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Lowrider LSA

No heat???!! NOT an option in the shop. Hanger will be warm when it's warm outside. I am putting a 40' wide door between the shop and the hanger so I can roll a plane into the warm side if I want to.

Damn Courier....I thought that was a hovering hostile space craft when I first looked at it...nice plane by the way!

I have been getting estimates on putting PEX in the concrete of the shop portion of the building and they all seem to come in around $9K on top of the concrete costs. Could easily use a hot water heater as you suggest and put in some sort of thermostat to kick the pump on when needed...maybe an on-demand electric rather than a tank.

Next idea was put the insulation under the concrete and use an electric geothermal heat pump to heat the floor...cost about $20K with 1/3 back on taxes if done this year.

Next idea is insulate the slab and use electric heat pump with high SEER in the 20 range. Very efficient and I get air conditioning in the summer if I need/want it. Equipment cost is around $8K plus install or I can probably get the system and do it myself if I can get the county to buy in to it...simple...hook up the inside and outside units with pre-charged tube, wire it and turn it on.

Still waiting for the county to agree to me putting in the whole 4K SF at the same time. Current house is on the market 3 days ago...anyone want to move to Sandpoint?
 
Heat? 26 years ago I built my shop and used Carlin black 3/4" tubing for my hydronic heat. Yup, same tubing you run from the well to the house. Still working like a champ, everyone told me it wouldn't work because it didn't have an oxygen barrier, that didn't seem to bother the cheapo $700 boiler that I bought as it lasted for over 24 years. The welding shop in town has the same but he used 1/2" black tubing and it also works great after 30 years. I put a 6" layer of sand on the ground then 1/2" foiled foam first.

Glenn
 
Hey Glenn!

26 years ago I'd have done the same thing and poured and finished the concrete myself with the help of some strong backed friends and a bunch of beer. Now, well, I don't bend as well as I used to and the concrete won't wait for my nap so I need to get someone else to do the "mud humpin". Let's see...26 years ago I was in Alaska having kids and that was a lot of fun!!!

A neighbor who is pushing 90 pretty hard has a system with straw for insulation with canvas on top and just sand in his barn to keep the critters warm...pipe is tar cover black pipe and he uses a wood fired boiler. He says he sleeps out there in his long johns when his wife gets pissed at him and is very comfortable according to him if he sleeps on his back to keep his kidneys warm. I've been hunting with him and I can tell you he snores loudly and has a problem with gas so I understand his wife's position.

The PEX is cheap, tough and easy to use and the whole valley here is sand but the 2" rigid foam insulation ain't cheap. For a 2K SF shop it takes about 1500' of tube in 300' zones and it needs to be attached to some 6" x 6" wire so it won't float up and then you need to pump the concrete since you can't back the trucks up on top of the tubing. It's not rocket science but does involve a fair amount of labor. I may do the electric heated route.
 
I put all the tubing down by myself after work one night, if you let warm water slowly run thru the 200' of tubing it is easy to handle and bend. I used 1/2" foam and just stake the tubing down till you get the mesh on top. I don't have any joints in the cement. My 12 loops start and stop in the corner by the boiler. The hardest area to heat is next to the edge so my 2 outside edge loops are 12" apart and the rest are 24" apart. Only mistake I made was tying the tube to the top of the mesh and won't do that again. If you leave the water capped in the tubing if won't float


IMG_20160511_180039776.jpg

Glenn
 

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OK, you got me thinkin. Does your 12 loops each have it's own connection at the manifold? You're using 2400' in 200' loops...how big is your floor? I may have figured too little tube. What temp is your heating water? Is there rebar over the top of the tubes? I was thinking saw cuts into sections where there is no tube running under the cut so it can't be effected if the joint cracks. What's your heat source? Enough questions I guess!
 
Lowrider, if you want some additional reading on heated floors head on over to garagejournal dot com and do a little search. You can come up with lots of pictures and 50 other ways to skin the cat. All interesting to me. I wish I would've heated the floor in my shop when I built it but didn't. If I ever build another you can bet I will.
 
Pix of my 12' x 40' door with ten 48" panels that will separate the shop from the hanger and will run on a trolley and fold up at each wall with 5 panels on each side. They will be insulted with 3" rigid foam and will be covered with something yet to be determined:

hangr doors 001.jpg
 

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Lowrider said:
OK, you got me thinkin. Does your 12 loops each have it's own connection at the manifold? You're using 2400' in 200' loops...how big is your floor? I may have figured too little tube. What temp is your heating water? Is there rebar over the top of the tubes? I was thinking saw cuts into sections where there is no tube running under the cut so it can't be effected if the joint cracks. What's your heat source? Enough questions I guess!
Click to expand...

Yes, each loop has Its own, I had to solder my manifolds up, over 200 joints, nowaday you can buy one hydroformed already made. 36x48 floor, I think about 1000' of tubing, loops get smaller as you get to the middle. I also swithched the flow direction every other loop to mimimize cooling in the loops. I run 145F water temp. No rebar only wire mats. I didn't put any cuts in my floor because we made the mistske of putting tubing on top of wire and when the wire got pulled up we had no way of telling how far down the tubing was. I don't have any cracks you can see. I had a cheap Burnam cast steel boiler. Biggest mistake you can do is not putting tubing in floor. I now wish I had done my sidewalks, keep them at 34f and never shovel snow again

Glenn
 
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Thanks Glenn!! Good to get info from someone who has been there!

The water temp when I moved in was 180F and after almost melting my hands I cut the temp down to 140 and I saw no difference in heating and the domestic water was bearable. I think it would work just fine at 120F too.

I'm doing an 8'x30' porch with roof on the North side of the shop and I've thought about doing that to keep snow off there because it takes forever to melt in the Spring. My current shop faces South and it almost never has a build up of snow. My Hanger door will face South.

Lots of info out there on do it yourself systems. When I see the same info in 10 different sources I tend to believe it...otherwise everyone has an opinion.
 
You're better off running more water per min at a cooler temp, for longer, then less water per min at a higher temp. I run the shop and home circuits at less then 100. Think about it: its a lot easier to make 100 degree water ( however) but more of it, then lesser amounts of hotter water. Like going faster just a little takes lots more power,
Its more efficient to keep the input water to around 20 degrees above the desired slab temp, 60 to 80 depending on use, so 100 degree input is plenty and more efficient. My crane shed loop never gets above 75, plenty hot to keep it in the 50's, and relatively easy to produce.
 
Shot of the current shop system:
hydronics 002.jpg

7 zones for 2100 SF so I guess they are 300 LF each. The Tagaki heater is 140,000 BTU and keeps the shop at 60F regardless of outside temp but it does use some propane on the cold days...regardless, my toes are warm! This system is dead simple and works great so it should serve me just fine but I think I will go with Electric next time. I have run this system off my 3500 watt generator at times of power outage. The house system needs a 5KW to run the heat and other things inside until the well pump kicks on then I need a 7KW. Sure nice to have hot water when the power goes out.
 

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Courier,

That seems to be the way the new systems are designed which is why they seem to do just fine with an on demand electric heater. Not sure what the BTU rating may be but it takes a 30A 220 circuit and they are around 98% efficient.
 
If you have an off peak or dual fuel reduced electrical rate from your power company, I would advise going the electrical route. I wouldn't go with an electric water heater. Look at Thermolec, or Electroboiler brand electric boilers. The recovery time for an electric tank type water heater keeps it from doing a very good job. The temps for bare concrete should be around 100 degrees or less. Use 2" foam under the slab and around the perimeter of the bell footings on the outside. Staple the tubing to the foam, wire mesh/rebar over top of that. The staples are plastic. Malco is the brand name of the stapler. No bending over. I've done many slabs myself this way. Buy 300' rolls of 1/2" O2 barrier pex. 12" centers for spacing 1) 6" on center around the perimeter. If you keep all your loops close to 300', the pump you use won't have to overcome high friction loss and is considerably cheaper. Don't get fancy with the number of zones. You can make up the manifolds yourself, but it might be worth the cost to buy them. The reason I say this is because they come with throttling valves, flow meters, and thermometers built in. You'll want all your loops to flow 1/2gal-3/4gal per minute and be pretty well balanced. Not rocket science, but might be worth hiring it out to be sure it works in the end and isn't up to you to make it right. A local contractor might work with you and let you do the bull work in the slab.

Thanks,

Jim
 
Thanks Jim!

I spent a couple hours tonight looking at Radiantec and they seem to have all the answers. I haven't priced their stuff yet but getting something that is "plug and play" has a lot of appeal to me. They seem to like 7/8" Smart PEX rather than the thicker 1/2" PEX since it is more efficient according to them. More research while I'm dealing with trees and stumps.
 
Ya got me....maybe in H2O the oxygen atom is bonded to hydrogen atoms, where in the air it is free to act as an oxidizer which will support combustion or corrosion. But then it's been about 100 years or so since I took chemistry. Apparently, in open systems it's not a concern so if I use an on demand heater it won't be an issue. I'm putting in a bathroom in the shop with a shower in case my wife gets pissed at me about something. #2 and 3 sons want a pilot's lounge in there too with a wet bar and couches...not sure about that part.

I am raising the North 20' to a 16' wall height in case I want to put in a loft but it will most likely just be used to hang kayaks and canoes from the trusses. Ceiling get OSB and R40+ blown in insulation. I'm also setting that area up for exhaust fans where I can put up a temp paint booth and I want to set the hydronics so I can raise the temperature there while painting in cold weather. I'm pretty much sold on Stewart's paint but there are other things that might need venting of fumes and this will allow filtered air to enter and exhaust outside. Fan will be on the intake side to reduce explosion issues.
 
Apparently there is quite a difference of opinion on using water heaters, either tank or on demand to supply warmed water to the tubes. Two plumbers say the water heaters won't last 5 years. Well, I can buy 3 or 4 water heaters for the price of one electric boiler. I'm planning a closed system with anti-freeze so I don't see the problem except it won't provide hot water to my sink and shower so a small little on demand heater would be in order. Everyone warned about an open system without anti-freeze due to the potential of water stagnation during the summer when the system is essentially shut down expect for domestic water use. I'm on a well now and have never had a problem with my current shower/sink use and drinking water from the tap.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Also, is anyone using an auto lift in your shop? I'm thinking about one since I'm not fond of standing on my head to service the fleet sitting on their wheels. I'm thinking about a Greg Smith lift that I can mod to lift 4 wheelers, mower, motorcycles, tractor, truck, cars and pretty much everything. Any one know anything about them...problems or good things?
 
I don't have a lift but my neighbor across the road has two. He is an A&P for UPS and builds corvettes and street rods on the side. I'm lucky as I have unlimited access to them. Makes a huge difference on doing maintenance on vehicles. My old bones appreciate the fact I don't have to get down on the floor and crawl under a vehicle. I highly recommend a lift.
 
Lowrider said:
I'm planning a closed system with anti-freeze so I don't see the problem except it won't provide hot water to my sink and shower so a small little on demand heater would be in order. Everyone warned about an open system without anti-freeze due to the potential of water stagnation during the summer when the system is essentially shut down expect for domestic water use.
Click to expand...
Apparently anti-freeze breaks down over time causing valves and joints to leak. I had anti-freeze in my system. After a few years some of the connections and valves started growing green corrosion on the outside due to pin hole leaks which seemed to be caused by the anti-freeze. It also diluted over time so I flushed the whole system replacing it with water. Also the water seems to transfer heat better than the anti-freeze. You might want to check as to how compatible the anti-freeze is with your components.
 
Thanks Kevin...I was pretty well sold on the idea but the "old bones" comments sealed the deal!! I'm looking for comments on the "foreign made" lifts...$1.5K sure is tempting but I'd rather not have something fall on my head either.


Sky,

I think you're right about brass valves and I have the same thing on my house system but the shop has plastic and stainless fittings with no apparent issues. One of the pre-assembled manifolds I looked at has plastic valves too so apparently it's not an isolated problem. One of the plumbers I talked to recommended a system flush every 3 or 4 years so that follows your thinking too. Hard water and some well water is really hard on cast iron boilers I'm told. Somewhere I read that type L copper lasts longer than other types but I don't know why.
 
In regards to lifts, there are chinese lifts with a good rep, the Bend Pak brand seems to be liked. My neighbor has Rotary brand made just an hour away in madison ,IN and they are expensive. He has two weight classes so he can put his diesel dually hauler up for maintenance. A friend of mine has a used car business and has a four post from Greg Smith that seems OK. He has cars up and down all day. That garage journal site has plenty of reading on lifts.
 
Garage Journal has a lot of good info...must be old age but I get distracted reading about cool stuff in there...good site and time consuming!!

The Greg Smith 4 post is one I was looking at since it can be moved where the 2 post is bolted to the concrete. They seem like they would hold up to a "once in awhile" use... I pretty much take care of the toys in the fall before I put them to bed for the Winter. The FC-150 I bought awhile back needs a lot of mechanical TLC to get up and running reliably. I plan to use it hunting this Fall if all goes well on the hanger and house...we'll see.
 
Guess there's no reason to change it now! Good bet based upon where you live you have anti-freeze in it too.

Most of the system manifolds I've seen have a provision with hose bib valves installed so you can attach a garden hose and drain/flush the system. My system in my current shop has two, one on the return line and one on the supply side so you can flush the system without getting much air into the system. It's 7 years old and I don't think it has ever been flushed and it works fine. My domestic water comes right off the mountain and has some iron in it but is pretty clean so I'm not going to flush.
 
Those hose bibs, with a stop valve between them no doubt, are there for initial charging. Doesn't indicate a need for flushing point being. You want " dead" water in there, no antifreeze, no fresh water with lots of micro bubbles. Charge it and forget about it.
 
Must work OK that way.

There is a check valve between them and a micro bubble resorbsorber on top of the expansion tank. I won't dispute the antifreeze but the plumber I talked to says he loves it when people don't put antifreeze in the system then take off all winter to join the snow birds down south. When they return to find out that the power went off and the system didn't reset and froze up and he makes big bucks off it. Antifreeze makes sense to me anyway.

There must be dozens of different ways to set up hydronic systems. I just want a simple one that works.
 
Lowrider said:
Must work OK that way.

There is a check valve between them and a micro bubble resorbsorber on top of the expansion tank. I won't dispute the antifreeze but the plumber I talked to says he loves it when people don't put antifreeze in the system then take off all winter to join the snow birds down south. When they return to find out that the power went off and the system didn't reset and froze up and he makes big bucks off it. Antifreeze makes sense to me anyway.

There must be dozens of different ways to set up hydronic systems. I just want a simple one that works.
Click to expand...

you can see in the back ground how I did it was simple all Menards parts.
 

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