is that you have enough of them. Increasing the diameter likely is not the critical need. The important part is that the edges of the sheet are secure so as to prevent distortion of the sheet. You likely don't need the extra shear strength of the larger screws.
    N1PA

  26. #1706
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    OK, I'll check spacing again and plan on #6 screws and nut plates. Is my idea of sliding the cover under the nose skin worthwhile? Either way I would put a slight bend down around the edges to make a tight fit of the cover to the wing skin.
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  27. #1707
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    It's always a good idea to have the aft edge of a forward skin overlap the next skin for aerodynamic reasons. A slight bend on the edges helps close any gaps.
    N1PA

  28. #1708

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    Easy solution to the "gravity" problem is a pair of wood T-braces, like they use when installing drywall ceilings, only shorter. Probably cost you all of $20 to build... But if you'd rather try to lift something out of the top of a 7-foot tall wing (8-foot if you run bigger tires), go for it.

    As for changing the thickness of the metal skins... That is yet another engineering change that could have ripple-impact to other structures.

  29. #1709
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    Good idea Jim! In my younger days I've hung a lot of sheet rock but I always used my head to hold it up on ceilings while I nailed...maybe that's my problem. I had a coworker who was 6'-6" and he could nail ceilings standing flat footed. I had to chase him around with a little step ladder so I could put my end up and nail it. Now there are lifts that work great, even better than T posts. Being vertically challenged I need a ladder anyway.

    Sky,

    #6-32 at 1.5" O.C. and 0.025 should do fine with 3 stiffeners inside.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  30. #1710
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    Sky,

    I purchased the pitot/static tube that you suggested, the one that protrudes down from the bottom of the wing. I'm getting ready to put in a little stiff mounting plate attached to the rib at the juncture of the front spar. Question...I was thinking of putting it just outboard of the strut attach point...will turbulence from the the strut and possibly the tie down loop cause any issues with either the pitot or static pickup?
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  31. #1711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    .... Question...I was thinking of putting it just outboard of the strut attach point...will turbulence from the the strut and possibly the tie down loop cause any issues with either the pitot or static pickup?
    Outboard about a foot of the strut attach point should do. Don't remember which one I suggested.
    N1PA

  32. #1712

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    Just just my two cents concerning top tank access or bottom. Our bearhawk has bottom access, our supercub has top access. I prefer top access. I would much rather gravity helping me putting the tank in. Fastening the tank straps is much easier from the top. If I had choice of removing and installing tanks, it would definitely be the cub. Dave

  33. #1713
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    Sky,

    It's one with the L shaped pitot and static port about 6" long and will mount below the wing. I'll move it out to the next rib which will be about 14" outboard of the strut. I was thinking of next to the strut would reduce the chance of hitting it with my head. I still have a diamond shaped scar in my hair where I walked into a Cessna aileron while telling a student not to get his fingers caught by the aileron in a gust of wind...just trying to make the plane idiot proof.

    I'm with you Dave! I've been scratching my head on why the designer would have the tank fall out from the bottom of the wing since I first looked at the plans. Mine will be a solid wing bottom and a panel on the top of the wing to remove the tank which may never need to come out anyway. If it does it's not hard to do that way. Thanks for your thoughts!
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  34. #1714
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    Edit the position of the pitot thought. How far out is the wing strut attach point? If it is similar to the Cub there would be enough room inboard but outside of the prop wash area. On my Cub it is centered between the four lift strut and jury strut attach points. I wish that I had made the angle adjustable for some nose down angle. It is just slightly nose down. The airspeed is perfect throughout the range from 40 - 160 mph. Below 40 to the stall it is 5 mph high. If it were a little nose down I think that the stall speed would be more accurate.

    Also it is attached to a streamlined tube which places it about 6" below the wing.
    N1PA

  35. #1715
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    The single Cessna like strut is attached at 7'-6" from the wing root (attach point). The last time I had the wing attached to the fuselage I seem to remember the angle brings the strut fairly close to the bottom of the wing for a ways. I suspect mounting the pitot inside the strut attach point would have it in dirt air.

    I plan to give the pitot a 10*down angle to try to compensate for low speed reading errors. Would that be enough? The tubes are welded together and it would be difficult to bend them after mounted so I need to provide the down angle with the mounting plate inside the wing, otherwise it would just sit on the bottom wing skin back the length of the nose ribs at the main spar location. The other option is to use a straight tube out the center of the leading edge that would point down the 10* and find another location for the static port. Other ideas?
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  36. #1716
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    The Pitot on my Cub is in relation to the bottom of the wing up 1/2 degree. On the 185 it is difficult to determine since the bottom of the wing has a curve in it. It seems to be down 10 degrees. The airspeed on the 185 is accurate since it has been verified in FAA flight tests on this airplane.

    If I were you I would use 5 degrees and make the mount for the pitot tube adjustable. Then after flight test you would be able to tweak the angle if needed. 5 degrees would likely work fine.
    N1PA

  37. #1717
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    5* it its. I'll need to use a shim to adjust the angle since it will be very difficult to access the inside of he wing once it's skinned. A thin washer should be adequate to go either way, up or down once I've played with it in the air.

    Thanks Sky!
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  38. #1718
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    You ought to have an inspection plate near the pitot connections just in case there is some reason to get in there. For example a bug gets in there which needs blowing out.
    N1PA

  39. #1719
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    I suppose you're right...how about blowing it out from the instrument end?
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  40. #1720
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    Once upon a time long, long ago a mechanic who I was working with was given the job of removing a bug from a pitot tube. He crawled under the panel, reached up and removed the tubes from the back of the airspeed indicator. Then he blew the tube out with an air nozzle. He came out from under the panel white as a ghost. That is after the entire face of the instrument blew out all over the place. You can do it any way you like. I recommend an access panel in the wing.
    N1PA

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