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Lowrider LSA

.... Question...I was thinking of putting it just outboard of the strut attach point...will turbulence from the the strut and possibly the tie down loop cause any issues with either the pitot or static pickup?
Outboard about a foot of the strut attach point should do. Don't remember which one I suggested.
 
Just just my two cents concerning top tank access or bottom. Our bearhawk has bottom access, our supercub has top access. I prefer top access. I would much rather gravity helping me putting the tank in. Fastening the tank straps is much easier from the top. If I had choice of removing and installing tanks, it would definitely be the cub. Dave
 
Sky,

It's one with the L shaped pitot and static port about 6" long and will mount below the wing. I'll move it out to the next rib which will be about 14" outboard of the strut. I was thinking of next to the strut would reduce the chance of hitting it with my head. I still have a diamond shaped scar in my hair where I walked into a Cessna aileron while telling a student not to get his fingers caught by the aileron in a gust of wind...just trying to make the plane idiot proof.

I'm with you Dave! I've been scratching my head on why the designer would have the tank fall out from the bottom of the wing since I first looked at the plans. Mine will be a solid wing bottom and a panel on the top of the wing to remove the tank which may never need to come out anyway. If it does it's not hard to do that way. Thanks for your thoughts!
 
Edit the position of the pitot thought. How far out is the wing strut attach point? If it is similar to the Cub there would be enough room inboard but outside of the prop wash area. On my Cub it is centered between the four lift strut and jury strut attach points. I wish that I had made the angle adjustable for some nose down angle. It is just slightly nose down. The airspeed is perfect throughout the range from 40 - 160 mph. Below 40 to the stall it is 5 mph high. If it were a little nose down I think that the stall speed would be more accurate.

Also it is attached to a streamlined tube which places it about 6" below the wing.
 
The single Cessna like strut is attached at 7'-6" from the wing root (attach point). The last time I had the wing attached to the fuselage I seem to remember the angle brings the strut fairly close to the bottom of the wing for a ways. I suspect mounting the pitot inside the strut attach point would have it in dirt air.

I plan to give the pitot a 10*down angle to try to compensate for low speed reading errors. Would that be enough? The tubes are welded together and it would be difficult to bend them after mounted so I need to provide the down angle with the mounting plate inside the wing, otherwise it would just sit on the bottom wing skin back the length of the nose ribs at the main spar location. The other option is to use a straight tube out the center of the leading edge that would point down the 10* and find another location for the static port. Other ideas?
 
The Pitot on my Cub is in relation to the bottom of the wing up 1/2 degree. On the 185 it is difficult to determine since the bottom of the wing has a curve in it. It seems to be down 10 degrees. The airspeed on the 185 is accurate since it has been verified in FAA flight tests on this airplane.

If I were you I would use 5 degrees and make the mount for the pitot tube adjustable. Then after flight test you would be able to tweak the angle if needed. 5 degrees would likely work fine.
 
5* it its. I'll need to use a shim to adjust the angle since it will be very difficult to access the inside of he wing once it's skinned. A thin washer should be adequate to go either way, up or down once I've played with it in the air.

Thanks Sky!
 
You ought to have an inspection plate near the pitot connections just in case there is some reason to get in there. For example a bug gets in there which needs blowing out.
 
Once upon a time long, long ago a mechanic who I was working with was given the job of removing a bug from a pitot tube. He crawled under the panel, reached up and removed the tubes from the back of the airspeed indicator. Then he blew the tube out with an air nozzle. He came out from under the panel white as a ghost. That is after the entire face of the instrument blew out all over the place. You can do it any way you like. I recommend an access panel in the wing.
 
OOOOPPPS!! Can we assume he blew out the wrong hose!

What's another hole in the wing...guess it wouldn't need to be that big. I'll program it into the "hole plan".
 
Yes wrong hose.

Just cut a normal inspection sized hole in the skin big enough for your hands. You should have a number of these anyway for access. Rivet a doubler ring inside with enough straddling the edge inside the hole to attach the plate to. It will be adequately reinforced and flushed. Look in AC 43.13 for guidelines.

Something like this only round. This would be OK also except be sure to make a nice large radius in each corner. If the corners are sharp they can/will crack from vibration. You will not be happy.

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If you break the edges of the cover plate slightly you will get a nice tight fit.
 

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I've been using Tinnermans on non-structural stuff like the floor but I'm not sure I trust them for a big piece of skin right in the prop wash.

Speaking of the skin under the tank opening, how much if any strength is lost by a double rivet lap joint in 0.032 2024-T-3? It is 88" from the rear spar around the nose ribs and back to the rear spar and I have 48" pieces and I only need 4.5" wide piece so rather than a single piece I'd like to splice the two together. This is the piece that goes between rib 1 and rib 2 next to the fuselage which is the start of the tank bay. I'll be buying full length pieces for the bottom of the tank bay and the rest of the wing but I'd rather not buy a piece 8' long and 4' wide to only use 4.5" on each wing...not sure where else at this point that I would use that much 0.032.
 
I thought that we were talking about an access panel for the pitot tube?

That big plate over the gas tank is a structural panel. You will want machine screws and nut plates.

Look in AC 43.13 for splicing plates. Are you wanting to use one piece from rear spar to rear spar? They could easily have a lap joint at the spar caps. As I understand your wing you will only need this 4.5" piece on the top inboard of the gas tank. The full sized sheet on the bottom can start at the root rib.
 
Sorry, guess I should have been specific. You're correct, there will only be a piece on the top of the wing. The bottom will be a solid piece of 0.025 from rear spar to front spar with two 0.032 stiffeners in the bay.

Good thing you're around Sky!!
 
0.025 between ribs 1 and 2 then 0.020 but I'm going to use 0.032 between 1 and 2 then 0.025 to the end of the tank bay top and bottom, then begin the 0.020.
 
You may have noticed that I'm a little behind on build work...well, I gave up on finding a flat smooth piece of land to build my own private airport on and bought a lot at Hackney Air Park that already has all those silly little things I was trying to find, like a taxiway, runway and even A&P IA's on 2 sides and a old hanger with a fallen roof and lots of wood rot and almost solid trees on the entire property. I've been pushing trees and brush into piles and doing rough clearing at the house and new hanger/shop area with my little baby Ford 2120 and with a little help of a couple Stihls, cutting up the big pieces. I have a 3 pt hitch backhoe on order to dig out the bigger trees and what seems like dozens of stump that I can't push out with the tractor bucket. Plan is for a 50' x 80' hanger/shop just off the taxiway and a downsized house too. This puts us half way between Sandpoint and CdA, ID and about 50 miles closer to Spokane, WA which seems to work it's way into my life more and more lately.

We're also busy trying to get my current house and shop ready to put on the market and get rid of a lot of things that won't fit in the new house and dealing with #3 son's wedding 2500 miles away.

I know...excuses, excuses...I am trying to get the current efforts on the Lowrider LSA done before it's time to move but I gotta tell you there isn't enough time in the day for it all so the priorities like getting building permits, estimates and work lined up to get the hanger/shop underway. Doing any construction in that county is not as simple as it would be where I currently live which takes a more common sense approach rather than the customary bureaucratic mandates. Apparently, they limit unoccupied structures to 2K SF until I file for a residence permit, then I can build the rest of my hanger. I'm currently in discussions with the Deputy Chief Planner to work out a compromise which should save me about $18K...but it isn't their money so no one cares...life should be simpler!!

Couple shots of progress.

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A jack hammer works great for getting under stumps to cut roots, even a small one. And a sawsall with a long blade

Glenn
 
You're right Glenn!

When you get old, sitting and working levers is the preferred method in my mind. I gave away all my concrete tools about 10 years ago and I haven't missed them at all.
 
Don't make the hangar too narrow. 50 feet doesn't leave very much room on the wing tips particularly when you consider that a door will reduce that dimension.
 
You're right, the 46' opening will fit current planes (36') with a fairly tight roll in and I think the next one will be RV-3ish with little short wings and a big engine that will fly inverted. When I go over 50' the truss costs go up significantly and the ceiling load bearing disappears with 80 lb snow load. I'm trying to stay with a 12' wall height to reduce the space heated some and that height is close on amphib floats so jumping to 14' can pretty easily be done with a 2 high block wall or poured wall above the floor to set the framing on. Looks like the building will be done in 2 phases, the shop half then the hanger half when the house permit is pulled. I had a long talk with a structural engineer this morning and apparently it's not wise to fight city hall or in this case, county planning.
 
Has anyone used or had experience with Horton or Coolman Fold Tite hanger doors. I've given up fighting county bureaucrats and will build two buildings attached to each other. The first will be my shop with a 40' door to allow the planes to be rolled into the work area which will be heated and cooled and the second with have a 46' door to the hanger part of the building. I'm interested in using a stack door both because of cost but since they are manual they will not be dependent upon electricity. Yeah, I could you my generator but I like the sliding folding doors.

Any thoughts??
 
Like this? http://www.constructionmagnet.com/r...-plane-hangar-doors-than-what-you-may-realize
http://cool-airinc.com/
http://www.google.com/patents/US3435877
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c00uA4AH3tw

Is your door opening facing south? Frost heaves in the winter tend to bind doors which ride on the ground. Then when you add in the snow load on the roof, even a small deflection will "clamp" the door to the ground. Then also you need to keep stuff away from the sides so the doors can be stacked.

How about one like this? http://ultimatedoor.homestead.com/ultimate.html
 
Sorry Sky,I've been back East and doing tractor work on my property and missed your post.

I kinda fell into a good deal...a neighbor just happened to have barn door track and trolleys off an old barn and gave it to me along with some wooden frame door parts. I've re-engineered the whole thing and will end up with something like a cross between the Tite Stack and Horton door only I'm building it out of 1" x 3" 0.065 rectangle steel welded together into 12' high and 4' wide panels. I went with that size to reduce waste and simplify construction as well as having the 3" of foam insulation to keep the shop warm.

My door will face South and I'm going with a 2" x 6" stud walls with a full below frost line foundation so there shouldn't be an frost heaves to worry about. Interestingly, that construction on the walls was only $4K more than a pole building and will give me a tight and well insulated building that should cut down on heating/cooling costs. Concrete was about $10K more for the poured foundation but that should provide a very stable foundation. Now if I can just get my wife to make up my mind on which of 3 options for location of the shop/hanger I'll get moving out on permits and get started.

One of my neighbors has a two piece fold up door and his faces North and he had to cut the concrete and put in heating wires to deal with ice in the winter. Those with South facing doors seem to be pretty much worry free. I'm toying with the propane hydronic heat augmented with solar panels but I'm not sure I have enough direct sun in the winter due to trees on either side. WIth evergreens it's either shade in the summer and winter or cut the trees and deal with the heat in the summer. Lots of folks here use propane fired radiant heat mounted on the walls near the ceiling but if you're working under a wing it's cold there...that's the beauty of the floor hydronic heat and your feet are always warm.

Any other thoughts or ideas for heat?
 
I have a radiant heat unit in my hangar which works well. When the price of gas shot up it cost over $1000 to heat it for one month. That was the last straw, I had the gas removed and just do without now. Don't do much work in the winter in the hangar anymore.
 
Sorry Sky,I've been back East and doing tractor work on my property and missed your post.

I kinda fell into a good deal...a neighbor just happened to have barn door track and trolleys off an old barn and gave it to me along with some wooden frame door parts. I've re-engineered the whole thing and will end up with something like a cross between the Tite Stack and Horton door only I'm building it out of 1" x 3" 0.065 rectangle steel welded together into 12' high and 4' wide panels. I went with that size to reduce waste and simplify construction as well as having the 3" of foam insulation to keep the shop warm.

My door will face South and I'm going with a 2" x 6" stud walls with a full below frost line foundation so there shouldn't be an frost heaves to worry about. Interestingly, that construction on the walls was only $4K more than a pole building and will give me a tight and well insulated building that should cut down on heating/cooling costs. Concrete was about $10K more for the poured foundation but that should provide a very stable foundation. Now if I can just get my wife to make up my mind on which of 3 options for location of the shop/hanger I'll get moving out on permits and get started.

One of my neighbors has a two piece fold up door and his faces North and he had to cut the concrete and put in heating wires to deal with ice in the winter. Those with South facing doors seem to be pretty much worry free. I'm toying with the propane hydronic heat augmented with solar panels but I'm not sure I have enough direct sun in the winter due to trees on either side. WIth evergreens it's either shade in the summer and winter or cut the trees and deal with the heat in the summer. Lots of folks here use propane fired radiant heat mounted on the walls near the ceiling but if you're working under a wing it's cold there...that's the beauty of the floor hydronic heat and your feet are always warm.

Any other thoughts or ideas for heat?

Electric boilers are 100% efficient, no up the flue combustion losses like gas. No venting issues either. I heat my crane shed in town with one, with the thermostat set at 50 degrees I used only 1800 KW all heating season. My grid tied 2 KW PV system puts out more then that on a annual basis, so I heat for free. Once the chill is out of the floor, any kind of aux heat quickly makes it shirt sleeve comfortable. Having that slab cold is like a big heat sink. My home shop and hangar has a similar system, radiant floor heat powered by hot water solar panels, and a home made wood fired boiler. You can pole mount PV panels, put them up high and in the clear, no need to be limited to the roof. I have some up 60', all on used pipe so cheap.
 
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