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Thread: Lowrider LSA

  1. #1721
    Lowrider
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    OOOOPPPS!! Can we assume he blew out the wrong hose!

    What's another hole in the wing...guess it wouldn't need to be that big. I'll program it into the "hole plan".
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  2. #1722
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Yes wrong hose.

    Just cut a normal inspection sized hole in the skin big enough for your hands. You should have a number of these anyway for access. Rivet a doubler ring inside with enough straddling the edge inside the hole to attach the plate to. It will be adequately reinforced and flushed. Look in AC 43.13 for guidelines.

    Something like this only round. This would be OK also except be sure to make a nice large radius in each corner. If the corners are sharp they can/will crack from vibration. You will not be happy.

    2.jpg

    If you break the edges of the cover plate slightly you will get a nice tight fit.
    N1PA

  3. #1723
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    I understand...just hate nut plates but I know access is better to have than not.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

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  4. #1724
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Try these for sheet metal screws https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...ickkey=3046722
    TINNERMAN ANCHOR NUTS
    A6195.jpg
    N1PA

  5. #1725
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    I've been using Tinnermans on non-structural stuff like the floor but I'm not sure I trust them for a big piece of skin right in the prop wash.

    Speaking of the skin under the tank opening, how much if any strength is lost by a double rivet lap joint in 0.032 2024-T-3? It is 88" from the rear spar around the nose ribs and back to the rear spar and I have 48" pieces and I only need 4.5" wide piece so rather than a single piece I'd like to splice the two together. This is the piece that goes between rib 1 and rib 2 next to the fuselage which is the start of the tank bay. I'll be buying full length pieces for the bottom of the tank bay and the rest of the wing but I'd rather not buy a piece 8' long and 4' wide to only use 4.5" on each wing...not sure where else at this point that I would use that much 0.032.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  6. #1726
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I thought that we were talking about an access panel for the pitot tube?

    That big plate over the gas tank is a structural panel. You will want machine screws and nut plates.

    Look in AC 43.13 for splicing plates. Are you wanting to use one piece from rear spar to rear spar? They could easily have a lap joint at the spar caps. As I understand your wing you will only need this 4.5" piece on the top inboard of the gas tank. The full sized sheet on the bottom can start at the root rib.
    N1PA

  7. #1727
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    Sorry, guess I should have been specific. You're correct, there will only be a piece on the top of the wing. The bottom will be a solid piece of 0.025 from rear spar to front spar with two 0.032 stiffeners in the bay.

    Good thing you're around Sky!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  8. #1728
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    Is it .025" which is specified in the first bays on your original plans?
    N1PA

  9. #1729
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    0.025 between ribs 1 and 2 then 0.020 but I'm going to use 0.032 between 1 and 2 then 0.025 to the end of the tank bay top and bottom, then begin the 0.020.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  10. #1730
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    New Toy...anyone else have one?

    FC-150 005.jpg
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  11. #1731
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    You may have noticed that I'm a little behind on build work...well, I gave up on finding a flat smooth piece of land to build my own private airport on and bought a lot at Hackney Air Park that already has all those silly little things I was trying to find, like a taxiway, runway and even A&P IA's on 2 sides and a old hanger with a fallen roof and lots of wood rot and almost solid trees on the entire property. I've been pushing trees and brush into piles and doing rough clearing at the house and new hanger/shop area with my little baby Ford 2120 and with a little help of a couple Stihls, cutting up the big pieces. I have a 3 pt hitch backhoe on order to dig out the bigger trees and what seems like dozens of stump that I can't push out with the tractor bucket. Plan is for a 50' x 80' hanger/shop just off the taxiway and a downsized house too. This puts us half way between Sandpoint and CdA, ID and about 50 miles closer to Spokane, WA which seems to work it's way into my life more and more lately.

    We're also busy trying to get my current house and shop ready to put on the market and get rid of a lot of things that won't fit in the new house and dealing with #3 son's wedding 2500 miles away.

    I know...excuses, excuses...I am trying to get the current efforts on the Lowrider LSA done before it's time to move but I gotta tell you there isn't enough time in the day for it all so the priorities like getting building permits, estimates and work lined up to get the hanger/shop underway. Doing any construction in that county is not as simple as it would be where I currently live which takes a more common sense approach rather than the customary bureaucratic mandates. Apparently, they limit unoccupied structures to 2K SF until I file for a residence permit, then I can build the rest of my hanger. I'm currently in discussions with the Deputy Chief Planner to work out a compromise which should save me about $18K...but it isn't their money so no one cares...life should be simpler!!

    Couple shots of progress.

    Hackney lot 002.jpg
    Hackney lot 005.jpg
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  12. #1732
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    A jack hammer works great for getting under stumps to cut roots, even a small one. And a sawsall with a long blade

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  13. #1733
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    You're right Glenn!

    When you get old, sitting and working levers is the preferred method in my mind. I gave away all my concrete tools about 10 years ago and I haven't missed them at all.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  14. #1734
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    Don't make the hangar too narrow. 50 feet doesn't leave very much room on the wing tips particularly when you consider that a door will reduce that dimension.
    N1PA

  15. #1735
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    You're right, the 46' opening will fit current planes (36') with a fairly tight roll in and I think the next one will be RV-3ish with little short wings and a big engine that will fly inverted. When I go over 50' the truss costs go up significantly and the ceiling load bearing disappears with 80 lb snow load. I'm trying to stay with a 12' wall height to reduce the space heated some and that height is close on amphib floats so jumping to 14' can pretty easily be done with a 2 high block wall or poured wall above the floor to set the framing on. Looks like the building will be done in 2 phases, the shop half then the hanger half when the house permit is pulled. I had a long talk with a structural engineer this morning and apparently it's not wise to fight city hall or in this case, county planning.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  16. #1736
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    Has anyone used or had experience with Horton or Coolman Fold Tite hanger doors. I've given up fighting county bureaucrats and will build two buildings attached to each other. The first will be my shop with a 40' door to allow the planes to be rolled into the work area which will be heated and cooled and the second with have a 46' door to the hanger part of the building. I'm interested in using a stack door both because of cost but since they are manual they will not be dependent upon electricity. Yeah, I could you my generator but I like the sliding folding doors.

    Any thoughts??
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  17. #1737
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Like this? http://www.constructionmagnet.com/ru...ou-may-realize
    http://cool-airinc.com/
    http://www.google.com/patents/US3435877
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c00uA4AH3tw

    Is your door opening facing south? Frost heaves in the winter tend to bind doors which ride on the ground. Then when you add in the snow load on the roof, even a small deflection will "clamp" the door to the ground. Then also you need to keep stuff away from the sides so the doors can be stacked.

    How about one like this? http://ultimatedoor.homestead.com/ultimate.html
    N1PA

  18. #1738
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    Sorry Sky,I've been back East and doing tractor work on my property and missed your post.

    I kinda fell into a good deal...a neighbor just happened to have barn door track and trolleys off an old barn and gave it to me along with some wooden frame door parts. I've re-engineered the whole thing and will end up with something like a cross between the Tite Stack and Horton door only I'm building it out of 1" x 3" 0.065 rectangle steel welded together into 12' high and 4' wide panels. I went with that size to reduce waste and simplify construction as well as having the 3" of foam insulation to keep the shop warm.

    My door will face South and I'm going with a 2" x 6" stud walls with a full below frost line foundation so there shouldn't be an frost heaves to worry about. Interestingly, that construction on the walls was only $4K more than a pole building and will give me a tight and well insulated building that should cut down on heating/cooling costs. Concrete was about $10K more for the poured foundation but that should provide a very stable foundation. Now if I can just get my wife to make up my mind on which of 3 options for location of the shop/hanger I'll get moving out on permits and get started.

    One of my neighbors has a two piece fold up door and his faces North and he had to cut the concrete and put in heating wires to deal with ice in the winter. Those with South facing doors seem to be pretty much worry free. I'm toying with the propane hydronic heat augmented with solar panels but I'm not sure I have enough direct sun in the winter due to trees on either side. WIth evergreens it's either shade in the summer and winter or cut the trees and deal with the heat in the summer. Lots of folks here use propane fired radiant heat mounted on the walls near the ceiling but if you're working under a wing it's cold there...that's the beauty of the floor hydronic heat and your feet are always warm.

    Any other thoughts or ideas for heat?
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  19. #1739
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I have a radiant heat unit in my hangar which works well. When the price of gas shot up it cost over $1000 to heat it for one month. That was the last straw, I had the gas removed and just do without now. Don't do much work in the winter in the hangar anymore.
    N1PA

  20. #1740

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Sorry Sky,I've been back East and doing tractor work on my property and missed your post.

    I kinda fell into a good deal...a neighbor just happened to have barn door track and trolleys off an old barn and gave it to me along with some wooden frame door parts. I've re-engineered the whole thing and will end up with something like a cross between the Tite Stack and Horton door only I'm building it out of 1" x 3" 0.065 rectangle steel welded together into 12' high and 4' wide panels. I went with that size to reduce waste and simplify construction as well as having the 3" of foam insulation to keep the shop warm.

    My door will face South and I'm going with a 2" x 6" stud walls with a full below frost line foundation so there shouldn't be an frost heaves to worry about. Interestingly, that construction on the walls was only $4K more than a pole building and will give me a tight and well insulated building that should cut down on heating/cooling costs. Concrete was about $10K more for the poured foundation but that should provide a very stable foundation. Now if I can just get my wife to make up my mind on which of 3 options for location of the shop/hanger I'll get moving out on permits and get started.

    One of my neighbors has a two piece fold up door and his faces North and he had to cut the concrete and put in heating wires to deal with ice in the winter. Those with South facing doors seem to be pretty much worry free. I'm toying with the propane hydronic heat augmented with solar panels but I'm not sure I have enough direct sun in the winter due to trees on either side. WIth evergreens it's either shade in the summer and winter or cut the trees and deal with the heat in the summer. Lots of folks here use propane fired radiant heat mounted on the walls near the ceiling but if you're working under a wing it's cold there...that's the beauty of the floor hydronic heat and your feet are always warm.

    Any other thoughts or ideas for heat?
    Electric boilers are 100% efficient, no up the flue combustion losses like gas. No venting issues either. I heat my crane shed in town with one, with the thermostat set at 50 degrees I used only 1800 KW all heating season. My grid tied 2 KW PV system puts out more then that on a annual basis, so I heat for free. Once the chill is out of the floor, any kind of aux heat quickly makes it shirt sleeve comfortable. Having that slab cold is like a big heat sink. My home shop and hangar has a similar system, radiant floor heat powered by hot water solar panels, and a home made wood fired boiler. You can pole mount PV panels, put them up high and in the clear, no need to be limited to the roof. I have some up 60', all on used pipe so cheap.

  21. #1741
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    No heat???!! NOT an option in the shop. Hanger will be warm when it's warm outside. I am putting a 40' wide door between the shop and the hanger so I can roll a plane into the warm side if I want to.

    Damn Courier....I thought that was a hovering hostile space craft when I first looked at it...nice plane by the way!

    I have been getting estimates on putting PEX in the concrete of the shop portion of the building and they all seem to come in around $9K on top of the concrete costs. Could easily use a hot water heater as you suggest and put in some sort of thermostat to kick the pump on when needed...maybe an on-demand electric rather than a tank.

    Next idea was put the insulation under the concrete and use an electric geothermal heat pump to heat the floor...cost about $20K with 1/3 back on taxes if done this year.

    Next idea is insulate the slab and use electric heat pump with high SEER in the 20 range. Very efficient and I get air conditioning in the summer if I need/want it. Equipment cost is around $8K plus install or I can probably get the system and do it myself if I can get the county to buy in to it...simple...hook up the inside and outside units with pre-charged tube, wire it and turn it on.

    Still waiting for the county to agree to me putting in the whole 4K SF at the same time. Current house is on the market 3 days ago...anyone want to move to Sandpoint?
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  22. #1742
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    Heat? 26 years ago I built my shop and used Carlin black 3/4" tubing for my hydronic heat. Yup, same tubing you run from the well to the house. Still working like a champ, everyone told me it wouldn't work because it didn't have an oxygen barrier, that didn't seem to bother the cheapo $700 boiler that I bought as it lasted for over 24 years. The welding shop in town has the same but he used 1/2" black tubing and it also works great after 30 years. I put a 6" layer of sand on the ground then 1/2" foiled foam first.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  23. #1743
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    Hey Glenn!

    26 years ago I'd have done the same thing and poured and finished the concrete myself with the help of some strong backed friends and a bunch of beer. Now, well, I don't bend as well as I used to and the concrete won't wait for my nap so I need to get someone else to do the "mud humpin". Let's see...26 years ago I was in Alaska having kids and that was a lot of fun!!!

    A neighbor who is pushing 90 pretty hard has a system with straw for insulation with canvas on top and just sand in his barn to keep the critters warm...pipe is tar cover black pipe and he uses a wood fired boiler. He says he sleeps out there in his long johns when his wife gets pissed at him and is very comfortable according to him if he sleeps on his back to keep his kidneys warm. I've been hunting with him and I can tell you he snores loudly and has a problem with gas so I understand his wife's position.

    The PEX is cheap, tough and easy to use and the whole valley here is sand but the 2" rigid foam insulation ain't cheap. For a 2K SF shop it takes about 1500' of tube in 300' zones and it needs to be attached to some 6" x 6" wire so it won't float up and then you need to pump the concrete since you can't back the trucks up on top of the tubing. It's not rocket science but does involve a fair amount of labor. I may do the electric heated route.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  24. #1744
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    I put all the tubing down by myself after work one night, if you let warm water slowly run thru the 200' of tubing it is easy to handle and bend. I used 1/2" foam and just stake the tubing down till you get the mesh on top. I don't have any joints in the cement. My 12 loops start and stop in the corner by the boiler. The hardest area to heat is next to the edge so my 2 outside edge loops are 12" apart and the rest are 24" apart. Only mistake I made was tying the tube to the top of the mesh and won't do that again. If you leave the water capped in the tubing if won't float


    IMG_20160511_180039776.jpg

    Glenn
    Last edited by cubdriver2; 05-11-2016 at 05:13 PM.
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  25. #1745
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    OK, you got me thinkin. Does your 12 loops each have it's own connection at the manifold? You're using 2400' in 200' loops...how big is your floor? I may have figured too little tube. What temp is your heating water? Is there rebar over the top of the tubes? I was thinking saw cuts into sections where there is no tube running under the cut so it can't be effected if the joint cracks. What's your heat source? Enough questions I guess!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  26. #1746
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    Lowrider, if you want some additional reading on heated floors head on over to garagejournal dot com and do a little search. You can come up with lots of pictures and 50 other ways to skin the cat. All interesting to me. I wish I would've heated the floor in my shop when I built it but didn't. If I ever build another you can bet I will.

  27. #1747
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    Pix of my 12' x 40' door with ten 48" panels that will separate the shop from the hanger and will run on a trolley and fold up at each wall with 5 panels on each side. They will be insulted with 3" rigid foam and will be covered with something yet to be determined:

    hangr doors 001.jpg
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  28. #1748
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    Thanks Cub!! I'll check it out.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  29. #1749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    OK, you got me thinkin. Does your 12 loops each have it's own connection at the manifold? You're using 2400' in 200' loops...how big is your floor? I may have figured too little tube. What temp is your heating water? Is there rebar over the top of the tubes? I was thinking saw cuts into sections where there is no tube running under the cut so it can't be effected if the joint cracks. What's your heat source? Enough questions I guess!
    Yes, each loop has Its own, I had to solder my manifolds up, over 200 joints, nowaday you can buy one hydroformed already made. 36x48 floor, I think about 1000' of tubing, loops get smaller as you get to the middle. I also swithched the flow direction every other loop to mimimize cooling in the loops. I run 145F water temp. No rebar only wire mats. I didn't put any cuts in my floor because we made the mistske of putting tubing on top of wire and when the wire got pulled up we had no way of telling how far down the tubing was. I don't have any cracks you can see. I had a cheap Burnam cast steel boiler. Biggest mistake you can do is not putting tubing in floor. I now wish I had done my sidewalks, keep them at 34f and never shovel snow again

    Glenn
    Last edited by cubdriver2; 05-11-2016 at 09:08 PM.
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  30. #1750
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    Thanks Glenn!! Good to get info from someone who has been there!

    The water temp when I moved in was 180F and after almost melting my hands I cut the temp down to 140 and I saw no difference in heating and the domestic water was bearable. I think it would work just fine at 120F too.

    I'm doing an 8'x30' porch with roof on the North side of the shop and I've thought about doing that to keep snow off there because it takes forever to melt in the Spring. My current shop faces South and it almost never has a build up of snow. My Hanger door will face South.

    Lots of info out there on do it yourself systems. When I see the same info in 10 different sources I tend to believe it...otherwise everyone has an opinion.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  31. #1751

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    You're better off running more water per min at a cooler temp, for longer, then less water per min at a higher temp. I run the shop and home circuits at less then 100. Think about it: its a lot easier to make 100 degree water ( however) but more of it, then lesser amounts of hotter water. Like going faster just a little takes lots more power,
    Its more efficient to keep the input water to around 20 degrees above the desired slab temp, 60 to 80 depending on use, so 100 degree input is plenty and more efficient. My crane shed loop never gets above 75, plenty hot to keep it in the 50's, and relatively easy to produce.

  32. #1752
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    Shot of the current shop system:
    hydronics 002.jpg

    7 zones for 2100 SF so I guess they are 300 LF each. The Tagaki heater is 140,000 BTU and keeps the shop at 60F regardless of outside temp but it does use some propane on the cold days...regardless, my toes are warm! This system is dead simple and works great so it should serve me just fine but I think I will go with Electric next time. I have run this system off my 3500 watt generator at times of power outage. The house system needs a 5KW to run the heat and other things inside until the well pump kicks on then I need a 7KW. Sure nice to have hot water when the power goes out.
    Last edited by Lowrider; 05-11-2016 at 10:52 PM.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  33. #1753
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    Courier,

    That seems to be the way the new systems are designed which is why they seem to do just fine with an on demand electric heater. Not sure what the BTU rating may be but it takes a 30A 220 circuit and they are around 98% efficient.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  34. #1754

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    If you have an off peak or dual fuel reduced electrical rate from your power company, I would advise going the electrical route. I wouldn't go with an electric water heater. Look at Thermolec, or Electroboiler brand electric boilers. The recovery time for an electric tank type water heater keeps it from doing a very good job. The temps for bare concrete should be around 100 degrees or less. Use 2" foam under the slab and around the perimeter of the bell footings on the outside. Staple the tubing to the foam, wire mesh/rebar over top of that. The staples are plastic. Malco is the brand name of the stapler. No bending over. I've done many slabs myself this way. Buy 300' rolls of 1/2" O2 barrier pex. 12" centers for spacing 1) 6" on center around the perimeter. If you keep all your loops close to 300', the pump you use won't have to overcome high friction loss and is considerably cheaper. Don't get fancy with the number of zones. You can make up the manifolds yourself, but it might be worth the cost to buy them. The reason I say this is because they come with throttling valves, flow meters, and thermometers built in. You'll want all your loops to flow 1/2gal-3/4gal per minute and be pretty well balanced. Not rocket science, but might be worth hiring it out to be sure it works in the end and isn't up to you to make it right. A local contractor might work with you and let you do the bull work in the slab.

    Thanks,

    Jim

  35. #1755
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Jim!

    I spent a couple hours tonight looking at Radiantec and they seem to have all the answers. I haven't priced their stuff yet but getting something that is "plug and play" has a lot of appeal to me. They seem to like 7/8" Smart PEX rather than the thicker 1/2" PEX since it is more efficient according to them. More research while I'm dealing with trees and stumps.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  36. #1756
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    I never understood the oxygen barrier, whats water? Umm............H2O

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  37. #1757
    Lowrider
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    Ya got me....maybe in H2O the oxygen atom is bonded to hydrogen atoms, where in the air it is free to act as an oxidizer which will support combustion or corrosion. But then it's been about 100 years or so since I took chemistry. Apparently, in open systems it's not a concern so if I use an on demand heater it won't be an issue. I'm putting in a bathroom in the shop with a shower in case my wife gets pissed at me about something. #2 and 3 sons want a pilot's lounge in there too with a wet bar and couches...not sure about that part.

    I am raising the North 20' to a 16' wall height in case I want to put in a loft but it will most likely just be used to hang kayaks and canoes from the trusses. Ceiling get OSB and R40+ blown in insulation. I'm also setting that area up for exhaust fans where I can put up a temp paint booth and I want to set the hydronics so I can raise the temperature there while painting in cold weather. I'm pretty much sold on Stewart's paint but there are other things that might need venting of fumes and this will allow filtered air to enter and exhaust outside. Fan will be on the intake side to reduce explosion issues.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  38. #1758
    Lowrider
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    Apparently there is quite a difference of opinion on using water heaters, either tank or on demand to supply warmed water to the tubes. Two plumbers say the water heaters won't last 5 years. Well, I can buy 3 or 4 water heaters for the price of one electric boiler. I'm planning a closed system with anti-freeze so I don't see the problem except it won't provide hot water to my sink and shower so a small little on demand heater would be in order. Everyone warned about an open system without anti-freeze due to the potential of water stagnation during the summer when the system is essentially shut down expect for domestic water use. I'm on a well now and have never had a problem with my current shower/sink use and drinking water from the tap.

    Anyone have any thoughts?

    Also, is anyone using an auto lift in your shop? I'm thinking about one since I'm not fond of standing on my head to service the fleet sitting on their wheels. I'm thinking about a Greg Smith lift that I can mod to lift 4 wheelers, mower, motorcycles, tractor, truck, cars and pretty much everything. Any one know anything about them...problems or good things?
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  39. #1759
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    I don't have a lift but my neighbor across the road has two. He is an A&P for UPS and builds corvettes and street rods on the side. I'm lucky as I have unlimited access to them. Makes a huge difference on doing maintenance on vehicles. My old bones appreciate the fact I don't have to get down on the floor and crawl under a vehicle. I highly recommend a lift.

  40. #1760
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    I'm planning a closed system with anti-freeze so I don't see the problem except it won't provide hot water to my sink and shower so a small little on demand heater would be in order. Everyone warned about an open system without anti-freeze due to the potential of water stagnation during the summer when the system is essentially shut down expect for domestic water use.
    Apparently anti-freeze breaks down over time causing valves and joints to leak. I had anti-freeze in my system. After a few years some of the connections and valves started growing green corrosion on the outside due to pin hole leaks which seemed to be caused by the anti-freeze. It also diluted over time so I flushed the whole system replacing it with water. Also the water seems to transfer heat better than the anti-freeze. You might want to check as to how compatible the anti-freeze is with your components.
    N1PA

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